Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Lustrousstone on May 19, 2012, 07:56:14 PM
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This Stuart Stratford tumbler, with its totally ground and polished base, is fully marked including the registration number, but it also has an -S- mark. Is it a seconds mark?
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Christine — No, the complete opposite. –S– or, more commonly, =S= (variety of fonts) was the mark of Stoniers of Liverpool, bought in 1876 by Frederick Stuart from John Stonier for his sons Arthur, George and Walter (too many sons for his Stourbridge operations). See Gulliver p.268. Stoniers was a department store, but by far the majority of their business was supplying the big shipping lines.
You have an example of the most romantic British glass known to me, as it was almost certainly kept as a souvenir of a voyage on one of the great ocean liners.
Lovely find, Christine.
Bernard C. 8)
I've just looked again at your photograph and it is =S=. It is likely to be an S over a Plimsoll line.
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Christine — keeping a glass as a souvenir was almost encouraged by the shipping lines, as sets of Stuart / Stonier glasses in Stonier's dark blue boxes with the shipping line in gilt lettering were awarded as prizes for on board competitions. Whatever the morality, the practice was recognised by the shipping lines as a small overhead, easily justified by the customer loyalty it generated. Items such as towels, menus, menu holders, napkin rings and teaspoons were all subject to shrinkage in the same way.
Bernard C. 8)
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You're right about the two lines. Thank you about the Stonier reminder. Sorry to rain on your romantic dreams but these probably came from the department store, which would have been less than 20 miles from here. I have two more that I've just unwrapped and looked; neither is marked Stuart. Both have the registration mark (a different stencil/stamp to the first), smaller pontil marks but still large (i.e., not fully ground bases) and one has just an S and the other an S with a hint of two lines on one side =S.
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I think Bernard provides this explanation on quite a regular basis - we've certainly (including me) had this 'S' subject on the board several times over the past year or two.
Something else that has previously come out of these discussions, concerns the three volume work - printed privately by Gulliver, giving details of all the Stuart designs. Can Bernard advise if it is possibly in any way to buy or see this work please? thanks :)
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Something else that has previously come out of these discussions, concerns the three volume work - printed privately by Gulliver, giving details of all the Stuart designs. Can Bernard advise if it is possibly in any way to buy or see this work please? thanks :)
I have one volume of the three privately printed works by Mervyn Gulliver. I bought it from Mr Gulliver himself at a National Glass Fair a few years ago. (I couldn't afford all three volumes - being privately printed they are expensive!) Mr Gulliver regularly attends The National and Cambridge. I am sure you could buy a copy of his books from him, if he still has some for sale, although you might need to contact him in advance and ask him to be sure to bring them with him.
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Christine — Frederick Stuart was one of the greatest businessmen in the history of British glass. He bought Stoniers for his surplus sons five years before he bought the lease of the Red House from Peter Pargeter. Why? Because Stoniers, properly directed, was potentially the single largest outlet for his future Stourbridge factory, both in normal times, and, most importantly, in recession, as ocean liners had to to sail fully equipped. How do we know that he was planning to set up or take over a Stourbridge factory? Because while he was working at Stuart & Mills he was experimenting with and saving up his own amazing designs, which he launched soon after he took over the Red House.
Thanks for confirming the variety of fonts found on the Stonier mark.
The probability of your three glasses coming directly from Stonier's department store is very small indeed. Please note that I am a qualified in both mathematics and statistics, and use the term probability in a more rigorous sense than most. However, if you bought all three within the environs of Liverpool, there is the possibility, which hadn't occurred to me before, that the shrinkage may have been caused by members of the liner's crew rather than by passengers.
Finally, Christine, I can assure you that the only dreams about glass I have are, firstly, about being a fly on the wall in the study at Ravenshill, listening to the great designers, and, secondly, about walking into a Stony Stratford charity shop and finding a fabulous piece of glass for a fiver.
Paul — It's more than three volumes, and you will probably need a second mortgage to acquire it. For example, one thick volume is just Peter Pargeter designs. My understanding of the volume that Leni and I have is that it was just an early taster, and is no longer available.
Bernard C. 8)
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As I understand it from a bit of research Stonier & Co Ltd also had a department store in Liverpool city centre, in Lord Street later to be M&S .
(And frankly I find your answer rather rude)
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I've just rooted through the cupboard to find my glasses like the ones Christine posted, and mine don't have any marks at all - neither a Stuart mark nor an =S= or -S- mark. :-\ In fact a lot of my Stuart isn't marked in any way. The few pieces that are marked don't have the Stonier mark either. Maybe I'm too far from the docks here! ;D
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If you put stonier in the search box then go to no seven October 2007 you will see we were talking about Stonier /Stuart that far back , i had two sets from the Queen Mary and one from the Sylvania , the Queen Mary sets both boxed had certificates saying they were presented to a titled lady whos name i wont mention , i still have one from the Queen Mary and the Sylvania one .
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sincere thanks to those people who replied and offered advice regarding the Gulliver volumes - although it looks like I shall have to go on wishing for them at the moment (I've given up paying mortgages - or at least thought I had ;)).
I have five of these tumblers (4" in height), in green, all of which are unmarked, completely - and all of which have a large ground/polished pontil, which seems to have been typical of Stuart. Do people think there is any way of knowing whether the flat bottomed examples are earlier or later than those with a pontil depression - or might they have co-existed? From what I can see, most pieces carrying known early Stuart marks seem to show pontil depressions (the remainder being star cut bases).
It may be worth commenting - should there be the remotest chance of confusion for the less knowledgable like myself - that on rare occasions it is possible to see an upper case S which has nothing to do with Stonier/Stuart.
Just rarely, the 'S' (for Stourbridge), which forms the central part of the circular backstamp for Webb Corbett - remains more visible than the remainder of the mark - giving the impression that the piece carries just the letter 'S'. However, a careful look should reveal at least part of the words of the rest of the mark (which I understand was used during the late 1940's).
My large cut bowl with an S must have been a b......... to have sneaked into someone's pocket, as they departed the vessel after their cruise ;D
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Paul quite a few Whitefriars pocket size paperweights have it .
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Paul said:
Something else that has previously come out of these discussions, concerns the three volume work - printed privately by Gulliver, giving details of all the Stuart designs
This needs correcting, but I realise it has been gleaned from other posts :)
Firstly, there are four extra volumes in addition to the original book by Gulliver, and secondly, it is not all the Stuart designs, since all the volumes are under the general title Victorian Decorative Glass British Designs 1850-1914. The four volumes have chapters 1 to 16 running acroos them. Thus Volume 2 includes a number of headings plus chapter 1; Volume 3, chapter 2 to 15; etc.
They were published by Mervyn Gulliver in 2004 and were print on demand, from memory £65.00 each, or £240.00 for the four.
Nigel
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Is this a "new you" (nigel b) Nigel? ;)
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I'm waiting for a call back from Broadfield House Museum, but does anyone know if they hold the Gulliver's additional volumes so I can look at them? c.1900-1910 patterns - or if they have the Stuart Pattern books available at Broadfield House to be looked at.
I'm making a rather lengthy journey to get there in a few weeks time, and just wanted to know if it is going to be fairly easy to be able to see the pattern books of Stuart and Webb really. Or are they going to have to be brought in from Himley Hall?
Thanks for any help
m