Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on March 13, 2011, 04:47:46 PM

Title: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 13, 2011, 04:47:46 PM
This is number 2 from this morning.  And forgive me now for what I am about to say...
I like this a lot, but it was sold to me as Bohemian and I really was not convinced.  So I have a deal with the dealer that I can return it next week if it isn't and I don't want to keep it  :-[  I know it shouldn't matter if you like it, but I am trying to be very careful about what I buy.  I need some help to try and id this as my searches haven't thrown up anything - I don't really know what to use as keywords for this one.
I have searched the Gordiola site and Lafiore thoroughly as I did think it might be Spanish.  I have to say it is quite a fab piece really.  It's 7.5"wide by the same high, the glass is full of tiny bubbles, it glows slightly yellow under blacklight and the amber bits glow bright orange, including the neck.  The neck colour is quite intense and then fades into a ring round the base of the neck that is much paler orange, then fading into the clear.  The bulges/ribs can be felt on the outside, so it is kind of pumpkin shaped.  The trails/drips are very pretty and on top of the clear so stick out from the vase.
The ribs/bulges continue onto the base and the pontil mark is a very neat snapped off circle, left as a neat rough ring but smooth in the centre of it. The glass is full of absolutely minute bubbles.
Any thoughts on where to search, country of origin,etc greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 13, 2011, 05:26:43 PM
I have also searched Mexican recycled glass - any thoughts on that avenue?
BTW the handle is completely clear - any orange is just a reflection and it kind of doubles back on itself nearly a loop.
thanks
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 13, 2011, 07:53:23 PM
I'm interested too - I've not seen anything like it before.
Looks as if it could be for pumpkin juice?  >:D
I like it too.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 13, 2011, 08:23:56 PM
thanks Sue :sun:  It's now firmly on display. If it turns out to be mass produced recent, well so be it - I have a feeling it wont be going back next week unless I discover they can be bought for £1 in TKMAxx in which case, of course, it will be   >:D  Glad you like it. 
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 13, 2011, 08:33:08 PM
I think it's reasonably old (may be 1930/40s when cadmium started being extracted on a large scale); the clear glass has a glow that indicates manganese decoloriser and the orange is an indicator of cadmium. Manganese stopped being used as a decoloriser because there were cheaper alternatives and cadmium is a toxic heavy metal, and so no longer used.

Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 13, 2011, 09:31:01 PM
thanks Christine that's great :)  off now to look at older glass to try and see if I can find something similar.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 14, 2011, 01:37:19 PM
I'm not suggesting my vase is Gray Stan glass at all but there is an interesting explanation in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass, on how this dot effect is achieved - Gray Stan did a range called 'Flint Dotted Enamel' hence the explanation -
I hope it is ok to quote from the book? 
Source 20th Century British Glass, Charles Hajdmach page 94  Plate 183 
"...The bubble of glass is first blown into a ribbed, dip mould to create high ridges.  The bubble is then reheated and spun quickly forcing the threads, where they hang between the ridges, to snap and contract back to the point of contact with the glass body'.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 14, 2011, 10:02:44 PM
OK, I'm really not suggesting this is Gray Stan, but it appears, from an advert in 20th Century British Glass, that they also did clear glass with a darker dot enamel and in a sort of melon ribbed bulbous shape as well.  Not a mallet shape ( I think mine is called :-\) rather a rounded melon shape, but there is certainly something, a covered bowl with a pointy lid, on the top shelf of the ad on page 93 as well as a little perfume bottle on the bottom shelf right hand side in that ad with that decor.
 I'm saying I don't think it is because I do have an amber and clear Gray Stan vase and it's not the same kind of clear glass or the same kind of amber/orange at all.  In fact my other piece sits on the top shelf of that ad ;D so I'd guess that the clear glass and amber should be the same or very similar if the two pieces were being made at the same time?  However, I am wondering if my decanter y thing, may be around that timescale, which apparently is 1925-1928?  so a bit older than 30's/40's.    I know.....tenuous link of decor effect, but just thinking out loud  :)
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 18, 2011, 10:33:42 AM
If Ivo is looking, do you think there is a possibility this could be Altare glass perhaps? 
Otherwise any instinctive views (not looking for a definitive here - unless there is one of course - just some feelings on country to search for) on whether or not this is Bohemiam, or could it be Murano or British?  I can't find anything similar at the mo apart from those posted above, but just wondered on country.  The pontil mark is quite distinctive.
Any thoughts at all much appreciated  ;)
many thanks
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Ivo on March 18, 2011, 10:38:23 AM
do you think there is a possibility this could be Altare glass perhaps? 

Sorry not in the Altare book, and not their style either. I think it will remain a UGO.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 18, 2011, 11:01:11 AM
thank you Ivo
hmm, well I don't have that many in the unidentified section and those I do have I love so it stays  :)
thanks again
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: rosieposie on March 18, 2011, 11:15:03 AM
It is beautiful and so distinctive m....so I will keep searching....you never know! :X:
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 18, 2011, 01:27:38 PM
thank you Rosie  :sun:
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: nigel benson on March 19, 2011, 07:44:15 PM
Hello,

I think you answer your own question/thought that it could be Gray-Stan when you say the the clear glass ain't right, nor the amber .....and for my money not the pontil mark either. IMHO not Gray-Stan.

Nigel
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 19, 2011, 11:14:51 PM
Many thanks Nigel, I appreciate that very much.  I'm managing to eliminate a fair few at the mo  ;D  Beginning to run out of  countries that I think it might be :24:
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 22, 2011, 03:08:33 PM
I sent a pic and description of this to the V&A with a request for help.  They sent a lovely reply back but unfortunately were unable to provide any positive id.  The person who wrote said they didn't recognise it, but that it looked early 20th c, made in a small workshop rather than a factory.  The description of how the dots were made was as follows:
quote from reply (I hope it is ok to quote this as it seemed easier than trying to reword it - mods please could you remove it not? many thanks)
'The piece is blown in an optic (ribbed) mould. The resulting glass bubble would look a bit like a pumpkin. AT this stage, an orange glass thread was wound around it like a spiral. This would only attach to the higher (more expanded) areas of the bubble. It was then reheated and further expanded in the air (without a mound) causing the thread to break up into small sections which eventually became dots.'

So, an possibly an early piece of 'studio' glass  :sun:  I like that!  it fits with my collection.
m

Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 23, 2011, 11:23:02 AM
 :smg:

Hey, that's really interesting info. about the production process - I've got a gorgeous vase with vaguely similar effects - bought at Broadfield House a few years ago, from the resident glassmakers at the time - "Glass FM".
It's a trial piece by Stephen Foster - he signed it for me there and then!

I'll have to post pics and let you see it.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Cathy B on June 23, 2011, 11:27:44 AM
m, with regards to the quote, I think it's okay but it would probably be best if you could just ask the author whether they're happy to be quoted? It might help to include their name, if they're happy to go 'on the record'. :)
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 23, 2011, 12:31:38 PM
I have written to ask permission now.  Cathy could you please remove until I hear back from them?  I guess it isn't vital information anyway, but very interesting to have someone elses view on the technique and era/where it may have been made.
Many thanks
so I am curious now - I probably don't know enough at all (in fact I'm sure I don't) but from what I have read, would I be right in thinking  glassmaking was  expensive and difficult to create as a small 'studio' or 'workshop' - therefore I'm wondering where these small workshops my have been in the world?
I've been curious about this ever since I bought an old hyacinth vase.  I'm wondering where they may have been mould blown or handblown if not in a factory with a furness?
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 23, 2011, 01:43:17 PM
I think the person who wrote that actually meant not mainstream, i.e., not someone you would have heard of. Many set ups were small by "factory" standards. Studio glass is a modern term, when you are often talking about relatively small volumes of hot glass in one- or two-man operations. Glass making has been around since before Roman times. I know for a fact that the glass industry in Scotland is over 600 years old. Fuel has always been the issue, which why so many old glass foundries were near the coal fields. Before coal it was wood and the makers often moved when the supply of trees ran out. Some of the very general glass books have good introduction to glassmaking and its history.

So no, what you have is not studio glass.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 23, 2011, 04:35:39 PM
The lines can blur a bit - I was at Nigel's lecture at the Edinburgh Conference - the subject matter being;
"Can Ysart Glass be considered to be early Studio Glass" - for exactly the sorts of reasons Christine's outined (she wasn't at that lecture - she was watching Dennis Mann engraving - it was a horrible choice to have to make between the tow - Nigel and I wanted to see Dennis at work too!)

I think the term Studio Glass should be used only for glass produced from the time the term was coined to describe it - the early-mid '60s.

Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 23, 2011, 09:34:43 PM
sorry... yes I agree about the use of Studio.  I did put it in inverted commas. I just meant that it worked alongside my studio glass pieces and it  wasn't a mass produced item if you see what I mean. But yes, using 'studio' as a term was probably confusing to do.
I love this vase (it is so contemporary in the flesh but it definitely feels old) all the more so because I've never seen another, so I was rather relieved to have a response indicating that they'd not seen one either  ;D  .  It's one of the few pieces I have where I honestly don't care about who dunnit and am quite happy to keep it quietly on the shelf.  Funny how certain pieces just have the 'it' factor , although of course, the 'it' factor is different for all of us I guess.  I feel the same way about  that huge green and red splashy piece.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 24, 2011, 06:45:59 AM
It probably was mass produced in the sense that it was likely produced in the 100s or 1000s. The quantity of items a glassblower was expected to produce in a day was pretty high. These things are scarce because they were probably relatively cheap to buy and were thrown away when no longer needed or granny died. It's an item with a use; therefore, when that end use is no longer there, it's discarded. Now if Granny had kept it in her china cabinet for best, there would be more of them about. That's why it's not difficult to find the high-end stuff.

I'm not disparaging it in any way, but I think you have to be realistic about these things. It's special because it's still here. I have loads of things like that; things I have only seen one of.

As an example, when my in-laws cleared Granny's cottage many, many years ago they threw loads of all glass and china down the well because they had no use for it. This was a rural farmworker's cottage and house clearers weren't so available in the sticks. I doubt there was much of value, but I bet it was interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 24, 2011, 09:19:02 AM
I have a fair few bits which simply have the "it" factor - and I don't care about not being able to find out about them - I just love them!

(but it is nice when you get something for it's "IT" factor - then find out later it's something really important!)

m - have you seen my Laisner vase? It's stunning and amazing and weird and has an unusual story - which I related here. Unfortunately, I did seem to be mostly "discussing" it all on my ownsome , (with a little help from my friends :smg:)

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16996.0.html

I'll have to get pics of my recently acquired (from Ivo) "Cobra" vase too - at the moment I'm still just enjoying it.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 24, 2011, 11:24:33 AM
I love your Laisner vase!  It's one that I picked out when I browsed your collection photos on the display thread - absolutely gorgeous.
Christine, I do know what you mean, but to me quite a lot of work gone into the design and making of it.  And actually as a stand alone piece, it has real beauty to my eye even if it may have been a workaday water carafe at some point in its life.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Cathy B on June 27, 2011, 04:19:41 AM
m, I think it's probably safe to just leave it here until you hear back from them. If there's a problem we can remove it, but it's unlikely that they'll have an issue.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 27, 2011, 02:24:12 PM
Hi, thanks Cathy.
The V&A have replied and there is no problem.  Having had a short further discussion with them about this piece and also then the correct wording of the process,  I think the description of the process of making the dots on the glass should read as follows:
- The piece is blown in an optic (ribbed) mould. The resulting glass bubble would look a bit like a pumpkin. At this stage, an orange glass thread was wound around it like a spiral. This would only attach to the higher (more expanded) areas of the  bubble ribs. It was then reheated and further expanded in the air (without a mound mould) causing the thread to break up into small sections which eventually became dots.'

Well, I will keep my eyes peeled for anything similar that comes up.
Thanks all  :sun:
m


Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on June 27, 2011, 09:24:58 PM
I would not be too quick to dismiss Graystan based on pontil as the technique would have limited the scope for more finishing and they did produce some odd fish. But who else may have used Wilkinson's technique that dated from 1905?
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 27, 2011, 11:02:05 PM
Frank.... I'm off to look up H Wilkinson from Amblecote now.   
With regards Gray Stan, I don't think it was classed as a potential non-runner on the basis of the pontil mark alone.  So far on Gray Stan I think the no's have been:
a) Nigel has mentioned that the pontil mark doesn't look right, I have only two pieces of Gray Stan and they both have immaculately snapped off pontil marks where a vertical line can be seen, this decanter has a very neat snapped of circle.

b) I have a clear footed Gray Stan vase here with amber trails that appears in the same catalogue advertisement as what appear to be two pieces from their Flint Dot Enamel range. I was therefore thinking there might be more similarities between the pieces given they appear to have been produced at a similar time as they appear in the same advert.   Apart from the  pontil mark being different, the clear glass is different in that in the vase it has some tiny bubbles in but nowhere near the amount of minute bubbles that are in the clear of the decanter and the amber trails are a different colour in that they are yellowy amber and don't glow under blacklight whereas the decanter dots and neck colour is definitely orange and they look neon under blacklight.  However both the orange on the decanter and the amber trails on the footed vase are full of tiny bubbles now I examine them both more minutely.   (Source -Charles Hajdamach 20th Century British Glass book page 93 plate 178- my amber trailed vase is pictured 3rd from left top row, and stands next to what seems to be a Flint Dotted Enamel lidded pot 2nd from left top row and on the bottom of that plate bottom row 2nd from right is what appears to be a perfume bottle Flint Dotted Enamel). 

c) I did raise the possibility of Gray Stan with the V& A and said it was thought to possibly be a non runner at this stage and the thoughts from the V&A was that Gray Stan usually worked with high lead-glass and that the decanter didn't appear to be this - sorry I really can't tell whether it is or isn't but I assume not because my footed vase and my candlestick ring like a bell whereas the decanter has a dull 'thud'.  But maybe that is also a function of the shape of the piece? I don't know enough about glass to know that, however they just don't feel to be the same kind of glass though.

My thoughts are that despite all these no's, I still look at it and the work gone into it and feel it sits well enough to have been a piece of Gray Stan or similar.  It feels too much work has gone into it for it to be a 'workaday' piece. But it doesn't feel as 'refined' as my two GS pieces somehow.

Lastly, I found a vase on a site that has a dotted enamel effect and that was attributed as possibly Orrefors or Stevens and Williams??? did both those companies deploy this dotted enamel technique?  I've not been able to find any evidence to support this, but then I have so little resources bookwise, in this area.
sorry for the lengthy reply.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 27, 2011, 11:24:51 PM
If I read this correctly ... on the Tudor Crystal history site (see link below), there was a Mr H Wilkinson who came over from Thomas Webbs and Sons in 1921(?) along with others, to form The Stourbridge Glass Co Ltd.  So was this process patented by this Mr H Wilkinson of Thos Webbs and Sons in 1905?  if so could my decanter have been made at Thos Webbs and Sons before 1921 (does the type of glass with the neon orange etc support it being made that early?) or perhaps later by The Stourbridge Glass Co Ltd if it was he who moved over?  OTOH if my decanter is not lead crystal then perhaps it was not made at either of those places?
the thot plickens...
m
http://www.tudorcrystal.com/history.asp
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: KevinH on June 27, 2011, 11:30:22 PM
Quote
... the thoughts from the V&A was that Gray Stan usually worked with high lead-glass and that the decanter didn't appear to be this - sorry I really can't tell whether it is or isn't ...
If you can get access to a short wave UV lamp, you can check if the glass glows blue or not. So far, all items I have checked that way, that are known to be lead-based have glowed blue. That includes my one example of Gray-Stan, a green vase shading from almost opaque to virtually clear.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 27, 2011, 11:32:23 PM
Kevin is that different to a UV tube light?  sorry, I'm not hugely up on electrical type things  :-[
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on June 28, 2011, 06:36:46 PM
I think the patent would have run out in 1930 and its being enforced would depend on the rigour of the owning company... but assuming it was then post 1930. Which would tie in with wider use of cadmium although that could have been used earlier in the glass industry.

The trailed piece of Graystan shown here http://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/Graystan.htm was beautifully executed but far from immaculate. Vut it is too long since I handle Graystan in any quantity to pass judgement but there do seem to be plenty of indicators for that as a time frame... as to of course post 1905. Assuming it is English then there is a high likelihood of something similar showing up in their reserve collection... although some of the reserve attributions are plain wrong. Do they finally have someone interested in glass there now? I don't buy the lead crystal story though - there was supposed to have been a lot of experimentation and tinkering with formulas... I would love to see the manuscript Hadjamach mentions.

Another clue on your piece is that the handle was made bottom up and all the Graystan I've seen with handles was top down.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 28, 2011, 10:10:39 PM
Frank thank you.  So, if I have understood correctly, thus far we could be looking  at:
- 30's or later given that
a) cadmium was in wider use then and
b) assuming the patent having not been renewed -(and given H Wilkinson, if he is the same one and assuming he was at Thomas Webb and Son in 1905, moved companies in 1921, I suppose it could be likely the patent may not have been renewed).  I will have a check to see if I can find out where he was in 1905 and whether it was Thomas Webb and Son  and
 c) It appears from the pictures in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass, page 93 and 94, that Gray Stan were using the same or similar technique on some of their items, therefore it could be assumed for arguments sake (and not interrogating whether the process they used was exactly the same) that the patent had not been renewed. HOwever I am not sure what date these pieces are from.  They could be prior to 1930 which would indicate that either she used the technique whilst it was still patented or, it's a similar effect but different technique.

However, we're probably not looking at  Gray Stan given the pontil mark generally doesn't seem to be right (techniques of making this particular item notwithstanding) and the handle is applied bottom up which is not how Gray Stan applied the handles - there are 9 different pictures of Gray Stan items with handles in 20th Century British Glass CH, and all of them have handles applied top down.  (Question though...  all these items have fairly 'straight' sides in line with where the handle starts at the top, whereas applying a top down handle onto my decanter vase would be more difficult as the sides bulge out so far widthways from where the handle needs to start at the neck. But on balance of probability probably not them)

Or we could be looking at:
- 1905 to 1930, given that cadmium was in use then and that this technique was patented in 1905 and the patent would have run to 1930 before needing renewal.  So would this mean then, if it fell in that time frame, that it could fall under the Thomas Webb umbrella (Where  H Wilkinson may have been working at the time it was patented according to that info on the Tudor Crystal site) or  The Stourbridge Glass Co Ltd given that he moved there in 1921 (in CH's book it says that H Wilkinson patented that technique, so presumably he took the patent with him?).
If we are looking at, say,  1930's and the patent was renewed, I assume that could mean the patent would be with The Stourbridge Glass company if he were still there.  
But, again, I'm not sure this is crystal.  If it isn't, does that negate Thomas Webb and Sons and The Stourbridge Glass Co Ltd?
More searching required I think ;D
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 28, 2011, 10:31:34 PM
The help I received from the V&A was from Reino Liefkes, Senior Curator Ceramics and Glass Collection and who kindly responded again to my further query about Gray Stan and my musings about the potential country of origin of this vase.
With regards Gray Stan, I only have two pieces both from different ranges (the candlestick cloudy, the vase trailed)  so I have pretty much no idea on whether or not my decanter could have come from the same place to be honest.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on June 29, 2011, 07:30:24 AM
Might be worth trawling some of the better glass sites for examples of the 'dotting' technique... Killian etc.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on June 29, 2011, 07:40:41 AM
aha...I have already done that, Glaskilian was one of my first ports of call as it always is  :) but I shall have another look through again later today.  Thank you.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 28, 2011, 02:34:39 PM
I've been to the library this morning and borrowed Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914.
On page 287 there is a bowl (4 3/4"diameter 2 1/4"high) that kind of curves into the base and at the top flares out at the rim - bit like a wide U shape but with curves out at the top if you can imagine - described as ' clear glass bowl with rows of turquoise beads formed by the method outlined by H.Wilkinson in his patent specification of 1905. Stourbridge early 20th century'.   It has 12 ribs.  My decanter does as well.  It reminds me a lot of my decanter - more so than the Graystan pieces which all seem to have more ribs, apart from one piece I have seen.   I think my decanter dates from earlier than the 30's ....I could be wrong  ;D but I just think it does.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: rosieposie on October 28, 2011, 02:47:50 PM
Oh m,   :X:
After all this time, wouldn't it be wonderful to know for sure? 
I still look for your decanter on my nightly wanderings through the 'glass web'!!
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 28, 2011, 09:50:17 PM
Rosie, thank you  :) I look out for it or similar all the time too....but I just have that feeling this one will never be id'd  ;D
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on October 29, 2011, 01:54:06 PM
... Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914.
On page 287 there is a bowl (4 3/4"diameter 2 1/4"high) that kind of curves into the base and at the top flares out at the rim - bit like a wide U shape but with curves out at the top if you can imagine - described as ' clear glass bowl with rows of turquoise beads formed by the method outlined by H.Wilkinson in his patent specification of 1905. Stourbridge early 20th century'.   It has 12 ribs.  My decanter does as well.  It reminds me a lot of my decanter - more so than the Graystan pieces which all seem to have more ribs, apart from one piece I have seen.   I think my decanter dates from earlier than the 30's ....I could be wrong  ;D but I just think it does.
m

Looks like a good match, p278 in my copy.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 29, 2011, 03:02:21 PM
 :-[  278 it is ...apologies to anyone who thought I had my own special copy  ;D
Glad you agree on the closer match  :)
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on October 29, 2011, 05:40:46 PM
p.s. patents are not renewable.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 29, 2011, 06:26:56 PM
You're right, they aren't , and they run for 20 years apparently?  So if the patent was enforced, and it was made by HW, or the glasswork he was at during the patents lifetime, this would bring us to 1925 since he patented the technique in 1905. This would mean it could still fall under Thomas Webbs or the Stourbridge Glass co.  as that was where he was during the patent.

It also means in 1925 or 1926 ( assuming the patent had been enforced ie. no one else was allowed to use it during it's lifetime),  that other companies could have started using this technique openly.
 
Two comments about this -

IN 20th Century British Glass Charles Hajdamach comments that Mrs Graydon Stannus had access to glassmaking facilities from 1922 and that Graystan closed in 1936.

IN British Glass 1800-1914 Charles Hajdamach makes a comment page 278, on discussing HW patent for this particular technique - 'In 1905 H Wilkinson of 10 Dennis Street, Amblecote, adjacent to the back entrance of Thomas Webb glassworks, patented a technique using threaded glass which must have been known to 19th century glassmakers and which is sometimes used by studio glass makers.'

I infer from that last comment, that pieces must have been seen, which had been made using this technique, dating to the 19th century and also from studio glass makers at the time the book was written.  Would that inference be correct?
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 29, 2011, 07:09:22 PM
If I have read it correctly, the Gray-Stan 'flint dotted enamel' range appeared in a catalogue entitled The History of Gray-Stan glass, which apparently dates to between 1925 and 1928 - source CH 20th Century British Glass page 93 plate 179 description.
m

Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on November 17, 2011, 02:38:05 PM

I infer from that last comment, that pieces must have been seen, which had been made using this technique, dating to the 19th century and also from studio glass makers at the time the book was written.  Would that inference be correct?
m

Yes
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 17, 2011, 03:19:13 PM
Thanks  :) - I'm pretty certain this isn't a studio glass piece, however I was wondering if it could have been earlier and I was trying to use the Manganese content and handle shape to narrow down a timeframe somewhat.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Ivo on November 21, 2011, 01:41:24 PM
http://p14064.typo3server.info/Vase-Regenhuette-um-1970.884+B6YmFja1BJRD04ODQmTD0xJnByb2R1Y3RJRD0xMjQwMCZwaWRfcHJvZHVjdD04ODQmZGV0YWlsPQ__.0.html

Pretty much the same type of glass wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 21, 2011, 02:22:40 PM
Yup Ivo, I would say same technique.
Interestingly the other vase I came across had this red as the contrast dot as well and they'd given a possible of Orrefors or Stevens and Williams...the vase is a different shape and more controlled (less freeform if you know what I mean, in it's finish) than the one you link to but similar colour and no grading of colour elsewhere on the piece as mine has -
link here  http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/modern/G243.html

Do you know what pontil mark finish they use at Regenhuette  please?  I'm guessing that the one I linked to has some sort of polished pontil mark, which would be what I would expect from Orrefors or STevens and Williams.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Ivo on November 21, 2011, 05:09:21 PM
Personally I am most underwhelmed by an attribution that says "Stevens & Williams OR Orrefors" - it is too close to "whatever".
And as for the finish on the underside, that would pretty much depend on the finish of the neck and the standards of the company. I know little of the glassmakers in and around the Bavarian forest.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 21, 2011, 05:20:48 PM
'Personally I am most underwhelmed by an attribution that says "Stevens & Williams OR Orrefors" - it is too close to "whatever"'
Me too.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 04, 2012, 09:51:21 AM
link to another post with a similar type of decoration
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46401.msg260613.html#msg260613
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on March 20, 2012, 11:05:41 AM
Not the same as mine and I think 'younger' than where I would put my decanter age wise, but the same technique.  This link is to a small 3 1/2" round vertically ribbed vase with a slightly flared neck and rim.  The dot trails are horizontal and red on clear and it is labelled with an oval foil label with writing stating 'SINCE 1776 Royal Brierley HANDMADE IN ENGLAND'
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230761203678?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 01, 2012, 09:24:23 PM
It seems Poschinger also used this decoration
this jug has the dots in a very dark colour  I think dark amethyst, on a ribbed clear glass or an oddly very pale pinky colour, jug (23.2cm high which is 9 1/8") but they look as though they are done in the same way- dates given as 1890-1910
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Henkelkrug-mit-Farbaufschmelzungen-Poschinger-um-1890-/230705519670?pt=Glas_Kristall&hash=item35b71edc36
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on November 03, 2012, 09:38:35 PM
Nice when these trails lead to discoveries that trash half the logic so far  ::)

Back to Ivo's UGO
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 04, 2012, 04:41:02 PM
I haven't found a reference for the Poschinger attribution however the glass on that site is normally fairly well id'd I think.
That said, Poschinger did make a 'cinderella ballgown' type piece with a side handle and trailing and prunts on it, so it's not out of the question that mine 'could' be by them I guess.  It has more similarities with that jug than anything else I have seen so far...just musing here though.
It could also make it earlier than the 30's.
If that information is correct, it's odd that the technique was patented here in 1905 isn't it?
How would you patent a technique that was clearly used earlier if that dating is correct on the jug?
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on November 04, 2012, 10:08:30 PM

How would you patent a technique that was clearly used earlier if that dating is correct on the jug?
m

Prior art is up to patent office to trace and if no one relevant saw the patent journal entry it would go through.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 14, 2012, 11:20:38 AM
searching for 'Nailsea' glass items I came cross this flask,ribbed white opal glass trailed with bright pink dotted trails, with horizontal 'stretched' dots on the ribs...appears to have been made with a similar technique and appears to be earlier than 1905 possibly.

http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/997848
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on November 14, 2012, 06:33:23 PM
Not the same as mine and I think 'younger' than where I would put my decanter age wise, but the same technique. ... 'SINCE 1776 Royal Brierley HANDMADE IN ENGLAND'
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230761203678?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Nice base shot that makes explaining the technique very easy.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on November 14, 2012, 09:23:42 PM
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/997848
Same collection Sizebergh Castle but excluding ´type' from description and adding 300 year date range.
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/997856
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/997855

National trust collection as a whole has about 50 pieces of 'Nailsea' glass
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 14, 2012, 09:36:59 PM
Frank I'm confused by your post  :-\
I just posted the flask because it has a decor done in the same way as my decanter.  Your links go to two jugs that don't have the same decoration as the decanter.  Did you mean to put this on the Nailsea thread?  :)
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Frank on November 14, 2012, 10:43:27 PM
Yes, I was just in there and wondered where it had gone to  :-[
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 14, 2012, 10:46:31 PM
 ;D -
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 27, 2013, 12:15:12 AM
The annual bump  :)
I've been wondering if this might have originated from Gordiola glass.  It's not a colour I've seen them use, it's not amber, it's orange and clear.  It's also not something I've seen anywhere before.
However looking at it again this evening, I observed a couple of things:
- The neck and rim are completely handformed and have been applied separately to the vase.  It's been neatly done but it's what might have been described as 'half post' (I know that's not a correct description but for the sake of using one that others might understand).
- The base is indented as in antique glass and it has a snapped off pontil mark.
- The glass is full of tiny bubbles and stones
To all intents and purposes it looks older than the 1930's to me.
Gordiola used a ribbed shape mould to blow those vases with the spouts and they have indented bases as well as snapped off pontil marks with the ring left like this one I think iirc?

Anyway, I've added some clearer pictures now.
Thanks for any more thoughts or leads
m

Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 27, 2013, 10:29:26 AM
adding to my post above.
Actually I'm not at all sure about the Gordiola thing now.
I've just got my plate down to compare and the glass is clear on the plate no bubbles or stones or anything, completely different to the decanter.  Its also a completely different colour but the pic I've added does show that the vase is orange, not amber at all.
I've also been trawling pictures of the museum Gordiola pieces etc and cannot find any that use this colour - hmmmm :-\
I've added a pic of the pontil mark on the decanter and it is different to the plate as well.  But then they are different sizes and I've not seen a very clear pic of the pontil mark of one of the vases with spouts to be honest.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: rosieposie on October 29, 2013, 01:18:39 AM
I still know nothing about decanters,  but think this is beautiful,  did at the start of this thread & still do. :)
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2014, 01:51:33 PM
This is the annual bump :)
And thanks Rosie.

So far what I have appears to indicate a fairly earlish age to the decanter - my instinct says earlier than the 1930s (but I could be wrong):

- The glass to me looks quite old,
-  It has an indented base and a snapped off pontil mark
- The dot technique was patented by H Wilkinson in 1905.  CH British Glass 1800-1914 shows a bowl with 12 ribs with the same dot technique and references H Wilkinson's patent so appears to be indicating it dates to around 1905 and before 1914 if you take the date of the book (1800-1914) as a reference.

(Caveat - But technique also appears to have been used by other makers - evidence shown previously such as Regenhütte around that period,  and in a link to an opaque glass flask in the National Trust collection undated but looks quite old, and this technique was also used definitely by Graystan in the 20s/30s, and I believe has been used more recently than the 1930s)

So another angle I been exploring goes back to Christine's mention of Cadmium and also the fact of the curious definitely orange colour of the glass.

Could the orange glass in this vase be created by a combination of cadmium sulphide and selenium? 
If that is the case then could it be that this must (might?) date to after 1892 when Franz Welz patented the orange coloured glass?

Ok that doesn't help be define the timeframe exactly, nor does it help on country or maker, but does at least give an earliest possible date for the piece.

Basically, I suppose I'm wondering if it is a sort of 'experimental' piece using a new glass colour and a 'new' dotting technique - which might pin it down to around 1900 (1905) for date?

I have absolutely no idea what country this might have originated from except possibly German for some reason. 
m




Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Ivo on October 30, 2014, 02:03:45 PM
Selenium puts after the 1920s, not before. I am still convinced the piece is Romanian and of quite recent date - I have seen these around and handled them.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2014, 02:22:15 PM
Ivo use of selenium in the mix patented by Franz Welz 1892 - patent here (unless I have misunderstood this):

http://www.google.com/patents/US479689

'I am still convinced the piece is Romanian and of quite recent date - I have seen these around and handled them.'  :o really?  you have not mentioned this before.  Please tell me more, I am quite willing to believe this as the decanter has very little wear on the base at all.  Does that tie in with the use of Cadmium sulphide age wise?
And blimey ... all that research  ;D
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Ivo on October 30, 2014, 02:46:42 PM
I have seen this bottle on antique marketS on three different occasions. One dealer told me he thought it was from Romania which I am willing to believe. Alternative is of course Regenhütte.
The Selenium red and Cadmium and sulphur yellow is a 'strike' colour which is produced on reheating - which the Welz patent excludes. I would place this colour much later, more in the Frederick Carder era. But will anyone who really understands the difference between these two processes please explain?
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2014, 03:09:06 PM
this was a patent registered in 1934
http://www.google.com/patents/US1983151

It doesn't appear to be saying much different to the Franz Welz patent - but I am very much a layman.

This article written in 1912 acknowledges Franz Welz's patent being '21 years ago' i.e. 1891 - please see first and second paragraphs where this is described in detail.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50043a031?journalCode=iechad.1

source: Journal of Industrial and Engineering Chemistry July 1912

edited to add - and certainly it appears to me, red glass using selenium was created much earlier than the 1920s.
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
mm, I have now completely thought myself out of the Regenhutte possibility and I'm not at all keen on Romanian since I cannot find a single thing that might indicate this.  But I will explore this as an option now.  Were the pieces you saw identical Ivo including colour please?
Thanks
m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Ivo on October 31, 2014, 06:32:22 AM
Yes absolutely.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 02, 2014, 12:55:32 AM
Thanks Ivo. 

m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on November 11, 2014, 10:17:40 AM
with regard the use of selenium in glass in the 1890s:
Source:
This article appeared in the Review on Glass No 1 2012
reference the 2010 International Council of Museums Glass meeting
http://network.icom.museum/fileadmin/user_upload/minisites/glass/review_on_glass_1_01.pdf
page 28
in describing Schreiber and Neffen production:
'For example luxury pink coloured glass called 'Lachsrosa' has been produced since 1892, when the selenium dye technology was patented by the owner of the Glass works Franz Welz from Hrob near Teplice'

m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: Ivo on November 11, 2014, 01:00:06 PM
Lachsrosa = salmon pink.
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on February 18, 2017, 10:29:57 AM
Ivo said
'I have seen this bottle on antique marketS on three different occasions. One dealer told me he thought it was from Romania which I am willing to believe. Alternative is of course Regenhütte.
The Selenium red and Cadmium and sulphur yellow is a 'strike' colour which is produced on reheating - which the Welz patent excludes. I would place this colour much later, more in the Frederick Carder era.'

I think not Romanian but Ukrainian folk glass maybe 1948 ish see attached pics:

The attached picture is mine from my own exhibition catalogue pages.
The pink piece was made by Piotr Semenenko and was one of his first pieces appearing at an exhibition of Ukrainian folk art in 1948.

See also the green enamelled decanter in this link - clearly a shape they favour
http://kyivcity.travel/discover_kyiv/choose_your_kyiv/kyiv_culture/museums/national-museum-of-ukrainian-decorative-folk-art

m
Title: Re: Decanter ish thing with bulges/ribs, amber glass trails/drips sold as Bohemian
Post by: flying free on February 18, 2017, 12:52:57 PM
Re my post above, I meant to say that it was Ivo's suggestion which led me to re-look at Ukrainian glass.

Here on this blog about Ukraine are some pieces with the variegated orangey selenium glass

http://orpheusandlyra.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/petrykivka_ukraine_5.jpg
http://orpheusandlyra.tripod.com/id27.html

They are different and look more recent than my piece but that handle appears to be a 'marker' in some way.