Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: dorian_graye on May 14, 2010, 01:43:49 PM

Title: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: dorian_graye on May 14, 2010, 01:43:49 PM
I have a couple of pieces and I'd like to know how to describe them.  But, I thought maybe someone could explain the difference before I went through the trouble of photographing, resizing, and uploading.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 14, 2010, 02:37:26 PM
http://www.the-loschs.com/ittec.html has a list of some of the Italian techniques, incluing bollicine and pulegoso. The techniques are in alphabetical order, with a short description of how the technique is done. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 20, 2010, 02:01:53 AM
I've been pondering this question more tonight. I know, get a life! Anyway... I wondered how one could tell the difference in the two techniques. They are both bubble filled glass. According to the definition, pulegoso should be rough and often pitted on the surface. I checked a piece of Martinuzzi pulegoso I have and found that, even though the bubbles were small in this piece, the surface was rough and there were small pits over the surface of the glass.

Does anyone have a Scarpa bollicine they can check for comparison?
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: dorian_graye on May 20, 2010, 02:09:37 AM
Hi.  Thanks for your reply.  I have several pieces of glass that I will upload in the next few days for a comparison.....
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: dorian_graye on May 21, 2010, 04:40:25 PM
So here are a few examples that I have.  The red vessels, I'm guessing, would be considered "bollicine" as there are no craters in the glass and the bubbles are encased.  The blue dish has many bubbles in the glass, but it is pitted and has some craters.  I'm guessing that the dish would be considered "pulegoso". Would I be correct?
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 22, 2010, 12:03:54 AM
Correct on the blue. The jury is still out on bollicine.

It is difficult to dig up anything on bollicine glass other than definition. Two authors include bollicine pieces with sommerso, but the glass had other inclusions, so I could draw no conclusions. Probably bollicine doesn't open to the surface and is sometimes cased. I definitely wouldn't quote this since I have only a vague idea of what I am talking about.  :spls2: I wish aa or another glassmaker was in the Murano group.
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: langhaugh on May 22, 2010, 03:58:44 PM
You're not alone in your pondering, Anita. (There's a song in there, I'm sure.) I've spent a few hours over the years looking for what the difference might be between bollicine and pulegosa and I've never found a satisfactory answer, which tells me that there isn't a huge difference.The terms even mean the same thing: bollicina is bubble in Italian and puleghe is bubble in the Venetian dialect. Venini: Catalogue Raisonne and Venetian Glass: An American Collection both give pretty much the same definition of pulegosa, a technique where bubbles are created by adding a substance such as gas/petrol to the glass. Nether gives a definition of bollicine, although the Losch site does and the defintion is pretty close to the pulegosa definition without mentioning gas.

I've come to the conclusion that the basic technique is adding another substance to the glass that creates a chemical reaction, leading to the formation of gas bubbles. The size and shape of the bubbles vary according to what you add to the glass. Gas/petrol creates a very frothy bubble glass, as you see in Murano pulegosa and in the 40's Skrdlovice glass. Other substances that I've hears been added are some sodium compounds, potato peelings, and pieces from an ash tree. I'm sure there's more. Another variation is caused by where and when you add the second substance. The gasoline/petrol is added to the the glass in the pot, for example. The second chemical can also be spread on a marver (not gas, of course) and picked up on the parison, which is then dipped in the pot. This creates the localized bubbles you see in some Scandinavian pieces.

I'm not sure about whether or not the glass being cased makes a difference. I think the early Venini pieces weren't cased, which led to the pitted surface you talked about Anita, but I've got some cased pulegosa. It also depends on whether pulegosa is the only technique being used on the piece. The early Venini pieces were focused on the shape and texture of the piece, so no casing. Other pulegosa had layers of colours or frit added to the pulegosa so they were cased.

I think you're right, Anita, when you say bollicine was often used in conjunction with the addition of inclusions or with sommerso, which might give us an idea of when we should use the term bollicine. But it doesn't give us a term that encompasses the range of  glass with bubbles we see, unless that term is pulegosa.

Anita, and you thought you were the only one in need of a life! I think of it the mental exercise I need to prolong my life.


David





 
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 22, 2010, 08:02:58 PM
David, do you think pulegoso is a special form of bollicine done by using volatile compounds?
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: langhaugh on May 22, 2010, 10:22:49 PM
Anita:

I think that's an interesting way of encapsulating the differences. However, I don't think I see pulegosa as a subset of bollicine, but one of the a range of reactions that creates bubbles. Pulegosa seems to have been the first, but others followed. I suppose you could argue that, judging by the definitions in Loschs, bollicine is a subset of pulegosa.

David
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: langhaugh on May 24, 2010, 01:25:42 AM
This question has been niggling at me so I've done a little more research.  Pulegosa was the term Martinuzzi used for his bubbled glass, which he developed in 1926-8. There's some evidence that he followed the work of the Sala family, who had developed a bubble glass in 1919 in Paris. Marintinuzzi's work was introduced in 1928-30 for Venini. In 1932 Scarpa designed a vase "a bollicine," again for Venini. Ricke and Schmitt  note in "Italian Glass" that "a bollicine" was "finely bubbled glass," whereas Martinuzzi's pulegosa was "more coarsely bubbled."  So I think that the two techniques were originally proprietary names used by the designers, but which have been extended to cover the basic technique, which, by the 1030's, was being used elsewhere. Other makers have occasionally used the two terms, although it may be that writers from outside the company have used the terms simply to describe the product. For example, I found pictures of Poli pieces for Seguso Veri d'Arte with bubbles, some called pulegosa and some called a bollicine. The ones named a bollicine seemed to be cased and often use gold foil. Other companies were also using bubbles. Many of Barovier and Toso's lines from the 30 ' and 40's have bubbles in them, which were created by throwing sodium silicate into the pot. They didn't use either term butcrated their own propriety name for each line.

I think I was right in the beginning to say that the basic technique involves adding a substance to the glass causing a chemical reaction that releases bubbles into the glass. It would be good if we had another umbrella word to cover the range of terms. Perhaps there's an idea for a contest there. 

David
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 24, 2010, 04:10:20 AM
Both techniques do have the purpose of creating bubbles by heating a substance inside the glass. In my thinking, glassmakers use pulegoso with the idea of creating a rough surface made by the opened and unopened bubbles. Scarpa's bollicine seems to all be internal and is often, as mentioned, used with sommerso pieces. I am still hoping someone has a Scarpa piece that they can describe the feel. I bet the surface is smooth.

It was so much easier in the days I just called everything bubble glass.  :D
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: langhaugh on May 24, 2010, 04:41:34 AM
Anita:


I think you are right in that  the Scarpa pieces would be smooth as they're cased.  I've got a piece, Mexican I think, that is pure pulegosa, i.e. no casing, but no open bubbles. Neither do the Beranek pieces have open bubbles, although the surface is rougher than normal glass. I would guess the shaping of the piece smooths over the open bubbles.  I think the rougher surface is part of the effect Martinuzzi was aiming for. However, the style of Martinuzzi's pieces is a backward looking style in the sense that it evokes the past. They're big, solid, straightforward pieces.   The bubbles also provide add to the sense of solidity by making the piece more opaque. So while the tactile element is important, I think the visual element is also important, both in that the light reflects different from a rougher surface, and the piece looks more solid because of the bubbles. Scarpa' pieces are more modern looking. They're smoother, cleaner, more subtle. (Guess who I prefer?)

I think it's worth going back to the roots of the words, both of which denote bubbles. I think you're idea of going back to calling it bubble glass is actually a good idea. One book, for example, does call it foam glass.

David
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: langhaugh on May 24, 2010, 07:09:03 AM
Dorian:

Sorry. I've just realised I've got away from the original question. I'd be quite happy calling both pulegosa as the bubbles are the main feature of both and they are quite dense. However, I don't think there's a definitive answer as it all depends on how much of which substance you add to the glass at which time. In other words, it's a relative, not an absolute difference.

Here are four pieces of bubble glass I have. Each is a little different.

David
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: obscurities on May 24, 2010, 05:05:50 PM
A couple of comments to confuse the issue if I may....   ;D

I, though the years have typically associated the Generic application of the term Bollicine with glass which is fairly transparent, such as the second and third example David posted, and the term Pulegoso I have typically associated with opaque pieces such as examples 1 (Beranek) and the 4th example. Whether right or wrong, I do not know..... probably incorrect....

Craig
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 24, 2010, 05:48:57 PM
Craig, I do the same thing. Words seem to have a certain spirit. For example, bullicante and a bolle are the same thing, but I used bullicante when bubbles are orderly and small, such as many of the Fratelli Toso pieces. I use a bolle when the bubbles are larger and round. They look kind of lazy and a bolle sounds more relaxed than bullicante.

Pulegoso and bollicine may overlap in the techniques used, but pulegoso is a robust sounding word. So I use it when the surface has been roughed up by the bubbles.

I think I'll just totally ignore the word bollicine from here on.  :P So much confusion for such a simple word. Bolliicine sounds relaxed to me, like the froth found in many layered ashtrays.
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 24, 2010, 05:56:14 PM
BTW, David's black and white vase looks so much like efeso that I wonder about the technique. Those are some big bubbles!
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: langhaugh on May 24, 2010, 09:05:53 PM
Looking over one of my posts, I see that I've quoted someone as saying Martinuzzi's pulegosa was "more coposteriorly bubbled." I'm not sure what coposteriorly means of where the heck the word came from, but it should have read "more coarsely bubbled."

I checked another couple of sources. The Deboni Venini book adds a little to what we've been saying. Pulegosa "consists of a spongy pasta vitrea full of irregular bubbles of air, created by pouring a substance which provokes this reaction into the molten paste." So the texture comes not just from the bubbles but from the glass itself. Deboni doesn't define bollicine at at all, although he defines Scarpa's sommerso glass as usually containing  a layer of bullicante glass. I find that quite confusing as I've always though that bullicante glass was created by spike moulds or  a mat of spikes on the marver.

Finally, I went to the Barovier and Toso website (http://www.barovier.com/s_community/voc_detail.asp?id=147), which I should have visited first. It simply says that a bolle and bulicante are the same (spike created bubbles) and pulegosa = bollicine.  That makes the most sense to me. I'm joining Anita in ignoring bollicine from now on.

BTW, the third piece in my pic was Scandinavian, Randsfjordglass by T. Torgersen. I think the bubbles were created by the picking up a powder from the marver and then dipping the piece back in the pot. 

Just to keep the conversation going, though.... Anita uses bolle to describes big bubbles, but I think bolle is when a spike mould is used. There was thread recently where someone described how Erickson glass made large bubbles by incorporating glass peas in the gather. They melted leaving a bubble. I think that's how the larger bubbles in Murano were created. I was also looking at all my bubbled pieces and some that I thought were puelgosa because the bubbles seemed random, were, in fact, bolle/bullicante, as several layers of glass had been consecutively rolled on spikes, so the bubbles were at different depths in the glass and looked random. I think Seguso did this.

I promise to stop now. Hope this hasn't too pedantic, but it helps me figure out what glass is all about.


David (call me bubbles, but not to my face)

David
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: TxSilver on May 24, 2010, 09:55:26 PM
Yeah, we did this discussion proud and I think we came to a good conclusion. Thanks, David. We have to loosen the definition of bullicante and bolle somewhat. The glass can be made by any mechanical means, including poking a needle and blowing air inside. Bullicante/bolle is mechanical while pulegoso/bullicante is chemical.

My brain is now filled with bubbles.
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: Cathy B on May 31, 2010, 06:24:55 AM
Another victim of the autocorrect! Sigh - we recently discovered "coposteriorly" is what happens to the word "coarsely" when the board automatically substitutes "posterior" for "arse". :24: Anne's recently tweaked the board so that hopefully it doesn't happen again.
Title: Re: Question: The difference between pulegoso and bollicine glass?
Post by: steph on May 31, 2010, 09:07:21 AM
Hi Anita & David....this thread was fascinating, such a steep learning curve in a short space of time...I'm breathless but when I've recovered I'm of to look as some of my bubbly glass :hiclp: