Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Simone on April 20, 2006, 10:52:13 PM
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There's 2 of these I found and unpainted them today. They're very nice and look like good quality. Does anyone have an idea of who made them and when?
It's very hard to photograph, and has lots of scallops and "steps" as well as a starcut base. :roll:
I've never seen a plate with a thick rim that is rolled upwards and downwards.
Photo 1 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate1.jpg)
Photo 2 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate2.jpg)
Photo 3 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate3.jpg)
Photo 4 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate4.jpg)
Photo 5 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate5.jpg)
Photo 6 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate6.jpg)
Photo 7 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate7.jpg)
Photo 8 (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate8.jpg)
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Maybe, possibly ........maybe Bernsdorf (or Walther) "Lady".
Glen
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Simone and Glen, to my opinion the edge is too smooth for being Bernsdorf Lady and Walther- the latter were really square
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how about what you call Jacobean please?
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and in the affirmative: could it be.... Inwald?
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Thanks Glen and thanks Pamela, the edges are thick, not square, but rounded, they're rounded on the bottom turned in bit, but not rounded on the top, although they're not squared either.
I hope I haven't confused matters even more. :)
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No, not Jacobean (Inwald). There is no ridging between the Jacobean squares at all. They merge into each other.
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Jacob2.html
Trouble is there are a lot of these square block type patterns......
Glen
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Glen, do you join me that Simone's is neither Bernsdorf Lady nor Inwald Mylord?
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Pamela - the plate is certainly not Inwald's Jacobean (Milord).
I can see what you mean about Lady. The trouble is it is so similar to many of these square block patterns. I feel that handling it would help. Photos are really difficult.
It's tricky.
Glen
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Hi Simone,
think I found something very similar :D
IMHO could be from former Yugoslawia
STS Zagreb 1936 A, page 'supplement 2'
pattern # 2121
also that equally looking star base counts 20 rays
two sizes 15 cms and 25 cms
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The recent thread on another block design ("Is it Crown Crystal?" http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,8513.0.html ) set me wondering again about this piece of Simone's.
Does anyone have any further thoughts or suggestions about it?
Glen
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It's quite an attractive piece, isn't it.
Glen, what distinguishes this from the Inwald Jacobean?
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Well, nobody mentioned Belgium (VSL) yet. There are very few pattern books for the factory, but having just bought a large box of stuff which is definitely VSL, this piece would not be very out of place in it.
Very typical the deep and polished star-cut base which extends so near to the edge of the foot that it creates a reasonable rim (and reduces scratching on fine wood surfaces). Somewhat 'rounded' or 'soft' ribs are also a typical VSL feature
Although it's hard to tell from the pictures, the outside 'lip' looks rather over thick! I have quite a lot of Imwald and this is pretty near to the right 'scallop' shape, but most of MY Imwald is quite exactly proportioned (and therefore a somewhat slimmer edge), this looks to be quite chunky?!
(Pamela, I'm sure you have even more of it, so I bow to your greater knowledge)
One of the most noticeable things about VSL designs is that the glass is rather unnecessarily thick. (Perhaps they were selling stuff by the kilo!) ;-) (Though actually it's a better guess that they were shipping on the waterways and cared more about resilience than about weight!)
German factories generally(!) preferred a somewhat slimmer press-moulds (and Holland generally the 'thinnest' of all!)
PS. I fully agree with Glen that without the thing in my hands this is just a very obtuse guessing game!
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Jay - many thanks for your post. I had not considered Belgium, you are right. The main reason is that I know very little about VSL - but I agree with you that it is certainly an area worth pursuing. On the subject of Belgium, have you (or anyone else) heard of Emile Haebler? I believe they may have been linked with Hortensja (Poland).
Cathy - good question! How is this pattern different from Inwald's Jacobean? The edges (to the squares) are "flush" with each square on Inwald's Jacobean. There is no stepping or change of surface level, as there is on this pattern. Also, on Inwald's Jacobean, there are no V shapes between the squares, as there are on some of these square block patterns.
A characteristic of Inwald is (usually) a highly mirror polished base. Not just a smooth grind....it's more than that!
Glen
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Looking at the photos again, I feel that the appearance of any steps between the squares may simply be a refractive effect. The two photos which show a clear close up of the pattern from the underside, (http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate6.jpg http://www.graphix4you.com/paperweights/plate8.jpg) both show flush squares with no steps or v's. Therefore I feel it is Inwald's Lord pattern.
Steven
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Steven, you could well be right, it may well be "Lord" / Jacobean. However, I think the perception problem is a stickler here, as I still see "steps" when I look at it (perhaps I need new specs ::)). Also, the central star (on the base) doesn't look the same as the Jacobean stars I have seen (the points are longer and thinner on Jacobean, whereas these appear to be stubbier).
I am sure that if we were to handle the item in question we would know right away what it is (or isn't).
Glen
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I'll qote for Bernsdorf 'Lady' again and again and beg to apologize for that at the same time ;o)
laying my'Lady's items upright down- there is no doubt >:D :-X
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If we were all together, sipping coffee (better still, mulled wine) and passing the plate around between us, I am sure we would have no problem identifying and agreeing upon what it is. But I'm foxed by the (optical) problems of my perception on this.
To move onto Cathy's fresh block pattern with the ballerina (gorgeous piece, by the way) - another tricky one. I think you're absolutely right that it is linked with Hortensja, Cathy. I will attempt to scan and post all the relevant patterns as soon as I can.
Glen
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I hope that I could get a good picture of the scallop profile of Lady, so did a few photo experiments...
I hope they help.
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/pix/ladypattern.jpg
Would anyone like a Christmas cookie?
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Jay, I jump into it and would say: yours is not LADY of Bernsdorf >:D
objections welcomed of course ;)
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the silhouette of LADY is also fine in this vase:
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/vasen/01455.html
and again in Centre Pieces of course:
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/01456.html
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That surprises me Pamela.
I thought that I had confirmed this with you last year (but the PC ate my emails, so it could be a senior moment on my part!) ;-)
I have two 'celery vases', three sizes of bowl, and the bowl on foot. (amber, amethyst and anna-groen). To me they are very clearly from the same manufacturer and pattern.
And to be honest when I look at the picture of your tall 'posy' vase against mine I really can't see any clear difference, so could you please be really clear about the difference that you see between my pic and your pic?
Perhaps it would be easier to send you a bigger selection of angles via personal email?
The fact that they are easy to find in Holland implies certain factories which are more likely to be the source (e.g. Walther, Markhbein).
(Dear Moderator, I guess this thread is splitting, but I'd still like to finish this point. Your help/advice?)
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Jay, stick with it for now and we can split out the posts if we need to later into separate threads. It seems to me that all are connected at the moment so no point in dividing it. :)
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Jay, may be you're right that we talked about it earlier - I do not remember I'm afraid. I tried to look for other pictures of it on your homepage, but unfortunately they all seem to have vanished also?
Your new, very·next·to·the·bowl-photos show that yours hasn't got the horizontal lentil shaped gaps/'facets'
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First: the glass: I feel comfortable between all of you regarding Lady - Jacobean - or what? I DO NOT KNOW and tend to give up ;D ::) ???
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Hi
May not help on the Id of your plate but still looks very similar to a plate I have ,although you all seem sure the plate is 1930's it very similar to this plate which has a date lozenge for 1856 made by Edward Bolton so maybe some designs have change very little over the years
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/mhgcgolfclub/paty1.jpg - Mod: Image gone
roy mhgcgolfclub
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Roy - thanks for posting that plate. I can see that the rim might resemble the one on Simone's plate - is that the similarity you were talking about?
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Hi
yes that is the similarity I was talking about, the picture of the my plate also has an upward and turned down rim
mhgcgolfclub
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Cathy - your ballerina dish was made by Stolle Niemen - POLAND. (Huty Szklane J. Stolle "Niemen" SP) circa 1926-1935
Lots more to add about this and other Polish patterns - it's going to take time to sort it all out.
Glen
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I think that Simone's plate is similar in features to the 2nd vase in this post
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,9089.0.html
I thought it was similar to my mystery vase when Simone posted it but since I didn't know my vase, I didn't comment. But since we are revisiting the subject ;D
The features that struck me as similar are that thick rolled ??? edge and the way the blocks are flared up at the edges.
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Simone — I'm sure that your plate is Jacobean, made by Davidson for Clayton Mayers. I've had a few pieces of Davidson-made Jacobean through my hands, all superb quality like your plate, and never marked with the Reg. No. Just look at that base star — it shouts Davidson. Somewhere I recall reading that it dates from about 1932, possibly in Stewart & Stewart.
Some years ago I had two scarce Davidson Jacobean flower sets in stock, one in blue and the other in green, both with matching domes, together with a green Chippendale set, again with a matching dome. I put them all out at a glass fair, and by the time we had finished setting up we had sold all three!
At present, the only example of Davidson Jacobean I have in stock is a magnificent large decanter. It takes some explaining as it is pressed glass. The stopper breaks the usual rule for Jacobean & Chippendale as it has been expertly ground in. For smaller items like salad oils, a ground-in stopper is usually an indication of some modern TLC, best avoided.
Bernard C. 8)
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Could your magnificent decanter be a Josef Inwald "Jacobean" (Lord) piece, Bernard?
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Could your magnificent decanter be a Josef Inwald "Jacobean" (Lord) piece, Bernard?
It could be, Glen, but I would have expected it to have carried the Reg. No. if it was. Am I being to simplistic, Glen? ... and the chunky quality looks and feels right for Davidson.
Bernard C. 8)
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I couldn't be certain, Bernard. Not every piece made by Inwald has an impressed RD as far as I am aware. My rule of thumb is to check the base - if it is mirror shiny and highly polished, then I'd put money on it being Inwald.