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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: glasswizard on August 16, 2005, 10:05:53 AM

Title: Prunts
Post by: glasswizard on August 16, 2005, 10:05:53 AM
I have been seeing many messages about pieces with prunts. This vase I have has prunts that look like they were applied with a pastry bag. In my other life as a baker you can see why that would come to mind.
Anyway the vase is 8 1/2 inches tall, has a ground but not polished pontil. My question, oh dear going to get technical, is how do prunts get applied?
http://tinypic.com/am487l.jpg Oh and if anyone knows anything about this piece, well thats icing on the cake. Terry
Title: Prunts
Post by: RAY on August 16, 2005, 10:21:32 AM
hi Terry

i dont know who it was made by, but the prunt's were most likley put on as a small blob of glass then pushed down with a small mould tool
Title: Prunts
Post by: Leni on August 16, 2005, 10:41:15 AM
:D I love the idea of someone putting molten glass prunts on with an icing bag!   :lol:

Perhaps one made of asbestos might work (but somehow I think not!  :lol:  :roll: )

Now I expect Adam will come along and tell me that's exactly how they *did* do it  :shock:  :oops:  :shock:

Leni
Title: Prunts
Post by: Glen on August 16, 2005, 12:36:33 PM
With regard to prunts on pressed glass:

If you look at this auction (it's one of the celery vase/traubenspulers!) for a Brockwitz Curved Star celery vase, you'll see the prunts around the bottom of the item.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CARNIVAL-GLASS-CURVED-STAR-CELERY-VASE-CHALICE_W0QQitemZ7343540316QQcategoryZ16QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is pressed glass and the pattern is intaglio on the surface of the glass, with the exception of the prunts which are cameo and stand out. To achieve that, the shape would have been cut into the mould (Note the rest of the intaglio design was proud on the mould). Thus the glass would fill the shape of the prunts and appear cameo on the surface.

I hope this makes sense (it's not easy to put into words).

Glen
Title: Prunts
Post by: KevinH on August 16, 2005, 07:13:39 PM
Just musing on a (pointless?) point of interest ...

Since I happen to have a couple of examples of the "Curved Star" celery vases (in clear, rather than coloured / iridised), I re-checked the prunts for any mould marks.

Sure enough, the four prunts that coincide with the four-part mould edges do show evidence of the moulding line but it is not easy to see this without a magnifier and also getting the light just right. Another point that "confirms" the integral pressed prunts on these items is that all eight prunts are in perfect alignment around the body, both vertically and horizontally.

So ... given that these vases are made in a 4-part mould, I wonder if the design could have ben altered slightly such that none of the prunts would have shown mould lines and given us collectors an opportunity to wonder whether these were later-applied.

Hmm. So much for the strange thoughts that pass through my brain in idle moments  :)
Title: Prunts
Post by: Glen on August 16, 2005, 07:20:45 PM
Kev, that would not surprise me at all. The Brockwitz mould shop was a masterful and highly skilled operation. So much so that a high profile party of glass craftsmen from the UK visited them during a trip to Europe - the entire visit being reported in the Pottery Gazette in 1928.

Your keen observation and incisive thoughtfulness are much appreciated.

Glen
Title: Prunts
Post by: paradisetrader on August 16, 2005, 08:39:04 PM
How common or un-common is a 4 part mold ?
Title: Prunts
Post by: Glen on August 16, 2005, 09:03:14 PM
Well, I just picked about ten pieces of European Carnival up at random, and over half of them came from four part moulds.

I haven't gone through the rest of the collection (USA, European etc., etc., etc). It could take some time.

Glen
Title: Prunts
Post by: paradisetrader on August 16, 2005, 09:11:32 PM
Oh please Glen don't worry further. Your sample is sufficient to tell me that it's not as peculiar as I had imagined. It's just that the vast majority of my pressed glass vases are 3 part. This has a bearing on another thread which I shall now return to. Thank you for your help. Peter
Title: Prunts
Post by: Glen on August 16, 2005, 09:13:54 PM
Peter, I would guess that a lot of the USA Classic Carnival will be three part moulds. But there are certainly plenty of my European items that are from four parts (one of them is a teeny tiny bowl - so quite an amazing mould for that exquisite little piece).
Title: Prunts
Post by: aa on August 17, 2005, 02:52:34 AM
Greetings from New York, where the New York International Gift Show is almost over and the hard work of packing for shipping two hundred and fifty pieces of glass in about four hours will soon begin! (The worst bit).

The icing bag analogy is a little off the mark, but not as much as you might think.....because in the case of the original photo shown, the star shape is created before the prunt is added. There are many similarities between confectionary techniques and glass making techniques.

To create this form of prunt, you take a gather and press it in to an open (dip) mould, that looks a bit like a jelly mould. Sometimes called an optic mould. this is a multi purpose former that can be used in paperweight making to create the profile of a star or flower in cane making.

So having created a hot lump of glass with a ribbed effect, this is brought to the gaffer, who touches the body of the vessel with the hot bit and shears a piece off. The process is repeated as necessary. Reheating melts the shear mark away.

Another use for a dip mould such as this is to create the twisted stems that can be seen in one of Leni's previous posts....  sherry (?) glasses.
Title: Prunts
Post by: Leni on August 17, 2005, 07:58:13 AM
Quote from: "aa"
The icing bag analogy is a little off the mark, but not as much as you might think....

I knew it!  :roll: What did I say? :lol:
Quote
Another use for a dip mould such as this is to create the twisted stems that can be seen in one of Leni's previous posts....  sherry (?) glasses.
 
I presume you mean these, my Murano glasses, http://tinypic.com/anbf9c.jpg  5 wine (6 originally  :cry: ) and 2 liquer (all we could carry in our hand-luggage at the time   :roll: )

Leni
Title: Prunts
Post by: Adam on August 17, 2005, 10:41:58 AM
I know I am repeating myself here, but it is just possible that new members may run away with the idea that three part or four part (or two) is a fashion decision.  "part" is the same as "section".

It is an entirely practical matter.  If a vase, for example, won't come out of a two part mould without having lumps torn off it then a three part would be used.  Ditto three to four part.

The only exception which occurs to me is that some (old) mould shops might not have machine tools capable of coping with the odd angles in a three part mould.  They would then have to step straight from two to four parts.  I don't know of any actual examples of this, however.

Fundamentally, the smaller number of parts which it is possible to use the less the cost.


Adam D.
Title: Prunts
Post by: Glen on August 19, 2005, 04:25:35 PM
Although this has nothing specifically to do with prunts, it has everything to do with moulds (which we have been discussing). I don't know if any of you have ever looked through my extensive feature on Rindskopf (it's on my website - click Rindskopf Revealed to see the main menu for the feature)....however, on one of the pages I have shown some original mould drawings from the Rindskopf factory. They are fascinating and informative to study.

http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/RindMouldDrawings.html

Glen

PS Adam D if you happen to look at these drawings....is that jug with the handle (bottom set of drawings) similar to the "innovative" concept you were describing that Pyrex did, in your fantastic thread on Press Moulds?
Title: Prunts
Post by: Adam on August 20, 2005, 02:17:44 PM
Glen - First, to clear up one thing.  When I showed the two "Pyrex" jugs I wasn't suggesting that the second was innovative or some sort of big break-through.  The method has been used before.  I was simply giving it as an example of a very sensible way of getting rid of a two part mould and replacing it with a solid mould - desirable for all sorts of reasons.

Now back to your pictures.  The lower ones show a two part press mould. It is a very good illustration of a press mould, showing the very strong hinge and locking knuckles which are essential.  The jug handle, although being pressed in the way I showed, looks as though it is intended later to be bent down and attached at the bottom.  I suspect there is a bit of artistic licence in the length of handle.

The upper pictures clearly show a blow mould as it is intended to be held shut by hand or by a simple latch with no real strength and, of course, the jug shown could not be pressed in the shape shown.  I am, however, totally baffled by the jug handle which would be impossible to do in a blow mould.  Are the two sets of pictures supposed to tell a story (bottom first) of some sort of press and blow process?  If so they remind me of the sort of fanciful things which often appear in patent specifications although these are clearly not patent drawings.

I am about to go away for five or six days so any follow-up will not get a reply until then.

Adam D.
Title: Prunts
Post by: Glen on August 20, 2005, 03:03:30 PM
Adam - thanks for your reply. I'm afraid I can't cast much light on what the mould drawings were for, other than they were found by Professor Ridley (who is a descendant of the Rindskopf family) in amongst the family's photos etc of the Rindskopf factory circa the 1920s - 1930s. I copied them exactly as they were given to me and that's all I can say. There is no more information at all - but I thought you all might be interested to see them.

Glen
Title: Prunts
Post by: Leni on September 27, 2005, 09:45:47 AM
I've got a vase with a flower prunt covering the pontil mark.  Is this still called a prunt, or does it have a different name when used in this way?  It's definitely a flower, not a raspberry!

Leni
Title: Prunts
Post by: heartofglass on April 25, 2006, 04:27:01 AM
It's still called a prunt when applied to an item's base.
The prunts covered the pontil, & are typically signs of Stourbridge origin-& supposedly higher quality pieces, such as Stevens & Williams 'Matsu-no-ke'.
Is this your piece, Leni? If so, I'm terribly envious!
The prunts were made using a spring-loaded tool (patented by Northwood, c.1870s) that pressed a blob of glass into a flower shape,etc. This was the same method for making applied flowers for 'Matsu-no-ke' & other fancy applied work pieces.
See Hajdamach's "British Glass 1800-1914" for info on patents for these decorations & their related specialised tools.
Gulliver's "Victorian Decorative Glass" also has many close-up images of different prunts on items by makers such as S&W & Thomas Webb & sons.
Prunts are a very old glass decoration, especially favoured by German & Northern European glass-makers.
There were drinking glasses studded all over with spiky prunts that apparently gave the drinker a better grip upon their glass, especially when tipsy &/or greasy-handed from eating without cutlery!
 :lol:
Title: Prunts
Post by: Leni on April 25, 2006, 08:16:47 AM
Quote from: "heartofglass"
It's still called a prunt when applied to an item's base.
The prunts covered the pontil, & are typically signs of Stourbridge origin-& supposedly higher quality pieces, such as Stevens & Williams 'Matsu-no-ke'.
Is this your piece, Leni? If so, I'm terribly envious!

Well, I thought I'd get some better pics of my Matsu-no-ke vase for Marinka   :wink: http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1621  and its pontil mark  http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1620 However, no prunt on this one!  

Sadly this lovely vase, like most of my collection  :oops: has some damage.  It has lost part of a leaf (on the left) and a strawberry is missing on the right)  :(  http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1618  as well as a couple of petals off the flower  http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1619  but I still think it's lovely!    :D

However, the vase with the 'prunt' is my Acanthus leaf one, which I think is Stevens & Williams  :shock:  Am I right?  :? http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1623  The prunt is definitely a flower, not a raspberry!  http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1622

This, too has a broken foot (I hid it at the back in the photo :wink: ) and the tip of one leaf is missing, but again ..... still lovely, IMHO   :D
Title: Prunts
Post by: heartofglass on April 25, 2006, 08:34:44 AM
Thanks for that Leni! :D
Beautiful vases! They are very difficult to obtain without damage.
The strawberry one is special,I've never seen one of those for sale. I have 2 vases & a basket with cherries & quite a few others with acanthus leaves, oak leaves & acorns, & various types of flowers.
Some are damaged, but I can overlook it on these wonderful old pieces.
None of mine have prunts over the pontil. :(
They all have either polished or rough pontil scars.
The acathus vase is an example of a range called "Autumnal Ware", & it is by S&W.
Title: Prunts
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 25, 2006, 03:35:29 PM
:D:D:D

I may have to ressurect this post at some time when I've got a camera - 'cos although it doesn't have a prunt, I have obtained recently a beautiful vaseline glass acorn! :D 8) :D. Not an Audrey, but it will do.
(acorns were just mentioned)
Title: Prunts
Post by: Leni on April 25, 2006, 04:09:25 PM
Let me guess .... is it an 'Acorn & Leaf Chalice'?   :shock:  :D

I have seen them attributed to Northwood, Dugan and (strangely, I thought!) Moser, but I'm not an expert in American vaseline / uranium glass.  (Well, I'm not actually an expert in any sort of glass  :oops:  :roll:  :lol: )  Does anyone know who actually made them?  And I understand repros were made by somebody after the 1930's.  Anyone know by whom?

Hurry up and get your camera, Sue!   :shock:  :roll:
Title: Prunts
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 25, 2006, 05:51:24 PM
If it's the acorn and leaf chalice (a spooner really) I think you think it is, it's by Mosser Glass http://www.mosserglass.com/ Lovely things but lacking that old factor

And here is one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7409750836
Title: Prunts
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 27, 2006, 08:26:08 PM
:D:D:D

 :oops: Sorry for my delay in replying - the notification was over the page in my in-box.

My acorn is just an acorn. It has bent, sort of pointy, leafy feet, like the thorn vases. It might have had 3 at one time, but only has 2 now. It's big, for an acorn, and it is hollow, with a lip. You could get your pinkie tip in it. It's very sweet. :D
 :? I suspected something Stourbridge-y, perhaps frigger-y. :?:
Title: Prunts
Post by: heartofglass on April 28, 2006, 02:34:00 AM
Sue, is it anything like any of these?
I couldn't quite tell if you meant the vase itself was acorn-shaped or if it had applied decorations...sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree on this one!
Anyway, Victoriana buffs should enjoy these! :)
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/acorn-vase.jpg)
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/acorn-bowl.jpg)
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/acorn-vases.jpg)
Title: Prunts
Post by: heartofglass on April 28, 2006, 07:33:15 AM
They all glow wonderfully green under U.V,despite their whiteness!
All of the white cased items with applied flowers & the like that I've got in my collection have uranium.It's odd that it was used to make white glass, but I'm not complaining! :D
In fact, when I first got a black light a few years ago, I was happily shining it around the house at all the obvious pieces of vaseline glass- & was very surprised to see all the white things that turned green! :shock:
I tried it on my glass button collection later & found that a lot of rather plain looking white buttons have a double life as glowing green ones!
Hours of fun! :lol:
Title: Prunts
Post by: chopin-liszt on April 28, 2006, 08:15:37 AM
:D:D:D

Oh - I know I need that camera! Trouble is, I have this non-nagging policy. It works.... eventually.  :twisted:

I've been upstairs and got hold of my acorn, I can actually get my entire finger into it, but I've got quite small hands. It's not a vase, it may have been for spills or toothpicks, but the narrow opening leaves me thinking it is just a table decoration. The narrow opening is in the top of the nut.
Title: Prunts
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 28, 2006, 09:56:11 AM
LOL :lol: at Sue with a large glass acorn stuck on her finger.

I have a small collection of white uranium glass: two Victorian baskets, a Victorian bowl, a small Victorian vase, a piece of American depression glass (I did know the manufacturer but the only name that comes to me is Kerr-McGee and thats an oil company!) and a piece of souvenir ware  from Canada that might be Fenton custard glass,