Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: albglass on July 29, 2010, 04:08:09 AM
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Hi, I have a fishscale cameo vase, rose on opal glass. These are routinely attributed to Webb. These typically have a G. L. F. signature in script in gold on the bottom (as does mine), and auction houses advertise the signature as being that of George L. Fereday. However, I can find nothing in my reference books about a George L Fereday, only a J.T. Fereday. Was there really a George Fereday at Webb? Thank you!
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There was certainly a John Thomas Fereday who was a cameo carver. A picture of the "Woodall cameo team" in Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 shows Tom and George Woodall, Tom Farmer, Harry Davies, William Hill and JT Fereday.
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Yes, I have this book and have seen the information on J. T. Fereday. The question is whether there was a George Fereday at Webb--perhaps a relative of John? Or perhaps G.L.F. is not George Fereday at all...
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English Cameo Glass by Ray and Lee Grover only mentions John and does not show anything resembling your vase in dozens of pictures. (I found a bowl and a crystal dish online marked GLF) Is it marked Webb? Or is that " it's Webb" another auctioneer assumption?
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Is it like these ones with the same initials?
http://www.prices4antiques.com/glass/webb/Webb-Fereday-GL-Cameo-Bowl-Fishscale-Design-4-inch-B196010.htm
http://www.icollector.com/WEBB-BOWL_i1207107
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Yes, mine is a melon shape with gilding on a top collar, but it is exactly the same color and decoration, thanks! Are these being correctly attributed to Webb?
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That's the question. I think Webb is an much overused attribution in the US, a bit like Whitefriars is here.
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No idea if the attribution is right, but I figured if we could see what we're talking about someone may be able to add more for us. Pictures in support of a question do help enormously. :) I think if we tweak the topic title that might help catch someone's eye too...
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Thanks for adding the links to some examples of the fishscale cameo vases, Anne! This is my first posting on glassmessages and I am still trying to figure out how everything works. It remains to be seen if I can figure out how to change the subject title to something more interesting. If it does turn out that G.L.F. was not George L. Fereday, or that G.L.F. was not at Webb, I think this would be important information. Over the years, I have seen perhaps a dozen of these come up at auction, and every one attributes them to a George Fereday at Webb.
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I've already changed it for you as you can only edit your own posts for a short time after making them - after that you need one of the Moderators to do it for you. :) Let's see if one of the Webb specialists can help now. ;)
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Not an expert but no mention of him in 'Art Feat and Mystery' the story of T.Webb,also looked in 'The Crystal Years' S&W and most of my other books,zilch,
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Nothing in Dodsworth (British Glass Between the Wars) or Angus-Butterworth (British Table & Ornamental Glass) either...
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It turns out that the fishscale vases (example attached) were not made by Webb, and not even made in England. One of these vases turned up with an RD number on it that showed that it was registered in 1885 by Wittman & Roth, an importer of foreign glass and china. There is evidence that they did design some of their pieces, so it is possible that they did the design (or maybe not). Some of their imports have been traced back to Bohemia. I have not found any information on whether they imported from other countries. I still know nothing about the mysterious GLF signature, except that it would not be a George L. Fereday from Webb since it is not a Webb piece.
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but that is one stunningly beautiful vase :thud: :mrgreen:
I'm sure you will find the maker at some point - seriously jealous here.
m
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I realise that the Webb attribution has been blown, but to follow up on the Fereday name. Jason Ellis does not mention a George at all in his book "Glassmakers of Stourbridge and Dudley 1612-2002". the only two Feredays are mentioned on page 474, note 53:
"John Thomas Fereday, son of Joseph Fereday, who ran a grocery shop in Church Street, Kingswinford and his wife Sarah; b 18th Mar 1854, Kingswinford; PRO 1881 cencus of Kingswinford RG11/2893/6; d. 28th Feb 1942 at Llandudno."
I am therefore guessing (from this well researched source) that there was no George L Fereday and that it arose from one original misconception being copied by others.
Nigel
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:thud:
You think it's stunningly beautiful, Flying Free?
Ummm, I think it looks like a bum in pink fishnet tights. :pb:
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Oh dear. That had occured to me, but I thought, no Nigel, "Leave it!!!!". I still think it's a very good piece of work; just that a photograph has rendered a very unfortunate representation - well, to some of us reprobates ;)
Sorry about my mind :o :pb:
Nigel
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oh .... yes it does! :24: :24: :24: but then you know I love figural pieces ;D
And after all, if we were all after the same pieces of glass then the world would be more boring for it - a difference in taste is to be celebrated :kissy: I will be expecting no competition then when one comes up for auction :rah:
m
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I prefer my Bertil Vallien bum - it's wearing leather or pvc. :bat:
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I wonder if they aren't Harrach. I have a fishscale tall vase with a clear design over it.
This piece is harrach
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-Harrach-843.html
then I got this piece recently.
which has a very similar feel, I don't know what the RD traces back to but it's got the mark of the retailer mentioned above; Whitman and Roth. The Seller attributed it to Webb and I had thought of this style as always attributed to webb but at heart I've been thinking it really looks like Harrach. My clear fishscale pieces have a slightly different pattern than the cameo ones though. the design is sunken in the colored pieces as opposed to raised in mine. Also the way the base is finished does look like the way I stereo-typically think of Webb cased. a giant polished pontil that takes up nearly the entire base. Whereas Harrach seems to be more restrained in their pontil polishing.
does anyone know of a way to track down this RD number? 39086? I am guessing it will trace to whitman and roth.
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39086 dates to 1885 in the UK according to the list however that number is not listed on the Great Glass site, so I don't know who it might be registered to (hopefully someone else will have another list with the number in it perhaps)
Oddly I would have gone for Webb or Loetz on that vase because for some reason the gilded collar reminds me of something - It might well be a Harrach something it reminds me of though. I'll have a search but I'm sure I've seen it on another piece.
I'd forgotten about this vase.
The feet on yours though do remind me of Harrach pieces - they like those feet as far as I recall :)
Lovely vase Alisa - really slightly envious of both pieces here :)
m
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adding to my post above - how is that pink one made? is it mould blown to get that pattern? is it completely pink or pink over cream/white?
That large pontil mark is unusual for Harrach isn't it?
My instinct is not saying Webb at the moment though and I think the signature might read G S F :-X
Here's another version - there seems to be a few around
http://www.humlernolan.com/Auctions/December-2011/Art-Glass/0742
and another shape here
http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antique-Glass-/Antique-Glass-Vases/Antique-Fish-Scale-Cameo--Art-Glass-Vase
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1094243
and there are two on ebay America
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-ANTIQUE-WEBB-FISH-SCALE-CAMEO-ART-GLASS-BUTTERFLY-GOLD-ENAMEL-MELON-VASE-/390656691565
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEAUTIFUL-WEBB-CAMEO-FISH-SCALE-ENAMELED-ART-GLASS-DISH-/370260468673
This one says it is signed GSF and gives a good pic of the sig
http://fineart.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=614&lotIdNo=21008
They all seem to be for sale in the US
I don't suppose they could be an American maker could they? I know nothing about American glass so I'm sorry if that is an obviously stupid question it's just there seems to be quite a few over your side.
m
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they are definitely not american. the pattern is got by acid cut back. it's almost certainly a retailers signature. it might be an american reseller. the huge pontil is definitely a Webb thing over Harrach. Not saying harrach never had massive pontil scars but it's way more typical of Webb. The tall one I have is definitely Harrach and I have a strong feeling the rosebowl is as well. I don't think they're all necessarily from the same makers. I think it's commissioned stuff.
the fish scale on the two color ones vs the crystal is definitely different. the retailer found for my rosebowl (per earlier in the conversation) has also been connected with the multi color pieces though.
I wouldn't rule out Harrach for the dual color pieces either though.
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I'll look around a bit in my harrach museum pics and whatnot the two vase shapes look very familiar to me.
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https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_laAjfMFHC9pekpEVziT3PiepaC6HmOqHRqF2S98L-U?feat=directlink
here is a clear example from the Harrach depository.
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Alisa, as you mention, I agree your new clear fishscale has different decor from the pink ones and the lobed white one I linked to.
I think your new clear fishscale is a match for the one in the depository, they have the same gilding on the rim as well and from what I can tell the pattern looks random on the depository one as yours is.
My observations on the pink and white ones and the white lobed one:
The decor on the pink and white ones (and the lobed white on white one) are shell shaped scales and fairly uniform in design. If they are from the same maker as your clear one I think they are a different range.
I think it's a bit odd that they are all in the States and none found here in the UK (Stevens and Williams might have been another option with the large pontil mark? - however I can't see a pontil mark on the white one at all)
I think the signature is GSF not GLF.
Re the white lobed one - it isn't signed, I cannot see a large polished pontil mark, although the picture is bad it looks as though the pattern continues right over the base, the size seems the same height as the pink (measuring width is difficult as one might have measured straight on and another diagonal, but they quote different width sizes), and the pattern around the rim is not identical to the pink one shown on here but is similar. But those might all be difference from when the mould was used, perhaps a different timescale/decorator?
There is a four lobed Harrach vase in the Truitt's Bohemian glass 1880-1940 page 57. Different neck and rim but small foot underneath 4 fat lobes.
m
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quote...................'39086 dates to 1885 in the UK according to the list however that number is not listed on the Great Glass site, so I don't know who it might be registered to (hopefully someone else will have another list with the number in it perhaps)'.
don't know whether it's of interest still, but can say that this number was Resgistered to .... Sidney Wittmann, Wittmann & Roth, London. Glass & China Manufacturer. Under the heading of 'Description' it reads................... 'Raised pattern on glass surface to imitate hammered metal'. The registration was dated 30th November 1885. :)
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:) thank you so much Paul
That's interesting that it's a London company. So they were 'Glass and China Manufacturers' according to that registration and registered in London. I wonder were companies registered as manufacturers if they didn't actually manufacture something?
And how odd that so many are found in the States - or again perhaps that's a function of International buying because they were sold as Webb's maybe?
That doesn't mean they aren't English production though I guess, it just means that Wittman put their reg number on the bottom of them. I wonder then, as has been said before, if Wittman and Roth designed them and had them made.... somewhere. As they have registered the design I presume it means they designed it?
What ties Alisa's and the pink ones together possibly is that Alisa's has that reg number on the bottom and OP commented earlier that another had been found with the same reg number on the bottom.
'One of these vases turned up with an RD number on it that showed that it was registered in 1885 by Wittman & Roth, an importer of foreign glass and china.'
That assumes the 'other that had been found' is in the same decor as the OP's and isn't in fact a different decor that looked similar, i.e. another like Alisa's. It also gives Wittman and Roth a different slant stating that they were importers rather than the Manufacturer that Paul has found they put along with this registration number. However a comment here in the link below says that a lawsuit was filed in 1884 and their company was given as a China and Glass manufacturer
http://www.kovels.com/201110268943/Mystery-Marks/owl-mark.html
m
m
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Adding to my post above
This link here is a news report from 1879 and shows that Wittman and Roth exhibited Iridescent and ornamental glass as part of the British Exhibit I think at the Sydney International Exhibition if I've understood correctly (read and scroll down using the left hand side of the page)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13445525
They are listed as Great Marlborough Street London - ummm, would glassmaking have gone on in Great Marlborough street? or is it likely that is a retail outlet address?
In this report in the London Gazette, Wittman and Roth desribed themselves as 'Merchants' and state that their partnership is dissolved... that was in 1879 report stating they dissolved in December 1878 - but apparently they registered a glass item years later under the name Wittman and Roth?
And in this report in the London Gazette of 1896 it states that Wittman and Wittman have dissolved their partnership-
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26703/pages/444/page.pdf
Oh and one more thing
There is a jug here (see link) below that is reminiscent of Alisa's vase and the Harrach vase and it has a reg number on it of 39086. The blurb about it says
'Registered Design number 39086 was allocated to 'Sidney Wittmann, of Wittmann & Roth' London, described as 'Glass & China Manufacturer', on 30th November 1885. The design was described as 'Raised pattern on glass surface to imitate hammered metal'. Sidney and F Pohl, a member of the Bohemian Pohl family, apparently patented a method of making glass in imitation of tortoise shell on 25th October 1880. That would appear to date this creamer quite well ca. 1885 - 1890, as the pitcher is signed with the acid mark capital W within an Owl standing on a crescent moon. Carved & Decorated European Art Glass / all by Ray & Lee Grover; British Glass 1800-1914 / by Charles R. Hajdamach; Victorian Decorative Glass British Designs, 1850-1914 / by Mervyn Gulliver; Decorative Victorian Glass / by Cyril Manley; Nineteen Century British Glass / by Hugh Wakefield'
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5715096
Obviously the only link between this/Alisa's and the pink ones is if an actual pink one the same decor as op's has been found with the same reg number on it.
On the other hand, whilst the pattern looks a little more random than the pink vases, it does look remarkably similar in parts - possibly it was adapted and made less random but still the same maker?
The photos on this linked clear jug look as though it's very similar in the way it is constructed pattern wise. There's a nice butterfly on it as well if you look through the photos :) (That Harrach butterfly? or is it a Webb butterfly? I get confused ;D )
And likewise a nice gilded butterfly on this pink version which also states in the blurb that it has a 'registry mark' at the bottom. Might that be 39086 I wonder?
http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antique-Glass-/Antique-Glass-Vases/Antique-Fish-Scale-Cameo--Art-Glass-Vase
However, I'm not sure which of the reference sources given above are the source for the comment
'Sidney and F Pohl, a member of the Bohemian Pohl family, apparently patented a method of making glass in imitation of tortoise shell on 25th October 1880. ' and who knows whether this 39086 is a presentation of the 'tortoise shell' .
This source at Great Glass shows Franz Pohl was at Harrach 1884-1900
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/manh-k.htm
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mmm, I had my suspicions about the description for that listing for the jug as I've come across other incorrectly identified pieces from that particular collection
The description as I posted above was
There is a jug here (see link) below that is reminiscent of Alisa's vase and the Harrach vase and it has a reg number on it of 39086. The blurb about it says
'Registered Design number 39086 was allocated to 'Sidney Wittmann, of Wittmann & Roth' London, described as 'Glass & China Manufacturer', on 30th November 1885. The design was described as 'Raised pattern on glass surface to imitate hammered metal'. Sidney and F Pohl, a member of the Bohemian Pohl family, apparently patented a method of making glass in imitation of tortoise shell on 25th October 1880. That would appear to date this creamer quite well ca. 1885 - 1890, as the pitcher is signed with the acid mark capital W within an Owl standing on a crescent moon. Carved & Decorated European Art Glass / all by Ray & Lee Grover; British Glass 1800-1914 / by Charles R. Hajdamach; Victorian Decorative Glass British Designs, 1850-1914 / by Mervyn Gulliver; Decorative Victorian Glass / by Cyril Manley; Nineteen Century British Glass / by Hugh Wakefield'
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5715096
In Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 page 307 there is a description of an S.A. Wittmann and F Pohl design being patented in England on 25th October 1880 -the description of the effect sounds absolutely NOTHING like the clear jug above
It is described thus
'Ornamenting glass in imitation of tortoiseshell. Bulbs of dark and light brown glass are blown, and broken into fragments. A bulb of plain glass is then blown... ' etc. it then goes onto describe use of silver chloride and yellow ochre and other materials for producing a yellow stain. So they have used a description of a completely different process in that listing and I'm not sure for what purpose unless to try and link Wittman to F Pohl.
So the clear jug above is a clear jug with a pattern on it and a registration number... but not the tortoiseshell design registered by Wittman and Pohl.
I think the jug is the same maker as Alisa's vase and the vase in the Harrach depository ( does it being in the Harrach depository definitely mean it was made by Harrach though is always my question, given the Richardson pieces that turned out not to be Richardson?) - however what needs to be firmly identified is whether a pink fishscale version has the same rd number on it as Alisa's vase and the jug above.
That might link them together as coming from the same maker, but doesn't necessarily mean they were by the same maker. If Wittman designed the design he could have had different makers make it couldn't he?
m
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here is a bowl and creamer/jug but no detailed description
http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2353/lots/296
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and bingo
http://www.trocadero.com/mckinleyhill/items/769215/en6.html
This pink one does have the same reg number on the bottom except this one is painted on in black script Rd 39086 with a black thin line rectangle around it.
Size: 4.5" Dia. x 4.875" H.
It's the vase that has many lobes and small flared rim and is the pink over white with a gilded pattern of leaves and stems and fruits or berries plus a butterfly. So they are the same registered design number, i.e the clear of Alisa's and the jug and this pink one.
So the big question - not Webb but Harrach possibly?
m
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ooh I've just found this one
http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/antiquedetail.asp?autonumber=47399
Alisa does that bird look like a Harrach bird?
Are there any other similarities with Harrach pieces?
And then there was Baccarat (which might fit the large pontil mark? and the fish scale design and the clear and pink white colour scheme) but not sure about all the shapes?
http://mcstithantiques.com/product.php?product=336
m
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The following may be of interest, as it provides background to J T Fereday:
John Thomas Fereday, son of Joseph Fereday, who ran a grocery shop in Church Street, Kingswinford and his wife Sarah; b. 18th Mar 1854, Kingswinford...
Endnote 53, p.474
Because of the decline in the Cameo trade, John Thomas Fereday turned his attention to engraved glass and introduced the Dynasty crystal range. This used Egyptian motifs and such a set was chosen for a wedding gift in 1922 to HRH The Princess Royal. Fereday signed the sets. Fereday worked at Webb's for over forty years until he retired in 1922 ... His favourite colour for cameo was yellow.
p.469
Source: Glassmakers of Stourbridge and Dudley 1612–2002, Jason Ellis
If you are interested in Stourbridge glass and its history, then this is one book you definitely need. Fantastic research, although rather sparsely illustrated. But 600pp of text! Hope this is of interest, if not necessarily pertinent.
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Thank you David :)
m
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It should really have been the 2nd post, not on the 4th page ;D
Should have added:
Pub: Xlibris. 2002
ISBN: 9781401067991
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just bumping this thread to see if there is any further information
I found this one with a picture - does it help in id'ing maker?
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/a-whitman-and-roth-of-london-attributed-glass-687-c-27505b9808
Description reads
' A Whitman and Roth of London attributed glass baluster vase, decorated in gilt with bamboo, registration number 39086, height 11ins'
It appears to have the same fishscale acid etched glass background glass and has been decorated with thick stalks of bamboo and leaves all gilded. The foot is also gilded - just instinct and probably wrong, but the foot doesn't look very Bohemian to me?
And I found this on Christie's.
No picture but there is a description of a different vase marked for Whitman and Roth rd number 41925 registered 26 January 1886
It says, the glass maybe 'Continental'
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=890453
'A pair of acid etched and gilt decorated globular bowls in
the Japanese taste
with richly gilt rope twist rims and bracket feet, gilt in burnished shades with fish and aquatic plants reserved on an
acid-etched sty lised wave ground, acid stamp registration mark 41 925 for the London retailers Wittman and Roth,
26th January 1886, the glass perhaps Continental (one foot broken and restuck) -- 1 1 .5cm. high'
Bearing in mind also the jug I linked to here (see link below) has almost all it's gilding worn off and a mustard yellow raised ground appears for the design which would have been gilded.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5715096
m
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http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5778409
for reference - no markings on it that are mentioned.
m
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a Webb Ivory cameo bowl with a fishscale base - I wonder if this is where the two and two made five came in? Nothing like the vases in question. But the base has a fishscale pattern on it although the walls do not.
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/ivory-cameo-bowl? page=1&query=cameo&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=60
m
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Hi, you asked if= Are the fishscale cameo vases marked as GLF (George L. Fereday) by Webb?
YES, About mine. Information that came with mine. The JAPANESE influance she refered to is becouse of the style of the feet.
With museum ascension.
I have seen one on-line with a trademark, an owl combined with the letter W. on the base. I exchanged serveral E=MAILS with the owner.
VASE
ENGLISH, THOMAS WEBB AND SONS, STOURBRIDGE GLASS. CASED AND SCALE-CUT WITH PARCEL-GILT, THE CUTTING BY J. P. FEREDAY.
CA. 1880
This rare vase by one of the 19th century's greatest cameo glass cutters, FEREDAY, is an example of the very expensive wares produced under the JAPANESE INFLUANCE. tHE "FISH SCALE" CUTTING WAS DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE BUT IMPARTED a SUBTLE COLORING TO THE TRADITIONA, JAPANESE FORM OF THE VASE.
Such pieces were generally made for display on table-tops or in vitrines. They were not produced to serve any function other than a decorative one.
LENT BY MURAL CHARON.
She was an dealer auther and a pleasure to know.
I hope this information is Beneficial tpo all.
Bob
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Hi Bob
Welcome to the board :)
I love your vase - it's a superb colour and shape.
I'm just cross referencing your post to the thread regarding the Fishscale vase for future reference so they are linked together.
m
[ Mod: topics merged and cross ref removed ]
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Thank you flying free. I have been a member of the boards for years. I changed my user name so it say's I am new.
I consider it the pride of my collection. Murral was a wealth of knowledge. Moser, Tiffany, Loetz etc.
Bob
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Bob, I wonder what the source of her identification is though?
The initials you quoted (JPS) don't seem to match with either the John Thomas Fereday mentioned just earlier in the thread, or with the initials that have been seen on the base of the vases.
From what has been seen and written so far, that doesn't preclude them being made by John Thomas Fereday, because they might have been, and the initials of GLS or GLF seen on the base may also still be a retailer.
There is the other issue of the pattern matching up with a vase seen at the Harrach depository and the link between a Bohemian maker and Whitman which also needs to be disentangled.
m
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http://fieldingsauctions.co.uk/lot/4696
This vase was sold through Fieldings in 2012. It has a reg design number on it of 41925. I can't find that number on the list I use, but don't have the books and presumably Fieldings checked that number out to give it an id of Thomas Webb. It has a 'shell' shape small repeat pattern all over it. There is what looks like another version of this pattern in the Gulliver's Victorian Decorative glass 1850-1914 on page 271 with a different registered design number, but the pattern is the other way up to that on this vase.
There are differences but this vase/jardiniere shape seems to me to bear a marked similarity in shape to this bowl (one with the particular fishscale pattern we are discussing on this thread) I thought, although it is much larger in size. You need to get to a photo which shows the three ribs on this Trocadero link, to compare the shape properly.
http://www.trocadero.com/mckinleyhill/items/769215/en1.html
Provided the registration number on the Fieldings bowl checks out as Thomas Webb, I think there might be good reason that the fishscale pieces have been attributed to Thomas Webb, although each piece of 'fishscale' on this thread will need double checking.
m
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Just for future reference:
A shell shape pattern was registered by Thomas Webb on October 8 1886, no 58374 (Source: Gullivers Victorian Decorative Glass 1850-1914 page 271) The pattern shown 'appears', to my eye, to be a similar but upside down version of the pattern seen on the Fieldings vase I linked to above, although the 'shells' only have 3 lines on them and the Fieldings version seems to have possibly 5 including the outline of the shell shape.
http://fieldingsauctions.co.uk/lot/4696
In Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 page 433 for Thomas Webb, a similar pattern is shown (on a straight sided vase line drawing - on the top line of pictures) to the Gulliver's design and called ARABESQUE (it also says 'Also called Scale) and has a date of 1886. It's a difficult line drawing pattern to make out but to me looks the same as the reg design in Gullivers i.e. an upside down version of the shape of the pattern on the vase at Fieldings but with only 3 lines on each 'shell' shape.
The design number of 41925 on the Fieldings vase would date it in the list to January 1886. But that number is not listed on Great Glass so will need to be checked against maker.
m
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One in cream with a self pattern fishscale on it, 4 bulbous corners as well and the gilded rim - this one has a few gilded fish on it and some frondy gilded seaweed - signed in black in hand script GLF (or whatever) on the base
http://eronjohnsonantiques.com/collections/glassware/products/g0720-english-stevens-and-williams-koi-decorated-glass-vase
m
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http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/104880
two more to add. Pink with the fishscale pattern, tall vases with gilded bamboo leaves on them. Unmarked.
Sold at Fielding's, Centuries of Glass March 2014 lot 382 for £440.00 the pair, who say:
'A pair of late 19th Century Stourbridge glass vases, possibly Thomas Webb & Sons, of slender ovoid form with tall drawn necks, each cased in pink over opal and acid cut with a repeat scale design, over gilt decorated in the Oriental taste with bamboo, unmarked, height 22cm.'
This lot 383 in the same sale, appears to have the fishscale pattern but is a clear ground with gilded bamboo and blossom, apparently with an Rd Number to the base - no pic shown of that.
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/104881
There are quite a few of these designs around now, with the fishscale pattern in pink on cream, or cream on cream aren't there? Then the one or two in clear.
m
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Art-Nouveau-Rare-Glass-Vase-Gilded-Decoration-c-1885-Bird-Butterfly-Flowers-/261461191708?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item3ce04d2c1c
another one here, clear again, different shape but also has that rd number on the base.
Has a gilded bird on leaves, some tall thin reedy type leaves with small flowers on the other side and a butterfly. The foot is shallow splayed and gilded
m
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Hi, I may have posted under a different name. Here is the base of my oriental style vase. Bob
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I think the attribution is based on the background of Webb faux cameo pieces of a later date than this. Although Webb had patented a process that would lead to the faux cameo method in 1870s.
I also feel that the GSF (prefer S to L too) raised scale outline decoration style was used by various makers but possibly not Webb at all. I doubt the GSF variation to be cameo and achieved by flashing and blowing in a mould.
The Roth version is also a contender for mould blown.
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Hard to say, but this c1900 Bruder Rachmann scent spray might be a similar type of decoration although the catalogue does not describe the decoration but it falls between complex and simple cut pieces pricewise. Image copyright and courtesy glasscatalogue.com
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Just adding this for future reference.
I think it is established (thanks Christine)on another thread that this vase/bowl (listed as possibly Stevens and Williams)
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/fieldings-auctioneers-ltd/catalogue-id-srfi10026/lot-5aeb0b47-ba70-4aed-b412-a44a00f6b93d
(satin brown shaded with a gilded padded enamel pattern of branches flowers and small buds on the branches 7Mar2015 Fieldings auction lot 450)
is actually a Thomas Webb brown shaded vase (bowl).
I also believe that these vases are decorated with the same pattern as the brown shaded and I think have been done by the same enameller/gilder
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/104885
so I agree with the auctioneer's id of Thomas Webb for that pair.
The pair of vases have a gilded zigzag collar that appears to be very similar to the collar seen on this fishscale vase (it is fishscale but is difficult to tell as it's all white.
http://eronjohnsonantiques.com/products/g0720-english-stevens-and-williams-koi-decorated-glass-vase
so if the pair of vases are Thomas Webb, it is possible that the fishscale vases might also be Thomas Webb based on the collar decoration. Clearly, it still needs to be checked to see if other makers (Harrach perhaps?) also used that decorative device on the collar of their vases.
I'll add info if I find any more.
m
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I came across a potentially interesting piece of information quite by accident so wanted to add a potential candidate for maker here - Clemens Rasch, Ulrichsthal and Meisterdorf.
http://www.glass-study.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=223:glass-and-glass-ware-paris-1878-05&catid=207:us-congress-report-paris-1878&Itemid=199
A report from the 1878 Paris Exhibition (my bolding to show the wording on the pink glass):
'Clemens Rasch, Ulrichsthal and Meistersdorf.
A variety of colored decorated glass.
A very pretty pale amber service, engraved; also one in light pink; both of very pure colors.
The usual variety of decorated vases.
A new style of frosted pink vases on an opal inner coat, ground in parts to show the opal coating, and engraved upon the pink outer coat. This style is said to have been recently patented.
Black vases decorated in white enamel, and a variety of iridescent glass.'
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I'm presuming this is just the way the pontil mark has been polished but something caught my eye this morning.
Searching for cameo vases I came across this Muller Croismare vase and looked at the mark. The polished base shows what appear to be some randomly sized 'petals' in the overlay colour pink:
https://auctions.toomeyco.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=110++++++399+&refno=+++16117
I also came across this fishscale bowl in the same pink design as the others on this thread and on the base signed in black GSF but also has the remains of pink randomly sized 'petals'
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Webb-cameo-Fishscale-small-bowl-late-19th-c-11450/273777074516?hash=item3fbe62a154:g:u34AAOSwHYpaEj9k
I'm sure it's just a complete coincidence and is a result of the way the pontil mark has been finished/polished in both pieces, but thought I'd add the examples for future reference.
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Right, I knew I'd seen something that reminded me of these vases somehow.
The French connection on the base of this Muller Croismare vase as I mentioned in the post above:
https://auctions.toomeyco.com/Thumb/117/16117_view%2004_04tn.jpg
and this one on ebay that has a polished pontil base with a mark that also leaves a set of pink 'petals' showing through the white after polishing as does the Muller Croismare vase led me to my books:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Webb-cameo-Fishscale-small-bowl-late-19th-c-11450/273777074516?hash=item3fbe62a154:g:u34AAOSwHYpaEj9k
On page 265 of the La Cristallerie de Clichy plate bottom left,shows a pink cut to white vase - pear shaped with a small applied foot, Persian type pattern of the pink with gilded bands around the neck. Nothing like the GLS pink fishscale vases shapes however the pink over white is a colour scheme Clichy used.
Detail of the pink over white Persian vase can be seen here in La Cristallerie de Clichy online book link on page 156- top picture:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KEYMY4_ytuUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=la+cristallerie+de+clichy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiB5tflzNTrAhWHzKQKHS7LBNUQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=la%20cristallerie%20de%20clichy&f=false
The vase is here on page 265:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KEYMY4_ytuUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=la+cristallerie+de+clichy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiB5tflzNTrAhWHzKQKHS7LBNUQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=265&f=false
A similarly decorated neck pattern can be seen on a vase on page 290 - clear engraved vase large bulbous with a splayed foot and fish handles either side of neck in Japanese style. The rim of the neck has an engraved diagonal multi line pattern on it. Not identical to these vases but similar. Vase dates to about 1860-1870 - see right hand large vase here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KEYMY4_ytuUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=la+cristallerie+de+clichy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiB5tflzNTrAhWHzKQKHS7LBNUQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=290&f=false
I wonder if these vases were made by Clichy - or maybe Appert Freres?
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The odd pink petal mark on the base of both the fishscale and the pink cameo vase by Muller Croismare are too similar to be a coincidence. They are not identical but that's not a mark made by accident I don't think:
https://auctions.toomeyco.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=110++++++399+&refno=+++16117
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Webb-cameo-Fishscale-small-bowl-late-19th-c-11450/273777074516?hash=item3fbe62a154:g:u34AAOSwHYpaEj9k
A bit of history on Muller Croismare just in case it turns out to be important
http://www.artdecoceramicglasslight.com/makers/muller-freres/muller-freres---biograp
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Maybe from Loetz?
Very detailed information here on Wittman and Roth - Wittman & co. research and information written by Warren R. Gallé, Jr.
The initial information is on Loetz 'Octopus/Victoria' vases but if you scroll down there is detailed information on Wittman and Roth:
https://www.loetz.com/featured-articles/loetz-octopus-victoria-and-the-english-connection