Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Pinkspoons on February 21, 2006, 08:42:51 AM
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...then what is it? Any ideas anyone?
I'm just separating this optic-rib vase from my Whitefriars thread. It was purchased with a small lot of now identified WF pieces, and it's the same shape/size as a genuine WF optic-rib, but the colour's wrong. There's a fair amount of wear to the base, so it's not a new 'un.
So your guess is as good as mine...!
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/pinkspoons/wf-optic3.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/pinkspoons/wf-optic.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/pinkspoons/wf-optic2.jpg)
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Is it at all possible that it was a one-off piece for the factory shop / special order? I don't have any experience with optic-ribs, so I can't tell you if the base is right or not, so I'm just grabbing at straws here. :lol:
Scandi is a possibility, I guess - Strombergshyttan did some pieces in a similar style, so I've read.
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Hi,
Please tell us what size it is and also why do you think the colour is wrong for WF glass from the pre-war period?
When you run your fingers up and down the vase, do you feel the ribs on the inside or the outside.
Finally, the term optic-ribs when applied to WF, is as far as I can determine from the 'bible' on WF, "Whitefriars Glass" by the Museum of London team, only applies to those Art Noveau glass of Harry Powels from around 1890-1910 give or take smudging of time. What you have is a ribbed vase.
regards Geoff
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Hi.
The vase is 6" tall. There are slight undulations on the outside of the vase where the ribbing is, but it is heaviest by far on the interior.
And I just assumed that dark shades of blue was used by WF from the 1960's onwards, as all of the blue pre-war WF (that I've seen) seems to be in the light Sapphire - but I'm far from an expert in this area of glass, so I'm more than willing to be wrong on this one! haha
Thanks for the tip on the optic rib/ribbed vase terminology, though. I'd just seen these vases refered to in a few places as 'optic rib', is all.
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These are definitely known as Horizontal optic ribbed vases. Whitefriars did do a darker blue called Sanctuary Blue from the 1920's - 1940's approx. But this vase is not Sanctuary Blue. The ribbed method talked about above is a very different type of ribbing - I am not a technician - but
the reference made to page 291 of the MOL book show vases where you can feel the vertical ribbing quite definitely on the outside of the glass
The horizontal optic ribbing on Nic's vase ( and I have one the same but 8" ) is smooth on the outside and it gently undulates on the inside. They were made using a roll-mould technique, glass being shaped prior to blowing with the outer surface smoothed as the shape was formed. This style of glass was usuallky cased as well. I haven't got the answer to your vase Nic, or for mine for that matter - the colour is very much a late 60's Whitefriars colour. The shape is a W/.F shape, but it doesn't corralate with the catalogues. There may be an answer, but I don;t know what it is at this stage.
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Vidrioguapo,
Thank you for your comments, it made me re-read both the MOL book and Lesley Jackson's. Your statement that "These are definitely known as Horizontal optic ribbed vases" is only true if you read Jackson, the MOL team, using what one would persume offical Whitefriar jargon gleaned from the records they now hold, talk about "Heavy optic ribbed" so I guess either description would be acceptable - although my earlier one is flawed and please forget that :oops: .
I am confused :? Who made a reference to page 291 of the MOL book in this thread? That shows some of the Wealdstone range made for Wuidart and if you claim that the ribbing on those vases can be felt on the outside then your reference does not seem to apply to Nic's vase and the one I have, where the ribbing can be felt on the inside as described in both books. If you need a reference to heavy optic ribbed vases in the MOL book, then try page 302, plate 509, and 6 inch is one of the sizes quoted.
Colour is a problem though as the only blue quoted in the catalogue plate 509 is sapphire blue which is by WF standards usually a lot lighter than Nics vase. But of course note the date, 1940, it is surprising that WF were still making coloured glass during the war, and maybe they could obtain supplies to make Saphire Blue but not Sanctuary Blue. Having looked at Jackson's book why do you say the colour of Nic's vase is not Sanctuary Blue? The examples shown in Jackson of Sanctuary Blue look to me very similar to the photos on this thread. You must allow for inaccuracies in colour reproduction in both the book and photos displayed on any website.
Another contender could be royal Blue - but we are back to the Wealdstone range again :roll:
looking forward to more enlightenment.
regard Geoff
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Pattern 9094 was in the catalogues from 1938 to 1964.
It was only available in two blue shades. Not cased in clear crystal.
Sapphire Blue from 1938 to 1959.
Arctic Blue from 1960 to 1964.
These vases are heavily ribbed on the inside. Heaviest from the bottom and reduced as the vase flares out obviously.
The "optic ribbed" vases launched in 1962 are very smooth inside and out. The horizontal lines or "ribbing" is nowhere near as obvious as Pattern 9094. They were always cased in clear crystal in either Blue, Green, Ruby or Kingfisher Blue.
The base on this one does not look right at all I have to say. My guess is probably Swedish. Whitefriars were not the only company to do glass like this as I am sure most are well aware.
Vidfletch
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It was the base that was my main concern - the 9094's that I've seen have smaller inverted pontil marks (or at least they look smaller in the photographs). Does anyone happen to have a clear photograph of a 6" 9094 base...? Y'know... just laying around! :lol:
With regards the colour... occasionally non-catalogued oddities do pop up, but I do agree that this blue is very Scandinavian - it sits very well next to one of my blue Holmegaard kuttrolf decanters. I can't say if it is at all similar to Sanctuary Blue, as it's not a colour I'm familiar with.
But it seems to tick all of the other boxes: Not cased, reduction of ribbing with flaring, etc... but as I said earlier, I'm willing to fly with a possible Scandi origin if the evidence indicates that direction, rather than argue that it is WF until I'm blue in the mouth. :lol:
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Hi Geoff, I think I have my fingers in too many pies at the moment ---
so forget the reference to page 291 in MOL book....it is me who is confused, so apologies. It's a long story! And yes, Nics, vase should have the optic ribbing on the inside.
I don't believe it is Sanctuary Blue,; I know blue doesn't always photograph accurately, but I have a comparison pic which someone did for me a while ago, with all the blues including Sapphire, Sanctuary and Kingfisher, and the vase under discussion leans more towards Kingfisher than Sanctuary by a long shot.
In spite of all our combined knowledge, it seems we are no nearer giving this a provenance, and only time will tell. Nice vase, whatever. Perhaps it's time to move on! LOL
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...I have a comparison pic which someone did for me a while ago, with all the blues including Sapphire, Sanctuary and Kingfisher...
Ooh, would it be possible for you to post it here, please? :D
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Wish I could, but unfortunately I lost it during one of those IT nightmare moments. Perhaps someone here has a Sanctuary Blue, Sapphire Blue and ~Kingfisher blue vase collection they can photograph for you to get an idea of the difference in colours.
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Sapphire Blue I'm familiar with, as I have some of my own - it's not dissimilar to a Holmegaard aqua blue - so it's mainly the difference between Kingfisher & Sanctuary... :)
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Do you have the Lesley Jackson book? There are a few items in Sanctuary Blue in it. If you don't have it I would buy it. It is available and no more than £30 usually less. Unlike the Wendy Evans book!
The Lesley Jackson book has lovely photos but maybe a little shor ton information compared to the Wendy Evans one.
Vidfletch
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I don't have any books on WF... yet... as I'm pretty new at buying any of it. Until now my focus has been Scandi glass.
But I'll definitely look into it! If my wallet isn't feeling too shell-shocked by the Harrogate glass fair 12th of March, I'm sure I'll be able to pick one up there or the antiques fair down the road from it cheap-ish. :D
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Just to reinforce points made about this shape not being exclusive to Whitefriars... and to add that in Scandinavian terms it wasn't just Sweden making these. My Holmegaard icebucket arrived today, looking very familiar. :lol:
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/pinkspoons/wf-hg.jpg)
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I had posted a link to an item on website here before that is also similar.
Tiffin Glass made a pattern or line called Swedish Optic which is very simliar. But the dark blue does not fit for Tiffin. The lue color they used for the Swedish Optic line was most often a color they called Copen Blue which is a pale blue with almost electric blue undertone.
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Ah, like so:
Tiffin (http://www.cyberattic.com/stores/JustInTime/items/355166/en1cyberattic.html)
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Exactly Nic. They also had a flat bottomed shape similar to the shape of your vase that is commonly called a flip vase.
The piece on my website is a Copen Blue Swedish Optic Rose bowl with 3 crystal ball feet.
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Ah, another piece by Holmegaard which isn't dissimilar - and the colour's about right too.
AUCTION (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6627173133&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:UK:1)
It's a shame that the shapes don't seem to match around the base, though, otherwise I might have been closer to ID'ing mine.
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Connie
With some exceptions (ie Carnival) US glass very rarely turns up in UK.
I have a number of bucket shaped vases similar to this of varying sizes, details and qualities so I think this "pattern" if you can call it that was very widely made in Europe. I suspect Italian for a couple of mine.
Nic's one though does look of WF or Scandi quality.
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Ah, was pottering around WH Smiths today and picked up Judith Miller's '20th Century Glass' and there was a very very very similar vase (just in a lighter shade of blue) by Elis Bergh illustrated.
Was all Kosta of that era signed? Or is it just wishful thinking? hehe
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Oh, upon very very close examination, there IS a signature on the base. Unfortunately it's on the outside edge where there's a LOT of wear.
It starts:
I (or J) N then about 1cm of bad scratches and then O N (or H)
The next word (if there is one - the lines seem lighter here, less defined) appears to have a K in it, but could be just deceptive wear.
I'll attempt a photograph tomorrow when my eyelids are less heavy. :lol: