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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Connie on July 22, 2006, 12:39:16 PM

Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 22, 2006, 12:39:16 PM
I recently found this bowl at an antique mall.  I know what it is, but it is not what I thought it was when I bought it and it surprised me when I found out it's identity.

Small oval bowl (http://www.glassmavenhaven.com/connie/mysterybowl1.jpg)


green applied threading (http://www.glassmavenhaven.com/connie/mysterybowl2.jpg)

Bottom  (http://www.glassmavenhaven.com/connie/mysterybowl3.jpg)


The bowl is 5 inches long, 3 inches wide, and 2½ inches deep. It has a cut and polished edge and no pontil mark seen on bottom.

Who do you think made it?
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 22, 2006, 12:45:47 PM
Lötz? (Stab in the dark :shock: )
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 22, 2006, 01:51:21 PM
The irregular and 'free' shape of the bowl doesn't look like the product of a factory. It looks more like something I would expect from a small studio maker (mid-late 20th C).
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 22, 2006, 02:01:41 PM
No, both guesses wrong. Not Loetz and it is not a studio artist piece.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: KevinH on July 22, 2006, 02:44:26 PM
Must be a Fenton special then.  :?:  :?:  :shock:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 22, 2006, 02:55:03 PM
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

No,  it is not Fenton. Although I can see why you think that since I am known as the Fenton Maven  :wink:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 22, 2006, 03:48:19 PM
Whitefriars?
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 22, 2006, 03:56:51 PM
No, David.  I thought it might be English when I saw it.

It is very high quality glass.

I'll give a hint.  It is North American circa 1930s.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 22, 2006, 04:32:41 PM
In which case, I seem to recall seeing something similar by Steuben.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 22, 2006, 04:46:13 PM
Ding, ding, ding!!  You win the prize, David  :lol:

It has the fleu-de-lis and Steuben in a banner acid etch mark.

I only saw the mark after I had it home and was photographing it.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 22, 2006, 05:15:14 PM
Fleur de lys for Steuben, interesting. Does it ever appear without the name?
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 22, 2006, 05:33:05 PM
I don't think so, Frank.  The banner and word Steuben go through the middle of the fleur-de-lis.

Maybe Ivo can provide more info.  The mark on my piece is that on page 137 in Ivo's book without F. Carder underneath.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 22, 2006, 08:23:51 PM
On page 494 of 'Glasmarken Lexicon 1600-1945' there are two examples of a 1903-32 mark for Steuben, which both feature a fleu-de-lis with a ribbon running through it.

One version has Steuben written across the ribbon, the other does not. Interestingly the version with the word Steuben also has the words 'HAND WROUGHT' written underneath the fleu-de-lis and ribbon.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 23, 2006, 01:40:06 AM
Quote from: grayhorse
I thought it might be English when I saw it.

That makes a lot of sense, as I thought S &W might be the maker, but thought that was too obvious. Since Carder may have been responsible for the design that would make a lot of sense though.

I hadn't really aprreciated Carder's contribution to glass design, but recent findings (including GSM contributions) have switched me on to this designer. From what I have seen, his contributions are as relevant as those of Keith Murray and certainly equivalent to Dresser when it comes to the prolification of modern design/art.

This reminds me of the recent (and brilliant) thread on UK studio glass. Let's just say that the heritage of UK Studio Glass goes back further than most would realise i.e. pre Layton, Harris or Herman (see http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6207.0.html.) Why didn't anyone mention Monart, Vasart or Ysart. A recent ATG booklet showed several examples of Scottish Art Glass that looked very much like Studio Glass and was very similar to pieces produced by Mdina.

Am I wrong?
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 23, 2006, 09:04:24 AM
David can you send me a scan of that ATG article please. Monart and Vasart do not qualify as Studio Art Glass, it is factory glass. However, if you check the chronology Paul Ysart is included as he set up his own Studio with no more than one or two assistants at a time.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 23, 2006, 10:45:58 AM
Frank, the article in question is in the ATG summer guide booklet and not particularly easy to scan. I do however have two copies, so if you want me to post you a duplicate copy PM with your address.

I understand what you are saying about Monart and Vasart, but these were very small factories. At what point does a studio become a factory, it’s an interesting dilemma? I'm sure that there are studio artists working in facilities that are large, and employ more people than Monart ever did, yet they will no doubt still be regarded as studio practitioners.

The point I was really making is that regardless of whether Monart or Vasart were factory makers, the work produced by them was aesthetically studio glass. I visit many design/art shows each year and there are many studio practitioners who produce work that looks like Monart or Mdina (or strongly influenced by them), so although Monart may be considered to be a factory maker, their influence on studio glass is particularly relevant.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 23, 2006, 11:21:26 AM
David can you repost that question in the Studio Glass thread as it is an important question for that topic.

Will mail address thank you.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 23, 2006, 11:22:23 AM
:? :? :?

I suppose Monart and Mdina are both made of coloured glass. They have at least this in common! Oh, and they're both hot-worked.
I see no other real similarities!

Aren't different points of view interesting!
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 23, 2006, 12:04:44 PM
There are some examples of Monart that are very similar to Mdina. They are admittedly rare, but they do exist none the less.

As Frank has suggested I will re-post my query in the Studio Glass thread, where this subject would be more appropriately discussed.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 23, 2006, 03:22:28 PM
:D :D :D

I think we will have to agree to disagree, David.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 23, 2006, 03:29:25 PM
Agreed.

I can certainly understand how it's possible for one person to see certain attributes in Monart, which others cannot.

It's simply a matter of personal opinion.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 23, 2006, 05:17:16 PM
Since that has been settled I would like to add that the similarities referred to might show in a smallish photograph but not in the flesh - I know the type of pieces David refers to and they are very different from Mdina in the flesh.

The basic techniques used are inevitably similar but the execution of thos techniques is quite different.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 24, 2006, 07:51:00 AM
:D :shock: :D

Are there any examples of these on your site, Frank? I'd love to know which ones they are.  :?
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 27, 2006, 05:40:41 PM
David thank you for the ATG booklet. But, Oh dear, it has quite a few errors and also has a wrongly attributed piece on - Page 33 Blue/yellow stripey.

See http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/NotYsart.htm 3rd row.

If that was at a Lyon & Turnbull sale, they were told. But at frequently happens at that sale room they ignore identifications. They have sold many fakes as genuine.

Who is Roland Arkell?
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Della on July 27, 2006, 05:54:06 PM
Frank,
You have a full stop at the end of the url so it isn't working.  :wink:
You can delete this after you have altered the link.  :lol:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 27, 2006, 06:26:54 PM
:oops:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Glasshound on July 27, 2006, 07:40:10 PM
Steuben???? No way... the signature has to be a fake...

They never made anything even remotely close to this...

just my two and a half cents..  8)

/Blair
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 27, 2006, 08:57:18 PM
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/hawkesnest/item/ST-GrTh?froogle=1

http://www.eldreds.com/sales/detail.php?itemID=100728

Lot 2187

http://www.dargate.com/248_auction/248_images/248glass.htm

It is a commonly signed pattern - all with the 1930s fleur-de-lis mark

Edited to add:  

There is a very nice Steuben Bristol Yellow with Black threading 3 piece perfume set pictured in The Collector's Encyclopedia of American Art Glass by John Shuman III. It says that it is marked with the fleur-de-lis mark also.

I guess all the pieces are fake with fake marks

   :roll:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Glasshound on July 27, 2006, 09:11:38 PM
The threading on your bowl is scattered all over it...on pieces of "real" Steuben the threading is fairly uniform and concentrated along the top.

Your bowl is definitely NOT Steuben and most likely Bohemian / Czech.  :roll:

/Blair
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Della on July 27, 2006, 09:33:05 PM
Hi Connie,

I cannot comment on the piece in question as I really don't have a clue and would not claim to know.

I have done a bit of googling and came across this page:

http://brokenshards.homestead.com/Signatures.html

I stress, that I am not making any judgements as this is way beyond my knowledge, but it does seem that there are a few fake Steuben marks about.
If this page has been posted before, please ignore it and me too.  :)  :wink:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 27, 2006, 09:44:15 PM
Thank you, Della.

My stamp looks like the one at the top that is the authentic stamp.

I guess I will send pictures to the CMOG and let them make the determination.  Or I could bring it since I am less than 100 miles from them  :wink:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Glasshound on July 27, 2006, 09:46:38 PM
I'm willing to bet $$$ that it's NOT Steuben  :D

/Blair
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 27, 2006, 10:53:02 PM
Quote from: "Glasshound"
I'm willing to bet $$$ that it's NOT Steuben  :D

/Blair


To start with I would like to say that I'm not an expert (not even remotely, so this is just my opinion) on Steuben.

Secondly, the mark as described (and illustrated in a previous message) does indeed seem to be correct. The mark is identical to that illustrated in Glassmarken Lexicon, which is one of the best resources available for glassmakers marks, and I (and my father) have yet to find any mistakes in the publication.

Finally........if the bowl isn't Steuben, it seems remarkable that I managed to guess that the piece was by them, given my limited knowledge. I don't know the factory very well, but I finally guessed the maker after recollecting similar pieces I have seen (although these were amber with black threads 'scattered all over' - as mentioned by grayhorse).

The only doubt I had was the fact that the bowl seemed to have a cut-off rim. This however may be a miss-interpretation of the image. If the rim is cut-off, then an eastern European origin would make sense (including a fake acid mark).
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 27, 2006, 11:03:01 PM
Quote from: "Frank"
David thank you for the ATG booklet. But, Oh dear, it has quite a few errors and also has a wrongly attributed piece on - Page 33 Blue/yellow stripey.

See http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/NotYsart.htm 3rd row.

If that was at a Lyon & Turnbull sale, they were told. But at frequently happens at that sale room they ignore identifications. They have sold many fakes as genuine.

Who is Roland Arkell?


No, problem Frank. Even though the article was somewhat ill-informed, I still thought you might want a copy for your records.

The piece that interested me the most was on page 34, which prompted my comments about Studio Glass. Obviously that resulted in some contentious remarks in the Studio Glass thread, which I really must address when I have the time (I hope I don't upset too many people).

The piece on pg 34 really is fantastic though......WOW! :D

As for Arkell, I would suggest that he is probably just another freelance antiques journalist. I’ve spoken with other similar journalists in the field and they never do any real research or check their facts.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 28, 2006, 06:47:38 AM
I heartily concur with the last remark, you wouldn't believe the basic errors in some of the stuff that comes through my hands. There are a lot of cowboy journalists out there
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 28, 2006, 09:15:30 AM
:D :D :D

Frank - I just had a peek at the page you showed here, where there is some IoWSG, because of the confusion that can arise from the pontil marks (flame v. salmon) and I see you have an Aurene vase in a shape you say is unusual - it isn't an unusual shape at all - this is the most common shape for an Aurene piece, as far as  my experience goes. However, the plate  :shock: is very unusual.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: David Hier on July 28, 2006, 09:42:51 AM
Quote from: "Lustrousstone"
I heartily concur with the last remark, you wouldn't believe the basic errors in some of the stuff that comes through my hands. There are a lot of cowboy journalists out there


I know this is off-topic and probably deserves it's own thread (why are antiques journalists so ignorant? :lol: ), but yes, the level of research I have seen is laughable.

Obviously I can't generalise, but I have been telephoned many times by journalists, writing articles for major publications, and they always seem to be looking for an easy angle for any article they write. I have often explained to such journalists that they need to do some research and interview certain people, only to be told that they don't have time for that (shakes head vigorously).

The other thing that happens, is that I get calls from magazines telling me that they are doing an article on glass and ask whether or not I would like to advertise with them. I ask what type of article and the response (for the last 10 years) is normally 'Bristol Blue' or 'Cranberry'. No disrespect to collectors of this glass, but I've heard enough about it; can't we read about something else?
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 28, 2006, 10:38:41 AM
Hi Sue,

Info came from IOW themselves and it says "Non standard shape", not unusual.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 28, 2006, 11:13:30 AM
:D :D :D

Hi Frank - looking at the 4 of these I have, the shape of each varies slightly - so I suppose this could mean there are no absolute dimensions - some are taller, some are rounder, some have the blue at the bottom, some have it at the top.

edited to add: Some also have stoppers, with brown/cream swirls in the knob.

Do you think they could have meant that the shape, though standard, was not standardised?
Your quote from IoWSG does say "not unusual" though. :twisted:
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Frank on July 28, 2006, 01:46:01 PM
Oops, edited, should have quoted in full:

(http://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/Images/IOWvase1.jpg)
Isle of Wight Glass with seal. Non standard shape in colouring from the Aurene Range produced between 1973 and 1981.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 31, 2006, 01:09:01 PM
The mark on my green and crystal bowl is identical to the mark on the pieces posted by Lenore in this link

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6557.0.html

It is in the same position also very close to the edge.

I have not had an opportunity to take more photos and a better picture of the mark on mine yet.
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Glasshound on July 31, 2006, 02:53:15 PM
Connie,

   Here's John Shuman III's email address (jazzyjhn@aol.com). Send him a pic of your bowl and ask him if it's Steuben...

/Blair
Title: My Recent Find - Guess What it is!
Post by: Connie on July 31, 2006, 10:03:43 PM
Thank you, Blair. I will try that.