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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Nadine on August 05, 2005, 08:49:45 AM

Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 05, 2005, 08:49:45 AM
Hello,
it´s me again :D

I´ve bought a new Paperweight from an antique dealer here in Germany and don´t know wich maker did made it.
In all my books I´ve studied I did´nt find a Solution. I think it will be a early Bohemian piece (probably Josephinen Glassworks) but a friend of mine thinks it would be an early St.Louis Piece or a so called "early Clichy".

What is the Opinion of the experts here ?

Here are the pictures:

http://web888.can13.de/webbrowser/conmille/index.html

Thanks in Advance for your help and have a nice weekend  :D

Many greetings
Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 05, 2005, 09:09:53 AM
P.S. Sorry for the poor photos, it was a rainy day, when I took them and I had no good light for better ones.

The Glass of the Paperweight is clear without any grey or yellow shadows in it.

The base has a  big basal rim and in the middle she is more then only concave, she´s  round like a ball you cut in the middle. Hope you know, what I mean :D

The Paperweight measures 6,5cm in dia. and it is 3,5cm high. The weight is 282gr. Probably that helps.

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 05, 2005, 10:33:16 AM
Nadine, this paperweight has been driving me mad!   :x  :?  :roll: But most enjoyably  :wink:

Initially I would have said it had a Clichy type profile, but not Clichy type colours! I was beginning to think it might indeed be more like St Louis colours, then you posted the details of the light affecting the glass colour, the size (quite a miniature) and the fact that the base is quite deeply concave and I wracked my brains again   :?  

I looked through all my books, too, and I think the only thing to do is wait for the experts to come along and see this thread!    :shock:

Personally, I would be inclined to say Bohemian, possibly Riesengebirge.  However, I am quite prepared to be 'shot down in flames' when Kevin comes along!  :lol:  :roll:

Anyway, it's a really super weight and I envy you!  :D

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 05, 2005, 10:40:44 AM
No, I just 'tweaked' your photos a little and now I'm back to thinking it's a Clichy  :shock:

HELP!   :roll:  :wink:

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2005, 10:46:15 AM
Hi Nadine

The photographs are fine from the viewpoint of the individual canes.
Having looked through various books I think you're quite correct ...it becomes less clear rather than the expected clarification.
Looking at the profile it would, in the context of the French weights, steer more towards Baccarat than Clichy. The reference book I used shows Baccarat as having the sqattest profile of the the 3 main French makers of the period..... and the curve as it bends towards the base is more pronounced. They also seem to be the only ones I could find that produced canes of the variety iin photo 6 that are an orange star with a central blue star cane. The Clichy canes that I have access to appear more complex in their structure...although this may have changed when Baccarat we re-introduced in the 20th century....... I am comparing these considering that yours is a 19th C example......however the number of examples I can compare with is very limited and so far this is nothing more than a direction I have been led into and in iteslf inconclusive.
The few Bohemian ones I looked at didnt quite seem to match the cane strutures at all....just didn't feel right.
Someone should be along soon to give you a definitive attribution and blow my observations out of the water..... and then we''ll both know...and why.

Regards

Gareth


Morgan48
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2005, 11:00:14 AM
Thanks for your fast answers, Leni & Gareth

On Bob Hall´s Homepage are some weights from the Josephinen Glassworks, in which some canes are look similar to the ones in this weight.  But this kind of Base I never see before on Bohemian Paperweights. Also one other of my Bohemian weights has more a little yellow shadow in it.
In the Book from George N.  Kulles (Identifying Antique Glass Paperweights, The Less Familiar) in the chapter about the Questionable Early Clichy, there are also some canes wich looks a little bit like the ones in this piece.

Last, I have an early St. Louis weight, which canes a nearly the same, like the green ones in the outer ring of my new Paperweight. Probably they where made from Domenico Bussolin, who sold his canes to french and bohemian Companys, like Sybille Jargstdorf told in her book.
But, like Gareth told, the canes with the bundle of Stars look similar to the ones, wich Baccarat used in there early weights.  


Here are some better photos, which I took today. You can see now better which color the glass had, altough, when the light cames from the side there is a light grey shadow in it.

http://web888.can13.de/webbrowser/weight2/index.html

Looking forward to hear the Opinion from other experts :-)

Many greetings from Germany

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 05, 2005, 12:00:46 PM
Hi again Nadine,

I have also been reading my Jargstorf  :lol: although I haven't got the Kulles  :(

Don't forget that Jargstorf also says a lot of people copied Bussolin canes, as well as using some he may have sold or given them.  Also, I would have said the canes in your weight are more simple, being of fairly basic complexity and made up almost entirely of six-point star canes, with only the green outer ones (and possibly the dark blue ones? I can't quite see) being set in pastry-mould shapes.  Am I right?

Gareth, your post made me go back and look at Baccarat again, and I can see what you mean!  I'm now totally confused!  :shock:

Nadine, can you post a picture of the weight in profile, so we can see the exact position of the motif in the dome?  And are you able to tell if the dome has been ground down to remove scratches or bruises in the past, and if so, are you able to tell roughly by how much?  

Also, something about the almost browny-red colour is ringing bells with me, but I'm not sure exactly what it means yet ....  :?

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2005, 12:23:14 PM
Hi Nadine

Nothing to get you going better than a "whodunnit"..... not only that but its raining buckets outside. :roll:  :wink:
I have isolated one of the canes which seems quite distinctive and I'll see if I can locate it anywhere else. The problem with looking at all of them is that my myopic brain becomes more scrambled than the weight.
Hopefully will be back later
http://tinypic.com/a12681.jpg

regards


gareth


Morgan48
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 05, 2005, 12:28:04 PM
Thanks again, Leni,

here are some new photos:

http://web888.can13.de/webbrowser/weight3/index.html

In my oppionin the weight is not repolished yet, as there is some heavy wear on the base and also many scratches on the surface.

I think the canes with the blue stars and the green ones  aren´t made in Pastry-Mold Shapes, but the Canes in the second ring (counting from the center-cane) are definitely Pastry-Mold Shapes, with red, opaque Glass on it.

A friend of mine, who visited me 10 minutes ago, mentioned to see the green canes in some scrambled weights from clichy, but I don´t know if he is right.

Like you, I´m also totally confused. :?

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 05, 2005, 12:30:09 PM
Thank you also Gareth,

your picture is perfect to see all the details on the canes, hopefully you or some from the others will know or find this canes in another paperweight and can help us :D

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2005, 01:31:10 PM
Hi Nadine

A couple of extra things I have come across which may be relevant but most probably not.
I was looking at some 1930's Baccarat Dupont weights and noticed how much simpler and in some ways of lesser quality than the mid 19thc and much later 20thc ones.
Also I hadn't realised until today the very short period in which the areas of Bohemia and Silesia made paperweights similar to the first French examples... sometime between 1840 and 1855. It was pointed out that these had a distinctive grey tone to the glass whereas the French tended to be either bright white or blue/white. Also the Bohemian/Silesian ones were apparently much lighter although the same size as the French.
You said you had an early French one so perhaps you can weigh them and see how they compare.
After all of this it will probably turn out o be none of these.... which is why it really is a subject for an expert with many examples to be able to compare.

Anyway Nadine...many thanks for posting this thread as it turned out to be most fascinating and already I've learnt something else.


Regards


Gareth


Morgan
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 05, 2005, 02:07:39 PM
Hi Gareth,

here are some pictures  of an early bohemian weight, I´ve sold on ebay some weeks ago:

http://web888.can13.de/webbrowser/bohemian/index.html

It has Canes from Domenico Bussolin, which where used by Riedel located in Polaun and also by St. Louis.
As you can see, the grey tone is much deeper and not only a light grey like in my new one, and it seems there is also a little yellow shadow (probably thats from the torsade on the ground). Also the Canes are not so fine, not so complex and also not arranged with such a precision like on the other one. And there are much more air bubbles in it. The new one has nearly no kind of bubbles in it. The Base on the other one was absolutely flat.

I have compared the weights of this two paperweights, and the new one weights much more. The early Baccarat had a higher dome and weights a little bit more.

So, from this point to see, it could be a  more a French one then a Bohemian.

Please excuse my bad englich, I´m still learning :D

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Anonymous on August 05, 2005, 03:13:01 PM
Hi Nadine

The new photograph is much more what I thought Bohemaian weights were like... and exactly as you say with not much quality either in the canes, with some distorted, and just the overall design. The torsade gives the illusion that there is more happening than there really is.... Also unless its only on the photograph the surface of this one looks really quite rippled... and not something you would expect of a weight that had a good polished finish to it.
The interesting point was you mentioned the base being flat...whereas the other one is concave.... this is probably quite important regarding the identity of it but I have no references at all to the different finishes of the bases. So, as you say,. it looks like we are back across the border into France.
Your English is fine... and certainly better than too many "English" people here.


Regards


Gareth


Morgan48
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 05, 2005, 09:32:44 PM
Hi Gareth,

in the book „Classic French Paperweights” from Edith Mannoni I found a interesting Detail, which probably brings us closer to the maker of my new weight.
On Page 3 is a photo of an antique St. Louis Jelly Dish, which has a small paperweight as its base. In the outer ring it has canes, who look similar to the red-star canes with the blue star in it, you can see on my paperweight, also in the outer ring. But as my canes have 7 red stars, this one has 10. But they really look very equal. I send a photo of this one tomorrow, so you can see for yourself, what I mean.

The funny thing is, that I have a weight in my mind, which I see some months ago, which reminds me very much on my one, but I don´t know what kind it is. Everytime I look on the paperweight, my mind would tell me what it is, but my mouth wouldn´t tell it … It´s hard to explain, hope you understand it. It´s like the feeling, that Leni had, some posts above (ringing bells)

At the moment I think it will be an early clichy weight or a St. Louis Piece, but I don´t know which of this manufacturs used to make such a concav base on its weights, altough it probably could be a prototype or experimental weight.

I´m still searching for a thing, that will be a proof for one maker, so that we all can be sure, who had made this beatiful piece.

Perhaps I´ll get some more informations when I look at other books from my friend, tomorrow. I´ll let you know :D

At least thanks for your compliment, regarding my english. I know, its not the best. I always know, what I want to say and also I understand english very well and can read it very fast, but the main problem I have is the different grammar, as the german Language is very difficult, when you try to put english sentences in the right way together.

Have a nice weekend, I´ll post more regarding the weight, tomorrow. Hopefully some of the other experts also have an opinion, which kind of weight is it.

Kind regards
Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 06, 2005, 07:54:47 AM
Nadine, please note that many of our experts will be in Scotland this weekend for the Ysart Glass Conference, so don't expect them to see this thread until the beginning of next week!  

I am still thinking about your paperweight a lot, and searching the books I have again and again - I wish my George Kulles book would arive!  I ordered it ages ago, but it is still on its way from America!  You say you have the Kulles 'Less Familiar' book.  Do you have the 'Millefiori' book?  That's the one I'm waiting for!   :x

I am still puzzled about the position of the motif in your weight  :?  It looks a bit like a Clichy profile, but the dome is too low and the motif seems too high in it.  Are you sure it hasn't been ground down in the past?  I have a little St Mande which has a similar profile, but the motif is not so high in the dome.  Can you get a picture that is really totally side-on?  

I am also still thinking about that red colour!  It really looks quite orangey.  I just can't think where I've seen it before!   :x  And could you post a picture of your St Louis with the canes you think are similar to the green ones?  

I'm enjoying this immensely!  I shall be quite disappointed if Kevin comes along and says, "Oh, it's clearly a ....." and stops all the fun  :wink:  :lol:

Oh, and as Gareth has said, your English really is superb!   :shock:  :D

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 06, 2005, 04:00:29 PM
Hi Leni,

thanks for your Message,

here are some new photos:

http://web888.can13.de/webbrowser/weight4/index.html

#1+2 Profile, hope this ones are a little bit better
#3 The Base with the big basal Rim and the conkave middle
#4 The Paperweight together with an St. Louis Jasper to see, that the green canes are similar to the ones in the first ring of the St. Louis
#5 The Paperweight together with an Clichy Scramble to compare the green tone of the canes, wich is nearly the same.
#6+7 Pictures from the St. Louis Jelly Dish, I posted yesterday to see, that the star canes nearly identical. (Sorry for the poor Photos, it´s a high glossy picture and my cam couldn´t get it sharper)

If I find more interessting matches, I will post them also.


I can not total be sure, that the weight is not repolished yet, as it is about 150 years old and I have it since 4 days, but I thougt with this scratches on the surface and the wear to the base it isn´t repolished yet, but I don’t know it. Probably it was also the base of an Dish or Inkwell, I don´t think that, but perhaps somebody has seen an item, which looks also similar or has identical canes in it, like the other St. Louis Jelly Dish.

Yes, I have the Millefiori Book from Kulles also and the Lampwork, too. But unfortunately it helps me not with this weight.

Have a nice Saturday evening.

Many greetings
Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Anonymous on August 06, 2005, 06:06:34 PM
I had another thought .....  :shock:

Could it possibly be a New England Glass Company weight?   :?

I don't know much (and can't seem to find anything out  :x ) about their millefiori canes, but I believe they did have very deep concave bases and wide basal rings!  Also, I believe they were sometimes mistaken for 'Bohemian' weights  :shock:

I've looked everywhere I can think and come up with a blank.  

Can you find any info on NEGC canes?    

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 06, 2005, 06:07:47 PM
Ooops!  That was me, logged out  :oops:

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 06, 2005, 07:22:56 PM
Yes, I have some Pictures of NEGC-Canes, here a some pics of 3 NEGC-Scrambled weights from my collection:

http://web888.can13.de/webbrowser/negc/index.html

I did compare them also, but they completely different. Also the Base aren´t concave, its simply firepolished and you still can see the pontil-mark on all 3 weights.
But the Idea was good, Leni, probably it will be a maker we all know, and didn´t know it :D

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 07, 2005, 07:23:08 AM
WOW!  What a collection you must have, Nadine!   I'm very envious!  :shock:

However, I'm a bit concerned about the size of your pictures.  They don't give me a problem, but I know some people who use these boards complain if pictures are too big, as their computers can't cope   :?

Personally, I think you need to see big pics when we're talking about paperweight canes, but I wonder if you should try to reduce the size so as not to cause other users problems trying to look at them   :(

Re your original weight:  The colour is still trying to tell me something - and I think one thing it is trying to tell me is, definitely NOT Clichy!  

Never mind, I am sure next week Kevin or Ray will be back and will 'put us out of our misery'  :roll:   Only it hasn't been misery, has it?  It's been FUN!  :D  

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: KevinH on August 09, 2005, 12:52:18 PM
Hi Nadine,

Leni suggested that I might drop by and say, "It's obviously a <whatever>". Thanks for the confidence vote, Leni, but I'm just as unsure as everyone else. I have emailed somebody who may know. More news soon perhaps.

In the meantime, I agree that the base is unusual and this makes the Id process a bit more difficult because if it were one of the "big three" French (Clichy, St Louis or Baccarat), we'd expect regular base features. I also agree that the weight is in its original shape because the wear to the surface is consistent with many, many years of handling.

If it had been repolished at some time, this would not normally have affected the base as the underside would not be cleaned up, unless there was severe damge to the lowest edge. But this does not seem to fit with the shape of the remaining well-polished central area.

Just for the record, my original thoughts were:
1) Bohemian
2) Well, maybe St Louis
3) I wonder if the white and blue canes could be St Mande
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 09, 2005, 05:15:24 PM
Quote from: "KevH"
Just for the record, my original thoughts were:
1) Bohemian
2) Well, maybe St Louis
3) I wonder if the white and blue canes could be St Mande

 :shock:  :shock:  :shock: I'm so proud!  :shock:  :oops:  :roll:  

I don't care *what* it turns out to be now! (Not true, I do care really  :wink: )  I am just so pleased with myself because my thoughts were the same as the great 'KevH'  :shock:  :oops: :roll:  :lol:  

Seriously, I do wonder *very much* about the possibility of St Mande, now Kevin has mentioned it  :?

I just haven't seen enough examples, and the colours are still confusing me, but there is *something* similar to my little weight which Sibylle Jargstorf (and several PCC members) identified as St Mande.  It's something about the quality of glass  :?  And, apart from the strange base, the profile looks similar - as is the position of the motif, if it definitely hasn't been re-ground!  If I could just hold it .....   :shock:

Hopefully we'll have an answer soon - or at least, someone else's views!  :lol:  :roll:    

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 09, 2005, 10:04:47 PM
Sorry for getting back so late, but my 2 childs got high temperature the last 2 days…


Hi KevH,
Thanks for your answer and also many thanks for your affords to email someone who might know more of my new paperweight.


Leni,
Thanks for your post, too. I didn´t know that it can be a problem for some users, when I send big pictures, I´ll try to post smaller images in the future.

Hmm, St. Mande ? Probably KevH will be right.
My Friend Ronny was at the PCC-Meeting in Cambridge, when Sibylle Jargstorf was the speaker, and he also took a look at your St. Mande Paperweight. He says, that your one was smaller, but somewhat on my weight also reminds him on your one.

At the Moment it seems it probably will be a early St.Louis or a St. Mande with an unknown Base.  Today I´ve seen two other Bohemian pieces, but they look similar to the one I´ve posted above.

Yes, its really fun to get the maker of this weight.
If Ronny will went to the PCC-Meeting in September, I´ll give him the weight, so you can hold it in your hands :D

Many greetings from the cold and rainy germany.

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 10, 2005, 08:20:02 AM
Quote from: "Nadine"
My Friend Ronny was at the PCC-Meeting in Cambridge, when Sibylle Jargstorf was the speaker, and he also took a look at your St. Mande Paperweight. He says, that your one was smaller, but somewhat on my weight also reminds him on your one.

Aha!  :D  
Quote
If Ronny will went to the PCC-Meeting in September, I´ll give him the weight, so you can hold it in your hands :D

Nadine, that would be fantastic!  Thank you very much!  I do hope Ronny will be able to come to the meeting!  

I think we will all benefit from seeing this weight, as it must help to broaden our knowledge of the rarer examples  :shock:  :D  

BTW, I hope your children are now recovering from their illnesses.

Leni
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: KevinH on August 14, 2005, 10:32:54 PM
Hi everyone,

This weight has not been forgotten. One of the PCC folk who knows a lot  more about antique weights than I do has said it's not St Louis but may be St Mande, although more thought and investigation is needed.

I have asked a few more of the PCC people for their thoughts.
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: KevinH on August 17, 2005, 11:36:22 AM
Hi folks,

Having had a variety of comments so far, from a variety of collectors, there seem to be two definite conclusions - 1. It's not a Clichy weight, 2. Nobody is 100% certain of what this one really is.

Amongst those offering views was Marek Kordasiewicz, author of the book, Sklane Przyciski Do Papieru ... (Glass Paperweights, The Heritage of The 19th Century Riesengebirge and Isegebirge Glassworks).

Marek says that we should not pay too much attention to general shapes and profiles when considering "Bohemian / Silesian" weights. He has seen almost all profiles in these.

Also, he has seen only a few weights like Nadine's (through eBay, sold from India!) but has found none at all in Poland, and therefore thinks they may have been export pieces. However, he does have a "classic period" (19th century) Silesian weight that has a simiar base, with "a very deep concavity". And he comments that some of the canes are similar to ones he excavated in the Carlsthal glassworks area.

Without checking technical details such as Spefic Gravity and UV reaction, a truly positive Id cannot be given, but on balance, Marek's opinion is "Bohemian or Silesian origin".

When I checked Marek's book for cane types, I could not find any exact matches but it was clear that there were many Bohemian / Silesian canes formed with a single cane surrounded by multiple individual canes. It was that style of cane, and the overall layout that made me first think of Bohemian. But without a positive cane match (and preferably more than one), I think it would be useful to look around for other weights like the mystery piece.

If this weight could be seen at the next PCC meeting, I will happily check it under UV.
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Nadine on August 22, 2005, 10:41:34 PM
Thanks Kevin for all of your Informations.

I´ve just spoken with Ronny, he will book his Flight this week and bring  the weight  to the PCC-Meeting in Cambridge (17.09.05).

Thank you very much for your help to identify this little treasure :D

Btw:
Whats the best way from Stansted to Cambridge without a car ?

Many greetings to all!

Nadine
Title: Need Help with this lovely antique Paperweight
Post by: Leni on August 23, 2005, 05:14:42 PM
Quote from: "Nadine"
I´ve just spoken with Ronny, he will book his Flight this week and bring  the weight  to the PCC-Meeting in Cambridge (17.09.05).

That's great, Nadine!  I can't wait to see this weight!  :D

As for Stanstead to Cambridge - I believe there is a train which goes from the airport to Cambridge.

Leni
Title: St. Mande ???
Post by: Nadine on August 25, 2005, 09:34:01 PM
Hello everybody :-D

Ronny´s flight is booked and he will come by car to the meeting.

I was with him today evening and we where looking thrue some new Books (The Dictionary of Paperweight Signature Canes by Andrew H. Dohan & Marek Kordasiewicz´s Book) and some old Newsletters from the PCC.

In the Newsletter No.79 – August 2002 there´s an Article from Philippe Frerre about St. Mande Paperweights.
The First Paperweight of Fig 5, and the middle Paperweight of Fig.7 make me think, that they are very similar to my weight.
Probably some of you also have this Issue from the Newsletter, and tell me if I will be right.

Hope you all have a very nice weekend.

Many greetings

Nadine