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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: sleeplessn2009 on December 26, 2011, 07:54:19 AM

Title: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: sleeplessn2009 on December 26, 2011, 07:54:19 AM
I bought this "Baccarat" paperweight on ebay (need I say more...)  :ho:  There are actually two signatures on the paperweight.  There also aren't any canes with the numbers and the b on it.

Anyway, she said in the description that Baccarat had signed paperweights a long time ago.  I found some signatures, but don't see the same writing.  Can  anyone help me, and when you answer, if you could tell me whether you are an expert or not.  Or, if you could tell me who I could contact to seek help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks so much!!  If it's a fake, I'll learn a very expensive lesson...

Teri    :rah:
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: Wuff on December 26, 2011, 09:49:50 AM
I am sorry to tell you that this is indeed a fake signature - the weight is a real Murano weight. Baccarat weights are signed either by a signature cane (you mention the ones with a B yourself) or with an etched logo - see e.g.
http://www.paperweights.com/baccarat.htm (http://www.paperweights.com/baccarat.htm) with a detail image of this on
http://www.paperweights.com/pw2648sig.jpg (http://www.paperweights.com/pw2648sig.jpg) (beware - these logos are also being faked!)
Baccarat never used such "handwriting".
Am I an expert? I guess on Scottish weights - with some general knowledge on other weights as well - and, yes, there are a few Baccarat and Murano weights on my shelves.
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: tropdevin on December 26, 2011, 10:18:51 AM
***

Wuff is spot on. A crude faked signature on a Murano weight - there are a few of these around, as anyone with a cheap engraving tool can do it. You will see the odd Saint-Louis version too.

What is a little more likely to fool the more experienced collector is a fake acid etched or hot pressed mark for Baccarat or Saint-Louis.  I gave a talk on Fakes which included such signatures (amongst others) at the PCA Convention in Washington earlier this year, and have repeated it in Cologne and in the UK since.

Below are images of a high quality - but fake -etched mark - and the top view of the Chirano paperweight that carries it.  Most of these have turned up in the USA, with the fake mark on the base of Murano or Chinese paperweights.

Alan

(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_Bacc1996-20042FAKE4RowRedRuffleCanes329606.jpg) (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/?action=view&current=Bacc1996-20042FAKE4RowRedRuffleCanes329606.jpg) (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/th_Bacc1996-20042FAKE4RowRedRuffleCanes129606.jpg) (http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/?action=view&current=Bacc1996-20042FAKE4RowRedRuffleCanes129606.jpg)
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on December 26, 2011, 10:38:33 AM
I bought this "Baccarat" paperweight on ebay (need I say more...)  :ho:  There are actually two signatures on the paperweight.  There also aren't any canes with the numbers and the b on it.

Anyway, she said in the description that Baccarat had signed paperweights a long time ago.  I found some signatures, but don't see the same writing.  Can  anyone help me, and when you answer, if you could tell me whether you are an expert or not.  Or, if you could tell me who I could contact to seek help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks so much!!  If it's a fake, I'll learn a very expensive lesson...

Teri    :rah:

Teri, more importantly, you said you brought it on ebay.  You should be able to return it for a refund if you paid by Paypal.  Just message the seller that it is indeed a fake, and say you wan tto return it.  If they don't reply, then you need to do a "significantly not as described" via Paypal.  Post the weight back making sure you send it recorded delivery (it must be able to be tracked online) and when it is signed for when it gets back to them you can then submit that it has been signed for on the SNAD, and paypal will refund you even if the seller ignores the SNAD.  If they are a reasonable seller, they should of course refund you immediately anyway and let you return it.....

These fakes are well known and documented, so shouldn't be a problem. 

Hope you did indeed pay by paypal!

Ian
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on December 26, 2011, 10:47:05 AM
Hi again.

Having found the listing:  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Baccarat-Multi-Faceted-Concentric-Millefiori-Signed-Paperweight-3-Days-/260901419731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbeefbad3

I see they sort of question if it is a baccarat in the listing.  The rule in the UK for this would be covered under what we call distance selling regulations.  They are obviously a business seller with 3014+ feedback, and because they are a business you can return anything for any reason brought basically online as you see fit.

As they are what appears to be a professional I would hope they will take a return without having to resort to a SNAD or similar though, you should definately ask.....

Ian
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: Wuff on December 26, 2011, 10:50:06 AM
Well - the seller described it very "carefully" - which makes me suspicious - see
http://cgi.ebay.ch/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260901419731
There it says "Baccarat?" and "Please make your decision on bidding on this weight based on the knowledge that you have on weights" >:D.

Seller goes on "Signature: Engraved "BACCARAT" on base as shown. Please note that Baccarat did use a signature like this during the teens." - which I would consider simply wrong!

His reference is "Glass Signatures, Trademarks and Trade Names written by Anne Geffken Pullin on Pg 53" - does anyone have access to this book and could check?
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: tropdevin on December 26, 2011, 11:30:00 AM
***

I don't know the book, Wuff, but it seems to be written in 1986. However, the content will only be as good as the research - and it is easy to find information that may not be quite what it seems.  If you search for Baccarat Crystal, for example, you can find the legitimate company website (baccarat.com).  But you will also find 'baccaratcrystalglass.com' - an apparently authentic, informative, and official looking website. It may all be good information (I have not checked), but the website is actually registered to a Portuguese gentleman in a shopping centre in Portugal...

Alan
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: scavo on December 26, 2011, 02:44:33 PM
Was it sold for a fixed price or at auction? I believe the rules about distance selling and refunds are different for fixed price and at auction are 'Let the buyer beware' (caveat emptor). I believe this applies on ebay for auctioned goods.

I believe that if it was sold at auction you can return it and ask for a refund for any reason. If it was sold at auction you entered a legal contract to buy when you placed the bid. YOu also agreed that you understood the description.

I've looked at the item I think the seller was careful with his wording not to claim that the item was Baccarat, merely bore the signature.

However, if you could prove that the item was indeed a fake, then you would be able to get a refund as ebay do not allow fakes to be 'knowingly' sold.

The seller does ask buyers to satisfy themselves and gives a reference for this kind of signature. Here the seller could be seen as demonstrating his own sale in good faith.

I'm sure a lawyer could argue the toss either way. But is it worth it for $185?
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on December 26, 2011, 07:02:35 PM
Its an ebay auction, sold for best offer, but SNAD should apply as it's very obviously not a baccarat weight.  I would try asking the seller nicely first though.....
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: Sach on December 27, 2011, 05:18:46 PM

His reference is "Glass Signatures, Trademarks and Trade Names written by Anne Geffken Pullin on Pg 53" - does anyone have access to this book and could check?

Amazon has 42 copies on sale for prices between $0.35 and $39.99 US.
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: KevinH on December 27, 2011, 11:25:38 PM
The Geffken Pullen book covers Baccarat marks from the end of page 52 to the end of page 53. The ONLY case of the Baccarat wording without additional "logo" details is the final entry, which is accompanied by a date (1915) as an example of a signature "engraved on cameo ware" - Note the cameo ware part.

As has been stated by others, I agree that the signature on the Murano weight is false.

My own expertise is mainly with Ysart paperweights, but over the past 17 years of collecting weights I have studied lots of books and discussed various fake signatures with many other collectors.
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: scavo on December 28, 2011, 12:51:41 PM
I am convinced that this is a fake Baccarat, and that is the question raised by Teri.

But I am interested to know the outcome of any request for a refund. The seller did leave the authenticity up to the buyer to decide.

If it were a fixed price BIN sale then I think there would be no dispute about getting a refund. But if you made an offer, surely the offer reflected a level of doubt about the authenticity. Does the offer act like an auction bid?

It would be good to know for my own selling of items that are not 100% in attribution and also as buyer who may himself buy a fake in the future.

Teri, are you going to ask for a refund?
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: tropdevin on December 28, 2011, 01:04:12 PM
***

I think the refund issue may be quite complicated, because it appears that the buyer and seller may be in different countries not both within the EEA (the seller is in the USA).  As I understand it the The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 (which are relevant to BIN sales within the EEA) would not apply to this sale even if it had been BIN.

Alan
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: mildawg on December 28, 2011, 04:33:11 PM
I wouldn't think ebay would refund.  They are not in the business of allowing someone to buy something, then try to confirm its identity and return once it was not confirmed, unless some correspondence occurred that the 2 parties agreed to this.  I believe they would say this needed to be completed prior to purchase or else pass.  Exception would be if it could clearly not be determined by the pics presented in the listing or the buyer blatantly misrepresented the item.. I don't believe this is the case here, as many have noted above.  This one will have to be chalked up to a learning experience, me thinks!
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: pooleandpaperweights on December 28, 2011, 05:08:18 PM
I'll say it again.  It is a significantly not as described (SNAD) via Paypal.  Paypal are incredibly buyer sided and would almost certainly refund once it can be proven it has been posted to and received by the seller.  It is nothing to do with ebay.

The worse one which paypal do is refund a buyer if an item isn't posted by a trackable online method of posting.  I've had people request untracked postage and then claim through paypal when they say they don't revieve it.  Under paypals T&C's they refund the buyer without recourse if something is sent untracked.  Don't ever send anything untracked unless you know the buyer well!

Teri, I would ask for a refund first, the seller can only say no.  They do have over 3000+ feedback with 100% so will almost certainly want to protect it.  As ebay do not allow sellers to leave negative feedback, there is no possible way you can possibly have anything done which impacts you.

I really think it's obvious the seller knew it isn't a baccarat weight, people don't list things with ?'s unless they think it isn't right.  Any seller worth anything will and should refund you on return without having to involve paypal etc.....

Let us know what you decide to do and how you get on!

Ian
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: mildawg on December 28, 2011, 08:24:59 PM
I look forward to the outcome.  Ebay, paypal whoever, I don't think the description weighs in favor of either on doing anything about it, but hope I am wrong.  I fortunately have not been stuck in this situation.  The buyer, if they are upstanding person, will do something.  The description is written ambiguously but certainly gives fair warning that you may not be buying an authentic piece.

Please do keep us apprised of the outcome.
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: scavo on December 28, 2011, 08:36:55 PM
I am again interested in the outcome of a refund request. I don't see how it is a SNAD when the the seller says it has the word ... not it IS.

Ebay are firmly against people selling fakes of any kind. I think the buyer could get a refund if they could demonstrate that it was a fake ... however, this is policy is policed by the copyright holders.
Title: Re: Baccarat fake signed paperweight?
Post by: sleeplessn2009 on December 30, 2011, 01:44:07 AM
Whew!!  Thanks everyone for their help!!  I've had quite a busy week, and I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner.  I didn't think anyone would be on because of the holidays... 

Ok, update.  I've contacted Paypal.  The first lady said (after seeing the listing) that 'they did put a question mark after Baccarat.' I told her that my sister tried to list an AUTHENTIC belt and purse bought at the Gucci store in Rome, but was asked for a receipt. She didn't have it, and they took the listing down.  The listing started at $50!!  So, they let THIS seller list something like that with all the question marks, etc... w/o doing the same thing?  I told the first lady that if that's all I need to do is put question marks, and vague wording in the description, then I'm going to the flea market and getting a ton of Coach bags and add the "?" after Coach...(I said this sarcastically, as I know this is a felony.)  Then I was transferred to a supervisor after my smart a$$ remark...LOL!! 

The supervisor came on and said the same thing, so I asked her for her name and repeated her words as I was writing them down and said I was going to order some Chanel purses for $50 from China and use the same wording 'she said' was sufficient for the listing...  She backed up.  I told her that distribution of counterfeit items applies, also, to ebay and if they  don't get my money back then they will all fall under the RICO act for aiding and abetting crimials.  I said there is enough counterfeit selling going on ebay to start a claim, and if that's what they want, then 'bring it'...   Boy have I learned a lot during the last few days...

I said the fact that it #1. Was a 3 day listing (usually used for counterfeit items because they usually get the listing pulled before 7 days)  #2.  The fact that the seller even doubted the authenticity of the item, put question marks, etc... and if there is doubt, they shouldn't list it, especially when it is a felony to even try and sell it.  #3. It's a felony for those who sell it, an additional felony for using the postal service, and a felony for whomever has it in their possession, and an additional felony on the part of the buyer if he/she turns around and sends it through the mail back to the seller.  Distribution of a counterfeit item is distribution, even if it's given away. 

The seller wrote me and was like, "So, usually the buyer will get in touch with me to resolve the issues first...Just wondering why you didn't."  I responded, "Well, yes, but I didn't want to go back and forth and get in an argument about it.  You should have never listed it if you had doubts."  Etc...

I'll keep everyone informed, and thanks to everyone for their help!! Especially those with references to what it is and what was in the book.  If I can ever return the favor, please let me know.  (As long as it's not about paperweights...you know I'm clueless...LOL!!!)   

Happy New Year everyone!!