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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Resolved Paperweight Queries => Topic started by: stew2u2 on August 03, 2011, 01:49:24 PM

Title: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
Post by: stew2u2 on August 03, 2011, 01:49:24 PM
Hi
can anyone help with ID of this weight its only 4 cm across slight concave base. not sure how it was made  is there a name for this type of weight.
looks a bit oriental.
thanks
stew
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/th_100_8971.jpg) (http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/?action=view&current=100_8971.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/th_100_8970.jpg) (http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/?action=view&current=100_8970.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/th_100_8969.jpg) (http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/?action=view&current=100_8969.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/th_100_8968.jpg) (http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r38/stewtoyou/?action=view&current=100_8968.jpg)
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: jamalpa36 on August 03, 2011, 02:05:58 PM
Hi
I thought I would get in first even though I do not own a "Chinese White".

I know that some members have quite a few so they can give the details !!!

Roy :or: :or: :or:
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: stew2u2 on August 03, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Thanks roy
another one to add to the knowledge learning everyday thanks to this site.
stew
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: SophieB on August 03, 2011, 02:32:44 PM
Hi Stew,

It is indeed a Chinese white. As their name indicate they were made in China for the souvenir/export market.

Although there is some debate at to when they were made, most people date them from the first part of the 20th century (but in all likelihood some were made during the last part of the 19th century and a few after WWII). I personally think that they are great and some are downright gorgeous (yes, you guessed right; I collect them).

They come in three main sizes: miniature (approx. 1 1/2 inches), standard (approx. 2 1/2 inches) and magnum (approx. 4 inches). Both the magum and miniature sizes are less common. You seem you have a miniature.

The designs vary greatly but generally they can be classified into two types: Chinese landscape designs and animals with flowers. You have a design belonging to the second category. The quality of the designs varies also but yours has a good range of colours (if not very crisp).

All in all, a nice little weight. Well done.

SophieB
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: stew2u2 on August 03, 2011, 04:22:27 PM
thanks sophie
not bad find in a 10p box also found an Erik hoglund pin dish / ashtray in the same box.
so the bargains are still out there
thanks
stew
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: stew2u2 on August 03, 2011, 04:57:15 PM
Hi sophie
are they actualy glass like lampwork or discs . i have looked online and some look like paintings inside glass others like mine look like lampwork type pics
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: SophieB on August 03, 2011, 06:03:11 PM
Hi Stew,

When making a traditional 'Chinese white', a white glass disc is first painted upon and then the disc/plaque is encased in molten clear glass. There is no lampwork in this type of weight. It borrows from the Chinese tradition of painting on porcelain.

More recently, weights have appeared were the base of a clear weight is painted directly upon, thereby doing away with the need to encase the glass disc.

I hope it helps.

Sophie        
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: tropdevin on August 03, 2011, 06:53:12 PM
***

Hi Stew

I have written articles on / given talks on Chinese Whites both in the UK, Europe and the USA. What SophieB says is quite correct.

There is a brief article I wrote a couple of years ago (which you can download for free) on Chinese Whites on my website  Paperweights.co  (http://www.pwts.co.uk/).

Alan
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: SophieB on August 03, 2011, 10:32:42 PM
Oh, I forgot to say, most of my knowledge comes from Alan (I wondered when you were going to post...)

I have been well taught, I have...

Sophie
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: paperweights on August 04, 2011, 03:43:11 AM
Just to add my two cents.  I think the earliest were made in the 1930s as there are a few (rare) examples that have an outer garland millefiori of canes that are the same vintage as the earliest 1930s Chinese weights.  
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: tropdevin on August 04, 2011, 03:27:16 PM
***

Hi Allan

I think that the earliest of the 'typical' flowers / birds / landscape type were made in the 1930s, but I believe that the black and white Clipper ship design is probably earlier - maybe late 1800s. For anyone not familiar with these, there is an image of one of these Clipper weights in the article on my website.

Alan
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: johnphilip on August 04, 2011, 04:26:05 PM
Funny thing is Anne and Hubby who used to be Sweetbrier Gallery  bought several very expensive 19th century paperweights and Ysart weights and ink bottles from Ray A and my goodself to sell on but bought all the Chinese whites i had for their own collection because Anne loved them , they were the first people i know who collected Chinese whites ,so that must say something . jp
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: tropdevin on August 04, 2011, 05:09:57 PM
***

The collector of the Chinese Whites was actually Peter Metcalfe: Anne (oddly) did not really collect paperweights.  She had some nice Moorcroft, and five or six years ago was collecting ceramic tiles.

Peter Metcalfe let me photograph his collection of Chinese Whites shortly after they stopped running Sweetbriar: there were nearly 100, including a few ashtrays. I think he still has them.

My feeling is that, although produced in numbers, they are a genuine Chinese art form, rather than a commissioned copy of work by someone else - and at some point the Chinese collectors will realise that....

Alan
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: johnphilip on August 04, 2011, 05:21:23 PM
Yes Alan i am sure you are right , forgive me i am having mammary problems - no sorry memory problems also the first drink for several months , i think they are so under valued , by the way thanks for the info on my Bohemian weight i had a feeling there was something a little different about it . cheers jp :hiclp:
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: stew2u2 on August 04, 2011, 09:50:10 PM
wow thanks for all the info
gratefully received
stew
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE
Post by: paperweights on August 04, 2011, 11:36:29 PM
My two cents again... I believe the clipper ship was probably copied from a Kane Millville clipper ship.  I'm having trouble believing it is older than the 1930s.
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
Post by: SophieB on August 05, 2011, 09:32:45 AM
Hi Allan,

I have heard of this Millville paperweight but never seen one. I understand that it was a footed weight with a ship upright. Can you tell me whether the boat was done in frit or in lampwork?

Sophie
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
Post by: tropdevin on August 06, 2011, 08:29:30 AM
***

Hi Allan. I don't agree with you on this one. The Chinese tended to make fairly literal - if technically flawed - copies, and the two ships shown on these weights are not very similar. Both are full rigged three mast ships (on the images I have seen - but I do not have one I can post here), but there are big differences in design (as well as Kane using frit, whereas the Chinese painted in oxides on a white plaque):

* The Chinese weights show a vessel drawn from off the port bow, whereas the Kane weights are from the beam (ie sideways on);
* The Chinese weights have two foresails, and then 4 / 4 / 3 main sails, whereas the Kane weights have two foresails, 3 /2 /2 main sails, and main and mizen staysails. Also, there appears to be a 'fore-and-aft' sail on the 3rd mast of the Kane ships ( a 'jigger spanker', I believe !) as well as square sails.
* The Kane ships have pennants on the top of two masts.

I do not think the Chinese copied the Kane ship.  My guess is that they copied a drawing, photograph or painting of a clipper.

Alan
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
Post by: paperweights on August 06, 2011, 11:47:28 PM
Alan, I'm honored to have you disagree.  

My experience with Chinese weights is that nothing was copied accurately.  They took license in all of their designs, although some were better copies than others.  It is my belief that the Chinese had either pictures or actual samples when they made the 1930s weights.  Included were the Millville rose and, I believe, a Kane clipper ship.  I also believe they had at least one "Motto" weight on a white enamel plaque.  They probably never figured out the frit technique, but understood how to paint on enamel.  

Several different designs of the Millville weights were made.  In Jim Doherty's 2008 PCA annual article on the Kane weights he shows several examples of three masted schooners including one (Figure 1) that bears an amazing resemblance to the weight pictured below:
(http://paperweights.com/pw2041tn.jpg)

http://paperweights.com/pw2041sm.jpg (http://paperweights.com/pw2041sm.jpg)

In the same article are two pictures of "Rocked in the Cradle of the Deep" white milk glass weights -- whether Kane made these or not, the similarity of the design to the Chinese enamel weights is striking.  These weights feature a three masted sloop from the starboard side while the Chinese whites are always shown from the port side.  (no pun intended).   
Title: Re: PAPERWEIGHT ID PLEASE - ID = Chinese White mini
Post by: tropdevin on August 07, 2011, 06:04:02 AM
***

Hi Allan

Thanks for the information.  I have found the PCA 2008 article you refer to - very useful and thought provoking.  I see the similarity between the frit ship of Fig. 1 in the article, and the Chinese designs, but I still think that is because one is dealing with very similar vessels.  I note that the weight in Figure 1 is the only one of its kind known, and that the attribution to Michael Kane is tenuous, at best - but let us assume it is a Kane piece. So is it the master copy from which the Chinese worked?  I doubt it: the sail pattern is not the same as the Chinese weights: it is 5 / 5 / 4, with 3 jibs, and there are two pennant flags on the masts.

The 'Rocked in the Cradle of the Deep' weights show the vessel I analysed earlier in this thread (as not the origin of the Chinese weights).

Regarding Michael Kane, I understand he left Ireland in the late 19th C to work at Millville, and I have seen various of his ship weights described as 'circa 1900'. So could he have made frit ships in the late 19th C? If so, then we could both be correct about the origins, and the dates!

Alan