Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on June 03, 2012, 11:27:26 AM
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confused over how to describe this glass having read previous threads on malachite/slag glass etc, but to me it looks like blue with white marbled opaline glass. The last photo should show the marbled effect. Pressed with three seams. Very pretty goats head on the front, diamond shapes on the rest of the vase. Measures 14.4cm tall and 7.4cm wide at the rim. It looks as though it may have had a round sticker on the base - there are remains of old glue under what is visible as a new round sticker which was the code sticker for the dealer stuck over the top. I have seen Portieux Vallerysthal PV stickers in that shape, but I can't find it to match the design.
Any help would be much appreciated. I wondered also how old it might be?
Thanks :)
m
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Malachite can only be green. I would just call it blue marbled or blue slag, though I wonder if it came out marbled rather than was designed to be marbled, as it doesn't look marbled enough.
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thanks :) yes of course it can only be green - I'm an idiot (stressed and distressed and in the midst of arranging a funeral so please forgive loss of coherence - thought I'd intersperse arrangements with a dabble of glass just for some relief)
I've amended the heading.
And I agree about the accidental marbling thought. It doesn't have big enough white streaks in it really
m
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Sorry to hear that and sorry for your loss {{{{}}}} :-*
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thank you
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hello m - my sympathies also in your current circumstances - I hope proceeding all go smoothly, and hope you are feeling a little more on top of things soon. :)
Whilst I wouldn't normally disagree with Lustrousstone ;) - as this lady knows far more about glass than me - I would consider on this occasion that Christine's rationale is wrong, when explaining that by definition malachite glass has to be green. If you read Cottle and Murray, they both discuss the various colours that were available in Malachite wares i.e. green, blue and brown principally - the use of the word malachite being simply to describe the marbling effect produced in the finished product (copying the natural substance) - not using the word green from the mineral.
For collectors the most common colour being the purplish malachite (blackberries and cream), and one of the least common was light brown, and both books shown named examples of the most common colours, in the illustrations. Other colours being black, grey and red.
Although most collectors often describe these variegated marbled coloured pieces as slag glass - I suspect most are probably simply opaque Vitro-Porcelain. Real slag glass was a product which I believe was produced in the earlier days of manufacture, and the floor sweepings, and dross from the coal or iron works was abandoned for a more controlled use of quality materials.
Your goblet is probably C20, and possibly from the States - Sheilagh Murray does show a figurine which she describes as "Marble Slag Glass" that has a two tone colour of white and purplish, and which she considers to be American, 'probably'.
From memory, I don't recall seeing anything in Slack or Lattimore in this type of two tone separated colourway - only the usual variegated/marbled looks. :)
The description of your piece might be......blue and white Vitro-Porcelain glass, American possibly :)
P.S. I've looked through Belknap's 'Milk Glass', but don't see any reference to Goats ;D
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Over here we would not consider this as slag, but I have to say that Sowerby produced Malachite in various colors that we would call slag so I am not at all certain if any of this is carved in stone...Malachite versus Slag as it seems to have varying interpretations depending on what ever source you encounter. For what its worth I went through Chiaurenza & Slater & in the hundreds of listings by "figure" I did not find Goat so not much help. I might suggest emailing s.geiselberger@t-online.de as he has been extremely (to say the least) helpful to me identifying marble/malachite/slag that was european & it might be a candidate for his Quarterly magazine. Ken.
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Hi m, firstly my condolences during this sad time ((m))
just wanted to say I had one (or similar) of these in plain milk glass a few years back.
Had a couple of pagans fighting over it on ebay, they said the goat was Pan and they wanted the chalice for their altar.
Don't remember much else, sorry but mythological creatures rather than goats might turn up something on a google search?
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I would think the goat is actually a satyr - Bacchanalia; wine, women, song and dance. ;D
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yey sue, great minds!
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;D
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Ivo Haanstra defines malachite as green. Slack seems mainly to use malachite in connection with Sowerby and often with a defining colour. The Sowerby catalogues just use malachite. Greener had light and dark malachite, which implies two shades of the same colour: green?
Perhaps it is a term best avoided unless in connection with Sowerby or those companies known to have produced it in green: Loetz, Desna, St Louis (which trademarked it), etc.
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oooh, I'm very glad this has generated such a lively and interesting discussion and thank you so much to you all for taking a look and giving information. I bought it to do precisely that :) I have nothing else like this, I don't collect pressed glass, but I do read others posts and when I found it I didn't recall seeing anything like it before (I probably paid way too much for it as well, but having not bought anything much recently I thought why not).
I'd read quite a few posts on malachite/slag/milk/ marbled opaline (and then vitro porcelain after Paul's post) and just got incredibly confused about what it actually is. It is turquoise, it appears to be a form of translucent opaline glass and it does have fine white swirls and streaks in it. You can actually see a very fine thin clear gap between the white streaks and the blue glass on some swirls, so it sort of looks like they didn't mix the turquoise properly, rather than looking like the marbled glass I've seen advertised as 'slag' glass where the white streaks are more defined and pronounced.
Thank you to all also for taking the time out to go through books and check details for me on maker and substance of glass - I really appreciate that.
Sue and bfg - bfg yours seems to be the same as mine :) I am all over the place at the moment, but I'm pretty much sure it is a goat ;D (and to me it looks like Billy Goat Gruff lol) it is really detailed and well modelled. But I will now do some searches on Pan/satyr and mythological creatures and report back.
Ken thank you for doing that, and I will email the contact you gave and see what might transpire. I'll post back.
Edited to add -
I found this info on malachite/pressed glass colours from the site 'pressed in time'
http://www.pressedintime.com/Colours.htm
and I have looked up Satyr and Pan and it seems to be a characteristic (please do correct me if I'm wrong) that they have 'partly human-like' facial features, whereas the goat on my goblet is definitely animal but with no hint of human ;D
m
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Rocco posted a link on another thread and when I clicked on it a black pressed glass goblet or 'pokal' came up - I will try and do a search in German :)
well I did find this
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9498817
a stein that is completely different, but it does have the diamond molded pattern on it all round but then a bearded goat at the front. I am wondering now if my piece is a pokal and is German.
m
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I know thse beer glasses in clear and frosted and they were made by Saint Louis:-) circa 1870s. Pk has done an extensive study into these - though i cannot remember if milk glass and bleu celeste were in the books. They turn up in Germany quite often - as Saint Louis was under German occupation at the time.
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Thank you Ivo :) :)
whilst the molds are obviously different and the execution of the design on the stein 'appears' to be deeper or more crisp than my milk glass version, comparing the goats, they either come from the same design( or one has been copied) as they are so close in detail.
I will go and see what I can find on St Louis and bleu celeste
Many thanks!
m
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there is another stein here as well (but I'm pretty sure it is a goat not a ram)
http://www.rubylane.com/item/97248-rl1192/Antique-Beer-Stein-Glass-Rams
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If it has a handle it is a stein. The frosted one is certainly by st.louis. if there is no handle it is a bock...
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thanks :) I have also found it useful to search for Fußbecher in respect of mine which is not a Stein. BTW when I search for pokal, the same type of thing comes up as Fußbecher - is there a difference in meaning between the two? I know Fußbecher means footed beaker or goblet I presume, but does 'pokal' mean the same or is that always supposed to be a covered goblet?
m
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A Pokal does not have to be covered, i think in general it is larger than a Fussbecher - but it is open to interpretation.
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Well I learned something....“bock” is actually the German word for “billy goat” so it makes sense. Ken.
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BINGO!! thank you Ivo and Ken for your leads to the Pressglas Korrespondenz.
I searched most of them then changed a search to one in German and look....
I'd seen another goblet different design id'd as a copy of an antique St Louis or Baccarat by IVIMA Marinha Grande Portugal and somehow managed to come up with this.
http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2011-2w-schulschenk-ivima-fussbecher.pdf
(I have emailed PK actually before I managed to find this myself)
so now I need some help please. Is mine a repro out of IVIMA? I think it is because the way the cartouche of the goat is set on the panel. But what date is this?
ooh I do like an id ;D
m
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From what I can translate (please correct me if I am wrong)
it seems the owner wrote to PK asking for information on their goblet. It appears to me from what was said in the article:
that the colours (transparent dark green and red have been pictured) were not possible colours for mid 19thc original St Louis (His goblet is estimated to date from the later 20thc I think?). The goat goblet was originally made by St Louis in 1870 in clear glass.
These goat pieces had been known about previously and research had been ongoing to try and find from whence they originated as they appeared to be copies of original St Louis 19th c pieces. Eventually someone was found who it seemed had purchased a job lot of IVIMA produced items, some of which were these goat items. In addition to which a catalogue of IVIMA was found from 1901 that pictured my goat goblet and a handled stein with a goat on.
I think it is my goblet design pictured in that IVIMA catalogue? But the goat goblet is also pictured in the St Louis catalogue.
So what I probably need to know is, is my goblet early 20th c repro from IVIMA, or is it more recent than that? I assume it is not a St Louis of any time period, as far as I can see judging by the way the mould is made).
m
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Personally M because of the color & quality of the pressing I would venture that yours may well turn out to be an original, but thats just my opinion. Ken
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~Thanks Ken, that would be lovely if it transpires :)
otherwise I'll settle for early 20thc IVIMA but will admit to being disappointed if it was made in Portugal in 1969 ;D
Actually trying to translate and re read the article, the decision on the featured goblets in the article being IVIMA later 20thc seems to rest more on the colour of the glass rather than the design of the mould....so fingers crossed, however I still think mine looks most similar to the drawing in the IVIMA 1901 catalogue.
edited to add later -
I did search this site i've linked to but possibly my key words weren't correct to bring it up. However I have now found a St Louis clear and frosted version of my goblet here (scroll down to the second goblet which has the goats head on)- I'm pretty certain my goblet is not St Louis now as the mould is definitely different (although I suppose there is an outside chance that there were different moulds at St Louis).
http://www.pressglas.de/Pressglas_1840-1940/Sammlung/Becher_Einfuehrung/B/Fussbecher_1/fussbecher_1.html
m
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I notice that m's 'pressedintime' link runs down to an email address which begins......nicola.... I believe we did have a Nicola on the GMB, although don't know whether this was the same one. Shame if we've lost a good pressed glass member.
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here is a st louis
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mm, different design to mine but I would say mine fits in with that one quite well Ivo in terms of the mould layout, the way the head is placed on the shield shape at the front and the outline line which runs along the bottom of thepoint of the shield outline on the front :-\
how tall is yours please?
m
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a good, solid beer glass. it is in storage.
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ah :)
well I suppose if it's a copy that wouldn't be a good way of telling anyway. Mine holds 1/2pt or 250ml ;D
m
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I have had a reply from Siegmar Geiselberger and these blue and white ones were produced by IVIMA Portugal. St-Louis never produced them in these colours. I've written back to ask about date they might have been produced and will add the information if it is available.
thanks to all for your help and leads :)
m
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so are IVIMA the manufacturers who made the glass for Casa Pupo in the 1960's?
That glassware was imported from Portugal
Mel
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I have seen this goat goblet in clear with the frosted goat on the front, as an 'exhibition' piece (i.e. photographed on the site as an example of their glass, close up, front on) on the Dyatkovo Crystal glass site, stated as being produced mid XIX century, so mid 1800s. I have no idea whether mould blown or pressed or whatever. But it's the goat goblet. I cannot see what the sides look like. Dyatkovo is Russian Glass.
According to their information
'1851 The produce of the Dyatkovo crystal factory was first displayed at an International Exhibition'.
and
'1790 The manufacturer Maria Maltsova founded a crystal factory near the village of Dyatkovo on the Olshanka river.'
and
'1829 The factory's produce was highly appreciated by the jury of the first All-Russian Exhibition of manufactures. I.A.Maltsov, the owner of the factory, was awarded a "Big Gold Star".
Interesting datelines then - the musterbuch shown for Saint Louis with the goblets in was dated 1897
Source:
'Pressglas-Korrespondenz 2012-2
Seite 4 von 5 Seiten PK 2012-2/54 Stand 06.06.2012
Abb. 2004-3-01/007 (montierter Ausschnitt)
Musterbuch Saint Louis 1887, Planche 81, Cannetes à anse, Chopes à pied, Planche 81 bis, Chopes cylindrique, Chopes à anse
MB Sammlung Musée du Verre et du Cristal Meisenthal
Dekor „Diamants et tête de bouc“, Becher mit Fußring Nr. 1501, Fußbecher Nr. 1502, Krug Nr. 1503, Krug Nr. 1504 '
m
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just to add to my post above re Saint Louis dating
Mr Geiselberger actually does say in his response 'this goblet is certainly a reproduction of a goblet
made by St. Louis for the first time about 1870'
So the Saint Louis dateline production looks to be earliest c.1870.
Dyatkovo specifically says 'The goblet. The middle of the XIX century.'
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here I found some further information on the Dyatkovo question - again from Pressglas Korrespondenz
My German is about as bad as my French but it does seem to say that the first goat goblet shown is Dyatkovo but from 1900 not mid 19th century.
http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2010-4w-sg-pokal-bacc-1841-dyatkovo-1900.pdf
What I'm unsure about is whether or not they did make the goat goblet earlier than that. If anyone can translate accurately it would be much appreciated :) Thank you.
m