Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: BJB on February 24, 2007, 04:59:01 PM
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I have bought this amberina glass comport with ovals of flowers around the outside.
I have looked on ebay.com to see if I could find a match, but alot of the pieces mention
carnival/amberina glass in the same listing (eg amberina carnival glass windmill plate).
Is this because the same companies made both amberina and carnival glass, or the same moulds were used, or is amberina less popular than carnival glass ;) ?
http://i13.tinypic.com/2czage1.jpg
Barbara
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Barbara, as I understand things, both Carnival and amberina glass were made by the many of the same companies. They are both types of pressed glass so it's entirely possible to have the same piece made in Carnival, in amberina, and in flint or coloured glass. I suspect what you've seen in the listings is keyword spamming so the items turn up in various searches. :-\ Your compote appears to be amberina but I have no idea who made it. Nice-looking piece though.
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Anne , many thanks for clearing that up. It is a nice piece, and very pretty too with the flowers and well moulded.
Amberina seems to be a mainy American style of glass, in much the same way as carnival, and I haven't seen very much at all.
Its a bit brash for me, like the marigold carnival ( will stick to my small but lovely green collection, with a big thanks to Glen who first showed me that carnival is not just shudder orange ;D)
Would like to know who made it and the pattern though
Barbara
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Carnival Glass is (press) moulded, iridised glass with a pattern. It can have any base colour at all - the crucial attribute is that the glass must be iridised.
Your comport does not appear to be iridised, hence it's not Carnival Glass.
The pieces that you've seen where amberina and carnival are mentioned in the same listing will be where the base glass colour (selenium red) is also iridised. L E Smith who make the contemporary version of the Windmill pattern (the pattern was originally made by Imperial) are well known for their red Carnival Glass.
This all brings us to another tricky subject. The colour "amberina" means slightly different things. There is a purist meaning, which was first patented by Locke and Libbey in 1873. To quote Revi ("Nineteenth Century Glass") - "It was the first patented method for producing shaded and parti-colored glassware from a sensitive, homogenous metal. A very small amount of gold in the solution was colloidally dispersed in a transparent amber batch". Revi goes on to explain how the glass was then cooled and re-heated so that "this rapid cooling and reheating struck a red color in the reheated portions, casuing in the finished product a shading of amber to ruby red".
Now, red Carnival Glass was not made until the 1920s - it was around then that the use of selenium in the glass batch allowed pressed glass to be made in the colour red. It is also heat sensitive - and must be "struck" in exactly the same way as described above. The actual process was named "striking to another colour" or "striking" for short. The process relies on the introduction of chemicals to the glass batch that will ultimately change the colour of all or part of the glass item.
I'll quote now, to explain how it is done (Thistlewood "The Art of Carnival Glass"): "Pressed red is a difficult color to achieve with absolute uniformity as it is notoriously difficult to strike. When selenium red is taken from the hot glass batch it is red. However, when it is then pressed in a mould, its color becomes yellow. Subsequent re-heating causes the yellow color to change back to red—technically, what happens is that the crystals within the glass are made smaller by pressing—this causes the color change to yellow. They are then made larger by controlled re-heating, which in turn causes the yellow color to become darker and go back to red.
It’s not unusual to find a yellow shading on red Carnival Glass where the heat has not been great enough on that portion of the item being made. The shading into yellow is called amberina. Standard amberina is where the outer edges of the piece are red but as you look toward the center of the item you see an increasing amount of yellow. Reverse amberina is the opposite way round—the yellow tones are to the outer edge of the piece."
When this glass is iridised, then it's either red Carnival (if it is all red), and amberina or reverse amberina Carnival (where there is red shading).
I'm not sure if I have fully answered your question, Barbara, so please ask again if I can help any further.
Glen
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Hi Glen,
That is really wonderful, I didn't realise that making red glass was so fraught.I wish I had paid more attention to chemestry lessons at school.It is absulutely fascinating, and I presume very time consuming to make ( not including the ones that were meant to be all red!)
Does this make the comport reverse amberina as only the stem is yellow/orange?
Here is the inside to show you that is is all red
http://i18.tinypic.com/2cda8v9.jpg
This is the only colour I have seen, apart from flint,which could have been a carnival piece as the design is the same only the finish is different. I have never seen just a plain marigold glass plate for example which wasn't iridised, but I presume they exist? And in the same vein (sorry Glen :-*)
does flint carnival glass exist?
The more I find out the less I realise I know. Its like standing at the bottom of a very tall hill and trying to see the top, you keep getting a little glimpse now and again just to keep you going and then its back to the hard work of getting off the bottom!
Barbara
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I'd call your comport amberina, Barbara - the outer edges in this case would be the deep red of the bowl part of the piece. Fenton's red Holly comports often have this effect (scroll down this page).
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/fenton.html
By flint Carnival, do you mean Carnival with a clear base glass? If that's what you are asking, then the answer is yes. In fact the most popular (easily found) Carnival "colour" is on clear / flint base glass. It's marigold! Marigold Carnival is clear base glass with a golden marigold iridescence. Some smoke carnival is also on a clear base glass. White Carnival is also on clear base glass - it can then be etched to give a frosty look to the glass, and then iridised - hey presto - white Carnival. And there's even Clear Carnival, where a pastel iridescence is applied to clear glass.
It would be impossible to have a plain marigold glass plate which wasn't iridised. If it was marigold - then that IS the colour of the iridescence. But you could have a clear glass item that is also known in Carnival Glass - there are lots of those around :)
And oh yes..... if the striking goes too far when they are making red, it can end up black!
Glen
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Hi Glen,
Yes I meant clear carnival, without the top colour, just iridised. I will have to see if I can find any now. I knew marigold was the wrong thing to put just as I pressed the post button ::) as I can't remember how often you've said that marigold is on a clear base duh.
Now as I try to show I have learnt something from the sites I keep reading, are the little bits in between the flowers called daisy button, and could it be a Fenton piece?
I am trying really I am,
Barbara
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Hi Barbara :) it could be Fenton - and in fact the pattern has a familiarity to me, but I cannot place it. I have actually paged through two Fenton books since I saw your first post! Have you checked it for a Fenton mark? Could even be a simple F. Is there some kind of label on the inside (or is it a trick of the light?)
I'm sure someone will know what the pattern is - and then we'll all kick ourselves.
EDITED TO ADD.... or could it be European?
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Glen -
I think it is a European piece and it is on Pamela's website. I think it has fooled us before :D
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Hi Connie - yes that is where I have just been looking. That's why I put my previous PS in. But I can't see it..... Have you found it yet?
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6434.0.html ::)
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Ok Tony you don't have to be such a smart young whippersnapper ;D
Thank you I would have been searching all day through Pamela's site ;)
Where is Pamela?? Chinese New Year is over. Maybe she is still recovering from the Year of the Pig celebration ;)
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Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs!
Thanks for the ID, I had no idea that the Swedish made amberina glass, clocks and stunning etched glass but not amberina.
Could it be 1930's or may it be later?
Glen, that thing in the bottom is the roof of the conservatory reflection, I dashed out quick to take it and the light was dire.
See, am back down to the base of that hill again ::) ::)
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I'm sure someone will know what the pattern is - and then we'll all kick ourselves.
EDITED TO ADD.... or could it be European?
Thank you, TC! ;D ;D I knew I'd seen it before....but where? ;D
Barbara, thanks for the explanation of the mystery label that I thought I saw ;D
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Glen - One minor issue with your otherwise perfect description (and to add more confusion for everyone else), so-called self-striking selenium reds were widely made, at least in the industrial field. Transport rear lights in pre-plastic days struck red in the mould, although the thinner edges (in use covered by the fitting) remained amber. The thicker the (part of) the article the longer heat would be retained and hence be more likely to strike. I'll bet some of the comports etc appearing with red bowls and amber feet/legs would have come out of the mould looking like that although any necessary re-heating would have darkened the red. That last sentence is guesswork - I've little practical experience in non-industrial rubies.
Adam D.
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Adam, many thanks for your info, as always. I think Thomas Kopp is the person credited with introducing selenium red, isn't he? His company was the one that made the first red signal lights, I believe (could be wrong, of course).
My information regarding red Carnival is based on that given to me by (among others at Fenton) Fenton's Chief Chemist. So it is limited in its relevance to their pressed output.
I've got another little bit to add to this topic too - check out your red / amberina pieces with a UV (black) light. You'll notice that the amber parts glow! I took the following from a 1938 issue of the technical British journal "Glass" (described as "the recognised organ of the glass industry") that concentrated on the effects of UV on various compositions of glass. The main colouring agent that causes an orange glow under UV light is cadmium, usually in the form of cadmium sulphide. The journal reported that the fluorescence could vary from a citron yellow through to a dark red. Cadmium was usually added to the glass batch along with selenium to create red glass.
A further fascinating fact emerged - red to amberina glass will glow where the amber parts are. Selenium red with no amberina does not glow. To achieve the red glass the item is usually reheated to strike the glass. Until the moment of striking, the selenium/cadmium glass will react to UV light and glow. However, when the red colour appears, the fluorescence vanishes.
I have only tried the above with red and amberina Carnival (also the unusual colour called "Geraldine's Delight" that was made by Summit and...I think...Kemple before that. Someone will correct me if I am wrong). It's fascinating to see the orange glow. Try it on your comport, Barbara.
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Hi Glen,
Have just checked it and the orange stem glows, but the yellow foot and the red bowl have no reaction at all, it looks really wierd.
Is amberina still made anywhere else other than the USA?
Barbara
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Is amberina still made anywhere else other than the USA?
Good question! I would think the answer is yes, but I am not au fait with current glass production outside the USA. My knowledge of areas outside the US is more concerned with past production rather than current.
I am sure someone will give us details :)
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Hi all ;D
Just dropped in after several days of being very busy elsewhere. (Clearing my MiL's flat since - heaven thanks - she now lives in a 'seniour's residence' - she is what we call a MESSIE in German)
I am unable to contribute regarding the chemistry of glass - thanks to all, especially Glen, in this matter :D
Regarding the shape:
We had that one here previously, a lot depends on the star base of the upper bowl... Ivo has got one that is different to mine; a new small blue income here (not yet uploaded on my site) is similar to Ivo's. Glen has traced Polish catalogues of Niemen and Hortensja - you'll find it also there - Glen, please, is the base of the bowl visible in your Polish catalogues?
My contributing it to Sweden originates from my dear friend Dr. Doris Billek, who bought an absolutely similar to mine from a former glassworker of Strombergshyttan.
I'm still comparing and I would like to say: please count the diamonds between the floral medaillons - this could lead us further
Yes, Chinese New Year festivities ended and I am eagerly awaiting our daughter's call to be back to Shanghai - she and her friend had escaped for a break to the Philippines last week :)
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Glen has traced Polish catalogues of Niemen and Hortensja - you'll find it also there - Glen, please, is the base of the bowl visible in your Polish catalogues?
Hi Pamela - I've checked Niemen and Hortensja catalogues but this comport is not there. :-\
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Pamela,
This is going to sound a really stupid question, but do you mean the diamonds all the way to the bottom and around the base of the flowers to the bottom of the dish, or just the ones which are between the two ovals, which there are 26.
Barbara