Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Glass Reference Websites => Topic started by: Cathy B on September 07, 2004, 11:38:05 AM
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http://ozcrowncrystal.tripod.com
I've been half-heartedly working on this website for years, but it suddenly became known to Google so I've had to hurriedly bring it up to scratch. It is still really in draft form.
Please feel free to comment, advise and criticise.
I'm interested in just how far I should go in terms of references. Most of the data I've worked with comes from catalogues and the like, some word of mouth histories (which I've learnt to take with a pinch of salt...) and archival material. If it were a scientific paper, every sentence would be referenced, but I don't feel that that level of reference is appropriate for a website, particularly when it involves some intellectual property and protection of my research (which is only beginning). What do other people think?
Cathy.
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Hi Cathy,
See my reply to topic "Trying to identify these patterns" of last Sunday. Not everyone is as tolerant as Frank, and there must be many who cannot match his expertise and his defences against such obnoxious invasive intrusions.
My warmest, Bernard C. 8)
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Hi Cathy
Congratulations on new web site, looking good so far, If I can help in anyway, I have some piece's of glass in the patterns you show, other shapes, you are welcome to photos, I have ID a few more pieces that hve been buging me for quite some time.
Looking forward to the next episode!!
Tony H in NZ.
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To be honest, I'm not sure how far I want it read outside Australia. It only takes one enthusiastic overseas collector to push up prices enormously, and then our heritage, such as it is, goes off overseas!
This has happened with carnival glass - and, believe it or not, it happens with the little Allens jelly bean moneyboxes (made by Australian Glass Manufacturers Co. Ltd). A book written in America claimed it to be extraordinarily rare and worth some ridiculous price (I think circa $US 150 or something else ludicrous). Ever since, a very nice Texan chap has purchaced every single Allens money box that has appeared on Australian eBay. Of course, this guy has every right to buy whatever he wants, and he is lovely, but it is a little distressing to see it happen. While not quite on the Elgin Marbles scale, it still hurts...:)
Cathy.
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Cathy
Have a look at this link, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/d554to/Decovase2.jpg of a vase in the Deco pattern, I think, but unlike yours this one has a round base, and the pattern is opposite way round to your green piece on your web site, it is 61/8" high and has a 3" base, the top is also 3" in diameter.
Cannot be sure from your photo, is your green piece quite large.
Tony.
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Hi David - could you post me that line of code? :) my email is cathyb@N-O-S-P-A-M-netspeed.com.au
Tony - Sorry it's taken so long to reply.
That particular pattern has turned out to be another which was copied. It's a long story. Most collectors believed that anything with that pattern "Deco" or "Wave on wall" was made by Crown Crystal, and I just assumed because everyone said it was, that it must be so. Culpa mea! Looking at the documents I have, the vase illustrated is yours, 6.5", with a round base and a larger pattern-free panel at the top.
The vase on the website is not in these documents at all. It doesn't mean that they didn't make it, but it does raise questions, especially given that the Australians were copying wildly in the 1930s.
The story is that some of these vases have turned up with the Crown Crystal label. But this is heresay, and I don't know which of the vases did and which didn't, because the collecting fraternity here has just assumed that anything in that pattern is Crown Crystal.
In short, I *believe* at this point that your vase is Australian, and that the one illustrated on my website is not, and have amended the text to that effect. Once people start copying other people, tracing provinance becomes very difficult - the Americans are so far ahead of us here!
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Hi Cathy
Thank you for your reply, makes interesting reading, you can if you wish copy my photo and put it on your web page for collectors to compare.
Crown Crystal with labels, I have a small dish with lid, which has a label inside.
Tony H.
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Hi Cathy
Here is a link to another Yahoo photo album I have just put together on Crown Crystal Glass.
http://au.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tony554nz/album?.dir=bdd6&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%
I have used your web site for Catalogue # and names ( thank you hope that is OK ) I would be greatful for your comments.
Tony H in NZ
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Hi Tony - it all looks in order to me. I'll check my catalogues to get the precise numbers for you. The first two digits tend to be the series number (i.e. pattern number), with the second two identifying the individual piece.
Cheers,
Cathy
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Hi Tony
The actual pattern numbers are the following:
26 series "Panels and Diamonds":
Handled sugar - I can't find any sugars in my refs! I'm fairly certain this one is Crown, but you'll have to say 26 series.
Covered butter - is #2640 "Butter & cover"
Small fruit - is #2662 "Toed salad"
Handled comport - Is mentioned, but not pictured, in Gary Workman's pattern sheets, but there is no number, so you just have to call it 26 series 2 handled comport.
Handled celery - likewise mentioned and not pictured, so it has to be called a 26 series handled celery.
29 Series "Petaloid"
Comport - either 8 inch or 10 inch - both #2970
Creamer - 2960
Sugar - 2935
(I note you have 39 - which must mean that there's a typo on my site! Thanks for that!)
45 Series"Diamonds and Fans"
There's some question over whether this pattern actually is Australian, because there are only 4 shapes, and they are such a fussy pattern for Australian glass. I believe they were made locally because they turn up in the right colours, but I wonder whether perhaps the moulds were imported?
Two handled comport - #4578
This is a great piece though, and not particularly common.
Hope this is of some help,
Cathy.
(refs: Australian Glass Pattern Sheets, Gary Workman 1994
Australian Depression Glass, Ken Arnold 2004
Original catalogues)
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This marigold Carnival vase was found in the UK a few years ago. I feel that it is very possibly a Czech item (Rindskopf is my bet).....but of course, it is the Petaloid pattern.
(http://tinypic.com/dvt5dc.jpg)
Glen
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Hi Glen - Yes, I remember this pattern showing up. This particular form is not shown in any of the catalogues/books/archives etc that I have seen.
But it does throw up questions about the petaloid pattern. I can almost guarantee that Czech glass will be much better made.
Speaking of which I was wondering about the Panels and Diamonds pattern. A couple of the pieces noted here in Australia and which Tony owns don't seem to be pictured anywhere, which makes me wonder whether it might have also been made elsewhere. Does it ring a bell? Can you follow through to Tony's link and see what you think?
All the best,
Cathy
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- Oh, something I meant to ask when you last put feelers out about that vase, Glen - what sort of base does it have on it? Is it ground and polished anywhere?
Cathy
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I can almost guarantee that Czech glass will be much better made.
Oh Cathy.....you haven't seen some of the late Rindskopf pressed glass then! Not the very highest quality, believe me.
Unfortunately the vase isn't mine - but I am in contact with the person who owns it (provided he still does!) I'll see if I can find out what the base is like.
I don't recognise the Panels and Diamonds pattern, but I'll see if I can find it anywhere.
Glen
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I hope you can't find the Panels and Diamonds pattern, because that means we can assume it's Australian :)
There are a few other patterns I must float to see whether they are influenced, or possibly imported!
Thanks for all your help!
Cathy.
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I hope you can't find the Panels and Diamonds pattern, because that means we can assume it's Australian :)
:lol: I shall stop looking Cathy :lol: :lol:
Seriously now.......I will do some "looking" with regard to all this (may take a short while).
Glen
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Cathy, my friend has kindly sent me the following details and photo of his Petaloid vase.
(http://tinypic.com/e0ivit.jpg)
The base of the vase is ground, not polished, and is domed.
Please find below some information that may (or may not !) be useful:-
3 piece mould
Overall height - 205mm
Top diameter - 90mm (has a slight flare)
Base outside diameter - 71mm
Base inside diameter - 50mm
Depth of domed base - 10mm
Glen
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Glen - thank you very much for going to all this trouble! I haven't got the corresponding petaloid vase, but I have never seen an Australian piece with a domed, ground base like that.
I seem to recall we had a discussion about this piece before and that you already came to the conclusion that it wasn't Australian. You're definitely right, but it doesn't help to identify who did make it! Sigh.
I've gone through your Sowerby CD now (which is highly highly recommended everyone!!). There are a few Sowerby and/or Sowerby inspired pieces in the Australian catalogues. They are not the most exciting designs, so I don't think they would have bothered copying them. Haven't time tonight, but at some point in the future (probably after the next assignment is done) I'll drag out the numbers and get pics.
Just as a general question, did Sowerby make anything in uranium yellow in the 1930s?
Cheers Glen, and thanks for all your help and patience!
Cathy.
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Cathy, one very quick response from me....my gut feel is that this vase was made by Rindskopf. I can give you all the reasons why I suspect that, but I thought I'd go straight to the bottom line and make this a quick note :lol:
Glen
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Hi again, just another short one. In the Czech special you sent me, I also note that our "shell panels" is heavily influenced by Rindskopf's "inverted prisms". They are different enough to be destinct though - particularly in the scallop shell pattern which is around the top of the Australian version.
It's kind of depressing. All these fantastic deco patterns I thought might have been Australian originals have turned out to be influenced.
Cheers,
Cathy
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Hi Cathy
This may be off the topic a little - but I thought the following vase on ebay was interesting because of its similarity in some ways to the Australian 'Petals' vase:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7358301797&fromMakeTrack=true
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Thanks Jo, that's brilliant! I wondered when something like that would show up, since everything else in that era seems to have been copied from somewhere else. There are a couple of prominent original designs from about 1939, and I'm not sure all made it through to production.
The petals vase was made in a posy vase size (it's either 1.5 or 2" high - will have to check, no time now), but this one seems to be more flared.
All the best,
Cathy.
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:shock: :shock: I have just dragged my little Petals vase from the top of a cupboard where I had forgotten all about it... and it's far more similar to the vase on ebay than I remembered.
I've taken a photo (ignore the messy desk and the muck on the vase!). The pattern of the petals on mine is definitely the Australian Petals pattern - the same as on the larger less conical vase and is slightly different to the one on ebay.
http://tinypic.com/erh215.jpg
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Thanks again Jo! I have all three sizes made in Australia, but now I don't know what is what. One of them is green and frosted, and one has that alternate frit/plain panel effect. I'll have to dig them all out and compare now. And of course, there's always the possibility that they got hold of the mould.
Bitten off far more than I can chew here.
Cathy
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The pics and Tony's album link have all gone from this topic - could they be restored please for future reference? Many thanks. :)