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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => China & Taiwan => Topic started by: paradisetrader on October 21, 2005, 07:47:57 PM

Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on October 21, 2005, 07:47:57 PM
There has been some discussion about Chinese glass and it often crops up in identifiaction.

The Chinese makers have imitated styles of glass more usually associated with other countries. Inexperienced (& experienced) collectors often buy glass which they think is one thing but turns out to be something different - often Chinese.

Some Chinese glass is not very good quality but we have noted here that the quality is rapidly improving and can now fool even experienced collectors. There are now some signs of skill and some interesting originality.

I have collaberated with Terry on a small project to show some glass which we know is Chinese (labelled as such) so that collectors can get some idea of what is "out there" and learn some of the features of new and contemporary Chinese Glass.  

We feel that there is nothing wrong with buying and collecting Chinese glass but that collectors should know what they are buying and how it differs from the glass produced elsewhere.

It's my first attempt at a web site so not sophisticated and uses free-hosting so is quite limited (ie the pages are very limited in length).

I learned today from another member posting here that allowable bandwith to free geocities sites is very limited so I apologise in advance if it fails to load ....please try later. If it becomes a serious problem I shall look into moving it elsewhere sooner rather than later.
Enjoy
 
http://www.geocities.com/muscadale/
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Ivo on October 21, 2005, 08:02:26 PM
Nice selection, I recognise at least half the models from our local Chinese giftware store. The quality of the Chinese production is currently amazing, and prices are unbeatable.
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Glassyone on October 22, 2005, 05:19:24 AM
Peter, is this Chinese too? Not the one on the left , that is my reference one, which I think is a genuine 'Snowflakes' vase. The one on the right is squatter in shape, the casing is crude [in creases under the rim], the neck and rim slightly less refined, the 'handles' are less elegant and the bases are different. Is the one with the 'Snowflakes' label not?  
Cheers Ruth  
http://tinypic.com/etekxz.jpg
http://tinypic.com/etelc2.jpg
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on October 22, 2005, 09:06:30 AM
The one with the fold-over rim (blaue speckled black) is actually ovoid or "flattened". I'm guessing that when it was just about finished, they reheated the whole piece (except for the base) and used paddles to squash it ....hence the rim.  So, it's a quirky piece all round and I like it because of that and if asked to ID it I would be stumped.

As to your two pieces Ruth, please understand that I am not an expert on Chinese glass and am learning along with everyone else. Also, all these pieces are Terry's so I haven't had the opportunity of handling them myself.

I have seen some labeled Chinese glass in a smart "design" shop in  Hay's Galleria (http://www.haysgalleria.co.uk/Hays/HaysGalleria.nsf/galleria?OpenFrameSet) the old tea clipper wharf on the south bank. The quality of that stuff was stunning to me. Faced with it, without labels, I would swear it was Scandinavian and try as I might I coiuld not fault the quality. I must go back and buy some, when I can, to add to the site.  

However, sticking my neck out here, I would say that there are enough similarities between these your two vases to say that they were came from the same place, and I would guess Chinese. I don't think you can read too much into relatively small differences in quality.
What does the label say ?
Your refs to Snowflake are also lost on me.  Sorry !
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: glasswizard on October 22, 2005, 11:53:36 AM
Hi Ruth, Pina in her book "Fifties glass" shows Snowflake vases in red. I guess we must remember that the Chinese not only copy others, they copy themselves. It would not surprise me that both vases are Snowflake, the red an earlier example. This of course is just IMHO. I actually like the multicolored one better, more free and fun in spirit while the red seems more formal. Terry
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on October 22, 2005, 01:18:54 PM
Thanks Terry
Page 143 in my edition and a close up of the label on p178.
It certainly looks exactly like those Ruth so I would say yes a genuine Snowflake !
The label is black on gold with a central double circle, a Snowflake design in the middle, chinese characters around the top half and the word "Snowflakes" in the bottom half ; "Made in China" to the left of the circle and I presume the same in Chinese to the right ...all that in gold.
Hopefully that will help you to compare with the label on the right hand vase.
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 01:44:07 PM
Great site, Peter. It was fascinating to look around.

And did you know that the Chinese also made Carnival Glass?

Glen
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anne on October 22, 2005, 02:23:33 PM
Peter, you already know I like both the site and the idea behind it, so I won't add more.  :) 

I will, however, add my Chinese bowl to the pile
http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-25

It is red cased clear, very heavy, a  nice piece which may be mistaken for something else without its label.  I know this is Chinese as it has its label which says Sixtrees London New York Crafted in Taiwan

http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-604
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Glassyone on October 23, 2005, 01:42:29 AM
Thankyou Terry and Peter, I much prefer the red one myself, so when I've peered at the others and photographed them they can go, along with heaps of others.
The label is black and silver only and half is missing. It has a stylised snowflake in the centre, surrounded by two circles and within the circles is 'Snowflakes'. The label looks to have been a squashed hexagonal shape.
I shall look out for Pina's fifties glass book, it sounds to be very useful.
Cheers Ruth
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anne on October 23, 2005, 04:51:15 AM
Ruth, can I trouble you for a photo of the label for the gallery please? One large enough to see clearly and read all the details if possible. Thank you. :)
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Glassyone on October 23, 2005, 05:08:44 AM
http://tinypic.com/eufq7t.jpg

Not the best, it's damaged.
Ruth
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on October 24, 2005, 02:20:26 PM
Thank you Ruth
Yep thats the snowflake label alright. The fact that it's silver rather than gold is not important ...apart from that, what shows is exactly the same.
Could I use your pic on the site please ?  I will give acknowledgment of course.
I think it's important to include some older Chinese pieces to make us realise that the Chinese have been producing decorative glass for many years.
It's worth  noting here that some Chinese paperweights are now sought after. I belive these were made in the 1930's !!!
Terry has "found" some more modern / new pieces and taken photos to add but I'm now cosidering the best way to move forward with the site and think I shall do something a little more adventurous as I'm finding the limitations there irksome.
I don't that I'll be requesting hosting from the Chinese though. I don't fancy being dictated to on any level.
Having given it some thought, I do think a section for Taiwan would be a good idea. Terry bought a piece with a label just this week-end and with Anne's piece, that's two if she will kindly allow me to include it.
Anne I'd forgotten the name of that HTML editor you told me about. I wrote it down and thought yep thats easy to remember. The piece of paper has gone and so have my memory brain cells !!! eeeek !
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Pinkspoons on October 24, 2005, 03:48:51 PM
Quote from: "Anne"
I will, however, add my Chinese bowl to the pile...


Ah, so that's what that is. I've had one of these pottering around for a while and casually assumed it was Italian!  :D

And Sixtrees still seem to be up and running, making picture frames and glass desk accessories.
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: chuggy on October 24, 2005, 04:20:50 PM
Peter
On the earlier Chinese pw's I sold a couple on ebay last week, but if you want a picture thers is one on the PW page where Leni kindly told me what they were, this is the white based ones.
Paul
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Glassyone on October 24, 2005, 06:11:37 PM
I'm please there will be a site for all this Chinese glass. As for my photo's, any of them, such as they are at the moment, you're welcome to use them.

Ruth   :lol:
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anne on October 24, 2005, 07:24:47 PM
Peter, please feel free to use any of my pics you want for the Chinese site, I've a couple of Chinese paperweights in my gallery as well if you want pics of them? The Sixtrees label is in the Labels album on Yobunny gallery - I'll copy it over to GlassGallery with the next batch, so you can grab it from either if you want that. I'm not sure what else I have that is known Chinese - I'll have a rummage and let you know! :)

The html editor is NVU (pronounced newview!) - see the site here: http://www.nvu.com/

Oh yes, I just remembered, I have one of the Chinese Plum Blossom vases which I bought to compare with Mum's ones which uncle brought home from Murano in the 60's. That's in Y Gallery as well.
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: bubbles on October 24, 2005, 10:03:32 PM
Peter,
You are welcome to use the bud vase picture/label for your site if you wish. You will find it listed under PBG on the identification/label section of my website.  I suspect it stands for Plum blossom glass (but not definitely confirmed yet).
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on October 26, 2005, 02:04:39 PM
Chuggy, Ruth, Anne & Bubbles
Thank you all for your offers

I have done aother page (page 5) http://www.geocities.com/muscadale/musc5.html
and already spotted something interesting .....

Opinions please as to whether it is sufficiently similar to warn the webmaster of this site
http://ginforsodditiques.com/zwiesel.html
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anne on October 26, 2005, 03:05:55 PM
Peter, I'd say similar but different enough to be from a different maker. Perhaps contact the seller of the "Zweisel" one and suggest he looks at the Chinese one on Muscadale and then makes his own mind up about it.

You could perhaps preface the message by saying we are comparing known Chinese products with similar designs to see if we can find whose patterns are being copied (or something along those lines?) to help buyers of both to be sure of what they actually have, given the improvements in some Chinese production.
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anne E.B. on October 26, 2005, 03:07:22 PM
Peter, I've had a squint at the two vases and they do look mightily similar, but I've spotted some differences also...  


The Muscadale (Chinese) is a much lighter colour and looks more transparent if you know what I mean. (but could be light conditions)
It has a more pronounced hoop in the mid section above the larger wider hoop than the Zweisel.  It also has an indentation underneath this larger hoop before flaring out into a bell shape, unlike the Zweisel. (but this might be because of the angle of the photo?)
It has a clear glass base unlike the Zweisel.

Its a pity they both don't also mention height.

Anne E.B. :wink:
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Ivo on October 26, 2005, 03:42:21 PM
I seem to remember that it was me a while back who advised Forest that his somber dark blue solid colour and shape were specific for Zwiesel in the sixties, and I don't see a similarity with the Chinese clear cased cobalt blue one - other than the shape...
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anonymous on October 26, 2005, 05:14:15 PM
Some links to Chinese/Oriental modern art glass manufacturers selling online

http://hotproducts.alibaba.com/manufacturers-exporters/Glass_Vases.html

http://www.chinasuppliers.globalsources.com/cn-suppliers/Art-Glass-Vase.htm

Note Dalian as being one of the biggest manufacturers of art glass – it would seem from the link below, if I have my sources right that they have a finger in many a pie

http://www.cbw.com/business/usco-ne/dalian.html
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anonymous on October 26, 2005, 08:28:56 PM
Quote
Opinions please as to whether it is sufficiently similar to warn the webmaster of this site
http://ginforsodditiques.com/zwiesel.html


I think that Chinese companies have directly copied other forms, and still are that it may be a bit rash to report to the webmaster - I know the guys that run this site and they have helped me a lot with my WG Pottery, they really good researchers and I can't see them purposefully trying to sell a copy

I have learned from the Dalian / Nason copies that the Chinese are capable of just lifting whole design ranges from companies especially if the design copyright has run out as it has on so much retro glass - like with the Dalian / Nason copies (see Murano thread), I think Ginfors' is a darker glass of better quality as Ivo indicates - ultimate proof would be seeing the base of the Chinese vase as Ginfors shows us theirs very clearly

I do think that some modern Chinese art glass is of good quality and design for the price asked as Ivo has pointed out, but there is also a lot of plagiarism
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on October 28, 2005, 12:43:33 PM
Thank you Annes, Ivo & guest.
Your comments noted and no action taken.
I do know that Forrest Poston takes all reasonable measures to identify his items accurately and did not mean to infer any complicity on his part.

I finally managed to replace the rather fuzzy pic of the Chinese one (Java hitch) with this  taken head on
(http://www.geocities.com/muscadale/TChineRiihimakistyle8in.jpg) plus added comments.
Sorry for making you squint Anne.

Thank you for the links, guest. ...very interesting.

Copying
Proving that a certain design is copied from another must be a nightmare not to mention the cost of defending registered designs. I did not know that there was such a thing as a design copyright. How does it work ? Which body does the registration ?
I have worded this topic a little more sensitively on the site...erring on the side of benefit-of-doubt.
It's instructive to remember that in the glass world generally where copiers went on to develop and improve upon a design or design concept we talk of "influences".
Here there are small differences in shape plus obviously the casing, which is why I asked the question. However I do find the similarity of shape suspicious, yet there would need to be more similarities than shape alone to be considered a copy I guess.

The color is difficult to compare beause of different lighting conditions and different color of background, but yes I agree that from the photos they do NOT seem to be the same shade.

The quality of the glass does seem different although I don't feel able to judge which is better by sight alone. Ivo does not comment on quality at all.
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2005, 08:43:22 PM
Designs of any sort can be copyrighted – it usually lasts for a period of 25 years so many of 1970s designs can actually be outright copies if the modern company is capable of it (which it usually isn't). I have been at the sharp end of this as a designer myself when I had to take a company to court for breaking copyright on a surface pattern design I did

Here is a link (it is to a company that explains the copyright law and is in no way meant to advertise that particular company)

I am less sure about the renewal of design copyright; I think it is in the link below in one of the long legal documents

http://www.jenkins-ip.com/patlaw/introdes.htm

This is of course UK design law; I forget it may differ in other countries

I agree that companies or individual glass makers can often be seen as being influenced rather than copying older glass - they still have to watch if it's within the 25 year limit though, I am sure modern Daum or Lalique would be quick to act on the closest similarity to one of there exclusive items

With retro glass on a high at the moment more companies in Poland and China are being tempted to create items with the very strong influence of Whitefriars, Riihimaen or Holmegaard. I think sometimes they copy outright if there is a market, the item in question could be a case in point
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: glasswizard on December 04, 2005, 01:50:08 PM
Chinese surprises continue. I have had this vase quite awhile and assumed it was either murano or czech.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/Muscadale/chineseexactsamegranniesmadeinchina.jpg)

Imagine my total surprise when I went to one of my favorite haunts for glass and saw another one at a very cheap price. I picked it up and lo and behold there was a lable.  "Made in China  Teleflora"  My first reaction was **** its chinese and my next was what kind of Floral arrangement could possibly be conceived using it. Of course its heavy, so it won't tip over and with those wings, you can easily pick it up and move it. The ever practical, I guess. So another chinese piece to add to the list. Terry
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: catshome on July 01, 2006, 11:31:02 PM
Hi Peter,

Have just been to look at your site and I think it's both useful and scary.............from the photograph the flamingo looks stunning and I could easily take a flyer (sorry) on it if I saw it at a fair without a label.

We're always hearing experts tell us to only buy what we like.............but that's easier said than done when it comes to glass as I don't think I've met a piece of glass yet that I didn't like!  

So I'm trying to gain some measure of "expertise" and I think the thing that would be most useful would be if there was a website where we could see more bottoms.  The pictures of the snowflake vases are a good example - side by side there wasn't much between them, but the bottoms did look to be slightly different.

I have quite a few pieces unsigned but with distinctive bottoms, and I'd love to know where I could go to see some more for comparison.  Would you consider a second website??

Thanks again for putting the information out there.
Cat
Title: Definitely Chinese
Post by: Tigerchips on July 02, 2006, 09:27:46 AM
Chinese site, a bit slow even on Broadband though
http://www.cnexpot.com/index.html

I saw something similar to this the other day
link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GREEN-WITH-GOLD-FLECKS-MURANO-ANGEL-7-1-2-TALL_W0QQitemZ7423491692QQihZ016QQcategoryZ994QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

The one I saw was clear with gold inclusions in the bottom half. It had a polished pontil and it was nicely made. It also had a "Made In Taiwan" sticker on the base.  :shock:

There are others on ebay with Murano stickers, I can only presume that the sticker on the one I saw was stuck on by mistake or they are making these in Taiwan as well.  :?

Just spotted a Monart or Vasart vase described as Chinese in the completed listing, doh.  :roll:
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: catshome on July 02, 2011, 09:22:41 AM
The geocities links for Peter's pictures of chinese glass don't work anymore - does anyone know if the site has been moved to a new host?

Thanks
Cat
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: MuranoArtGlassChandeliers on January 05, 2012, 09:50:01 PM
HI

I am not sure if my fellow members were made aware of the seizure of Chinese Glass in Murano around June of 2010.  The Carbinieri seized over 16 Million USD worth of imported Chinese Glass being sold as genuine Murano by one unscrupulous showroom.  These were mainly smaller items such as Jewelry etc totalling over 11 Million individual pieces, but they had authentic Murano labels applied and were dispersed in and among the genuine Murano items in a deliberate attempt to deceive.  It just goes to show that if you aren't sure, then ask the question and request evidence of authtenticity

Dean
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on March 19, 2012, 12:00:36 PM
geocities no longer exists. I should have moved the whole thing while I had a chance. I came across their email warning me of the impending closure but too late. My bad.

I still have the photos on my machine plus many others gathered from the web over the years and a few suspects of my own now too.
Perhaps I should load Terry's original photos onto this board's photo gallery (which didn't exist back then) ?
The newer web pics will have copyright issues as there's no way to contact the owners to request permission.
Or any other suggestions?

Thanks Dean for posting about the seizure of Chinese Glass in Murano in 2010. We here have come across anecdotal evidence that this has been happening for many decades in Venice / Murano and probably elsewhere but until this, no proof.

I have personally bought a few glass bird "sculptures", I would guess from the 50s to mid70s, the quality of which has been highly suspect in comparison to my others, but still no proof.

Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: paradisetrader on March 19, 2012, 01:49:28 PM
Terrys photos are here
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/Muscadale/chinese%20glass/
View as slideshow
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/Muscadale/chinese%20glass/?albumview=slideshow
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: MuranoArtGlassChandeliers on September 21, 2012, 10:40:09 AM
Hi all

One thing that the Chinese try to do is copy the polished pontil on Vintage and even newer sculptures, figurines etc from Murano.  You may find a polished pontil but it is almost always clumsily polished, uneven in circumference and the outer ring is normally left scarred as the item is never broken off a pontil but sawn off.

Dean
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 21, 2012, 10:45:13 AM
Dean, the pontil is the metal rod the glass is held on while the piece is being finished. 
When it is broken off, it leaves a pontil mark. :)
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: MuranoArtGlassChandeliers on September 21, 2012, 11:24:39 AM
HI

I am well aware of what a pontil rod is but thanks for the info anyway.  Murano Glass is our speciality and has been for some years and the pontil mark is the centre of the piece not the whole base as I am sure you are well aware.  All I am saying here is that the Chinese actually saw off a piece from the Pontil rod when fully blown and more often than not, it is actually molded not hand blown which is why the piece is sawn off to make it appear as if it has been hand blown

Dean
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 21, 2012, 11:31:10 AM
 :) Dean - you described a bit of glass as having a pontil.   :o
I was only correcting your description.

The misuse of the word pontil to mean pontil mark is something that really, really annoys me.
I'm a bit pedantic about it. Sorry. :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Definitely Chinese
Post by: catshome on September 25, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Please can we see some bottoms too for labelled Chinese pieces  :-[

Thank you!
Cat