Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on May 11, 2011, 08:35:21 PM
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Back in September 09, I posted a picture of a small amber desert bowl with a Stuart back stamp, and a Rd. No. for March 1921 - and by way of a bit of egotism here is its big brother which I've just acquired - with a diameter of something like 8"/205mm This has a back stamp, but is without a Rd. No. - amazing the things that turn up when you are least expecting them. Of course, I have no idea for how long this design was produced - may well have been for many years, unless someone does in fact know.
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Hi Paul, my name is Peter I live in New Zealand and have been referred by another collector to your post - I actually collect this range :) its called the Stratford Service and the first 21 peices were registered by Stuart in 1921, they kept adding shapes for the next twenty or so years. Stratford was an extremely important service in Stuart history because its was at that time that they standardised their production to mould blown forms. While the blowers got used to the new methods the pieces were blown in coloured glass and left relatively undecorated - the Stratford Service was available in green, blue, and two different versions of amber.
Plain peices are fairly rare as Stuart employed a number of decorators so peices were either enamelled or cut with various patterns. Once they settled on which shapes best suited decorating, a number of shapes were eliminated from production, but if you examine any later Stuart crystal (especially the sweet dishes) you'll see the same stepped rings as are on your examples.
Both of your pieces were discontinued, so you won't see later decorated versions. I'm always careful describing things as rare, but as you probably know they are seldom seen. As far as I know there is one other collection apart from mine, which I believe is in Devon.
Regards, Peter
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Hello Peter, and welcome to the GMB - and my thanks for your interest in these pieces of Stuart. It was my mistake to omit the name of this particular service, although I was in fact aware of the name 'Stratford' because there are several pages on Stuart glass in Miller's "20th - Century Glass", and this was how I first knew of this particular design. I think my smaller desert dish is pattern No. 22996 and is described as a 'Sweet' - although unfortunately, I know nothing of the larger bowl. As you say, plain pieces of Stuart seem far less common than their decorated examples/cut glass, which is sometimes quite abundant. You obviously know much more than me about Stuart - I probably don't have more than half a dozen pieces, plus several drinking glasses - but I can appreciate the quality. Do you collect the mould blown range only, or perhaps some cut glass as well?? I notice that you refer to green, blue and amber colours (at least for 'Stratford') - although I do have a clear example of the small vase (No. 23887 -I think, but Nos. are too small on the page to be sure). I have now attached a picture of this clear piece together with another example in the same pattern in 'Apple Green', and would appreciate you comments as to whether this clear example is rare or common. Another iconic Stuart design is 'Woodchester' - although I belive this appears on cut glass only - some of which I have, and as with 'Stratford' I believe Woodchester goes back a long way, and I think it is a shame that it appears so few people collect what was a quality producer such as Stuart - when their output was so diverse and interesting. Look forward to seeing some of your collection, and my thanks again for your very informative reply. :)
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I actually see a fair more plain Stratford on my travels.
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hello Christine - then I will swop some of your plain Stuart for some of my uranium glass :)
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Hi Paul,
Nice to meet someone else who shares my addiction! As a collector I'm keen to ferret out anything obscure, and the Stratford service is obscure, while the rest of Stuart's production is fairly well known, so I restrict my collecting to plain pieces. They also tend (at least in New Zealand) to be found in the bric-a-brac shops so are good buying at $5-$10 (between 3 and 6 pounds).
Funny you should mention Woodchester, the only piece that breaks my rule is a blue bowl which has been decorated in the Woodchester pattern. Clear glass was definitely used for Stratford, I've posted some photos of my collection which include clear glass, and I have a copy of the Andy McConnell's book and have also studied that illustration of the catalogue extensively - my wish is to one day get at least a full sized version of that illustration but I don't know where to start going about inquiries (that said I'm on the message board now so that should help!).
I've figured out how to downsize my photos so here's some shots of my collection - I definitely have the smaller clear version of your vase, and have seen several examples of the larger green one here. I can't be 100% sure but I think Stratford made its way to New Zealand with immigrants rather than through importers, so seldom do they turn up - decorated Stuart was definitely imported in quantity.
Regards, Peter
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Hi Peter, I like Stuart stuff too, and have a small amount of it in varying shapes - marked and unmarked.
There are also a few topics on the board about the Stuart Stratford pattern. If you pop it into the Search box you'll see what I mean. :)
Some of my Stuart Stratford pieces:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,25768.0.html - large green footed bowl
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,34248.0.html - 3 bowls and underplates
and some of mine with some of Chris Harrison's pieces:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,9362.0.html - has a lot of interesting info in re Stratford and the similar range from Dema.
Nigel Benson is a mine of information about Stuart also and does have one of their catalogues (see earlier topic above) so may be able to add more too. ;)
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thanks for sharing your pictures Peter, and I could very easily walk away with your blue bowl with the 'Woodchester' leaf :mrgreen: I can't quite see from your picture, but does the blue bowl have 'Stratford' rings as well as the leaf motif? Addictions are o.k. by the way....... unless you have too many of them - and as you can see, overnight we have quadrupled the number of Stuart collectors - so perhaps there will be a book just for us one day ;).
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Hello Paul and Anne,
It is very nice to talk to other people who recognise the Stratford Service! And wouldn't a book all of our own be a wonderful thing, actually do either of you know if there is any such thing as a book specifically on Stuart and Sons? The only time I've seen them refererred to is in general terms alongside other manufacturers.
Paul, the blue bowl is a favorite because its the only blue piece I've got, and yes it does have the Stratford rings. One thing I really love about the coloured ware is that the colours are so perfect - infact I've got one thats slighty mauve and will eventually turn purple due to the magnesium in the glass reacting to sunlight - it'll take some time to do it but thats fine with me!
Thanks for the links Anne your collection is very nice too, and Chris's blue glasses are wonderful, and a very big thank you for the reference to Nigel Benson, it'll take me some time to read through his website - fascinating!
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Peter, I have a couple more pieces to share with you too. I found (yesterday!) a coloured Stratford jug which has a cut pattern, and a wineglass in the same colour glass with the same cut pattern on it, but it's not one of the Stratford glasses. Photos later when I've filed my current job. :)
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And today 4 clear Stratford wine goblets joined them! :rah: :rah: :rah: :rah:
Sadly the matching clear jug, which had been included with the glasses according to the price ticket, was sold separately so I missed that! :cry:
I have pics, of the coloured ones above and the clear ones found today, on the camera but I can't find where himself has hidden the lead to make the camera talk to my PC so I'm having to await his return to get the pics off the camera... drums fingers impatiently... :help:
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Whilst fretting at not being able to get my pics off the camera, I went to check on Replacements.com about the size of the glasses - they have very little in the Stratford pattern - the only wineglass shown is a drawing here: http://images.replacements.com/images/images5/crystal/S/stuart_stratford_water_goblet_P0000098776S0001T2.jpg which isn't the same as mine on the stem and doesn't look quite the same as those in Peter's Stuart 001 image above. Is it replacements.com which have it slightly wrong?
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I'm answering my own question here with the help of lorainek's blog and photo album Through the looking glass here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/14976327@N02/show/ which shows the exact same shape as my clear glasses - lorainek has them in green and turquoise... phew!!! :sun:
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All pics added now (and himself forgiven!) :)
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Hi Anne,
I think you have extremely well! That peach colour is new to me, the jug is obviously Stratford but the glasses must be from a different shape range - they look great though! And the wine glasses are a bonus too :) I'm heading out tomorrow morning to the Hutt Valley to hit up the thrift shops, about 10 of them, and if I'm lucky I'll find one peice - but at the same time on the internet there is one blue engraved footed bowl for $20 that if I'm lucky I'll be the proud new owner of!
I didn't know that replacements.com have Stratford....very tempting... ;)
Regards, Peter
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Hi Peter, I've not seen the peachy colour before either - it's rather nice! There is a small bruise to the jug rim which looks like it's been there a while, but I can live with that. :) I can't find any glasses to match the shape of the peachy one anywhere though. :cry:
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Hi Anne,
Comparing your jug to mine, yours is more nipped in just under the spout - but I think it suits the engraving better - and I reckon those are probably the only glasses meant to go with the jug but you never know - you might be lucky! I won the auction for the blue peice - not the greatest photo with the lisitng, but I'm confident that its blue Stuart :)
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I found a pair of these this morning, undoubtedly 'Stratford' and confirmed by the back stamp which reads RD. 681649, which is another of the March 1921 registrations by Stuart. But I'm just very surprised to find a piece of Stuart with 'machine acid etching', which was not something that I would have thought they dabbled in - unless of course they made the bodies and then sold them on to others who did the decoration. The other issue is........date wise what was the approximate cut-off period that signalled the end of machine acid etching (for the U.K.) - does anyone have a reliable date - could be wrong but this particular piece certainly looks post 1940 manufacture. I do in fact have a growing collection of machine acid etched pieces, and some are very attractive, so these are certainly worth having, althougn unsure whether this shape is a martini or champagne - height is about 3" - 76mm. :)
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:pb:of course if I only read the books that I bought...........................Hajdamach ,"British Glass 1800 - 1914" shows two very good pictures of the Stuart etching shops (taken in 1902), in which the women can be seen applying resist and others standing at the upright etching machines. The same book give over an entire chapter on the subject of acid etching - although in view of the date line the cut of time is 1914 ish, so not relevant to my pieces, I don't think.
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Hi Paul,
The more that I look at your photos the more intrigued I get! Its not like any style I've seen on Stratford before - I wonder if they dusted off some patterns they already had, then designed new ones a little later - it would have been an old fashioned pattern even in 1921 - but I agree with your instinct that its much later than that.
Meanwhile, down in New Zealand, we just had our local Bottle and Collectors Show in the weekend - its the first time in quite a while that I've pulled all my Stuart out of storage, there was a lot more than I expected so I decided to only use one example of every shape (if I had more than one) and for the display I used a piece of black velvet under the colourless glass, and white vinyl under the colours - I was really happy with the result, and people who were familiar with Stuart were saying they had no idea that such a range existed :)
Anne, when I was looking at the small posy vases I discovered that some were amber and some were peach! I always thought they were all amber, it wasn't until I studied them more closely that I could see the difference -
Cheers, Peter
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What appears to be a Stuart Stratford jampot here?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290593390026
Peter, that's a nice selection of Stuart you have there! :mrgreen:
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The other issue is........date wise what was the approximate cut-off period that signalled the end of machine acid etching (for the U.K.) - does anyone have a reliable date - could be wrong but this particular piece certainly looks post 1940 manufacture.
Almost certainly still in use in 1950s, but cheaper transfer and printing techniques would have largely replaced it for cheap glassware in general.
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Hi Anne,
Thats quite a handsome piece - I checked the shape guide reproduced in the Miller/McConnell book and sure enough its in there listed as a honey pot. I was basing my identification on what I could see of the lid before that, the angled spoon slot and flat knob - it certainly looked right! Are you going to have a punt? It dosen't seem like much money really.
Cheers, Peter
And thanks for the kind words, I'm quite proud of my collection!
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Hi Peter, no as I can't justify it in terms of what I'm collecting (trinket sets) and I am rapidly running out of space here! :ooh: As it is I have a box of common stuff which is going back to a local charity shop just so as I can regain some space.
I only pick up odd things that aren't trinket sets if I see them locally - things that might help answer a question, add to the knowledge pot, or provide a label or a mark... otherwise I have to leave them be or I'll end up sleeping in the flower beds whilst the glass fills the house. :thud:
I'm trying to stay away from buying on eBay altogether or I get carried away and then I'll be in bother with himself!!! :help:
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Hah! I know what you mean Anne, my terrible secret is a storage locker that is slowly filling up with bits and pieces which I keep bringing home like a magpie - I try to sell more than I buy on Trademe (NZ's version of Ebay) but some weeks I'm not so successful with that plan :)
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Peter, can you take a peek at this - I wondered if it might be Stuart Stratford too?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,42777.0.html
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Hi Anne, funnily enough I've got one of those bowls :) they aren't Stuart, but very, very similar - I'll pop a reply on the other thread
Regards, Peter
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Hello Peter S.
I live in Warragul about 100kms East of Melbourne, Australia. A while back I bought a Jug & 5 Iced Teas in A Woodchester pattern in Blue. First time I had ever seen it and I bought it off Ebay. Some 18 months later I was in Queensland and at a tiny town called KilKivan found another different style of jug and 6 tumblers. I did not buy them for the $65 asked because they were GLASS not crystal.
A month later a horrible thought occurred what if my blue one were actually glass - the stickers did not mention crystal. I had an iced tea that was crystal so it was easy to check. The blue stetting is GLASS not crystal and I missed the other set!
I wonder are your blue items glass rather than crystal?
Ross
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Just thought I'd pop these in to add to the post... ;D
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Very attractive Keith - good finds .......... so probably your one hundred and nineteenth shelf?? ;D ;D
Most of this thread seems now to be quite ancient - 2011 feels like almost half a lifetime ago, especially looking at the volume of viewings - but looking at Ross' comments re glass versus crystal, I wonder how many beginners or those unseasoned in the terminology of glass will find the wording that some pieces are glass but not crystal, or that crystal isn't glass - a tad confusing, especially as it all starts with silica. Sorry to be picky Ross ;D - and I'm sure I know what you mean - but this explanation for my old brain seems to lack some clarity.
Regret I don't recall investigating the constituent make up of Stuart glass, or looking at their labels, although no doubt I did have pieces with stickers, but have to assume from your comments that you have some labels that confirm a lead oxide content (your 'crystal'), and the remainder - which in theory would not have any label, that were non-lead pieces (your 'glass').
I notice that the Stuart label shown in this thread states STUART ENGLAND, so perhaps there is another Stuart label - which I can't at the moment seem to find anywhere on the Board's archive, or in my books - which indicates a lead content for some of their pieces.
Lead content varies from 'full lead crystal' (in the U.K. 34% usually) with around maximum 24% in much Continental material, which is known as 'half-lead. If you consider the mid C20 cut bowls from Stuart - those shown in the Benson/Hayhurst booklet for example - then it's reasonable to assume most or all of these have a high lead content, and this is supported by the comments in Stuart's own States directed ad for their 'Camelot' range, on page 290, of CH's '20th Century British Glass' - part of which reads ............. 'And with a lead content so high perhaps no other crystal made today ....... etc. etc.' Perhaps a little odd that seeing how proud they were of this process they didn't see fit to tell us what the percentage was. Lead oxide apparently makes the cutting easier, better refractive properties, in addition to making for a better 'ring', although many non-lead pieces will ring if they are of a substantial hollow shape.
But - the glass discussed in this thread is unrelated to those heavily cut and thick bowls, so we mustn't assume they are of the same make-up.
Apologies for the long-winded post - just that I'm confused when folk speak of crystal and glass without use of the word 'lead', leaving some uncertainty of meaning, and a small alteration in description would make the meaning clearer for some of us. 'Lead Crystal' or non-lead crystal.
Would be interested to hear details of lead oxide inclusion, or not, in the type of Stuart glass showing in this thread, and examples of their labels indicating specific lead content. :)
Anyway this makes up for the fact that I've not contributed for few days ;)
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Just thought I'd pop these in to add to the post... ;D
Oooh nice! I've not seen the olives design before yours. The cherries are lovely too. I have three grapefruit dishes with a fruit design on them...
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Hello Peter S.
I live in Warragul about 100kms East of Melbourne, Australia. A while back I bought a Jug & 5 Iced Teas in A Woodchester pattern in Blue. First time I had ever seen it and I bought it off Ebay. Some 18 months later I was in Queensland and at a tiny town called KilKivan found another different style of jug and 6 tumblers. I did not buy them for the $65 asked because they were GLASS not crystal.
A month later a horrible thought occurred what if my blue one were actually glass - the stickers did not mention crystal. I had an iced tea that was crystal so it was easy to check. The blue stetting is GLASS not crystal and I missed the other set!
I wonder are your blue items glass rather than crystal?
Ross
Ross, those are a gorgeous colour! Your glasses look to be a narrower version of my pink flared one further up this topic: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40522.msg226014.html#msg226014.
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The blue glass vessels are simply described
as Iced Tea as part of a Fruit Drink & Quencher Set in the catalog I have. Anne yours look very like Champagne glasses(only in certain ranges Carlingford, Beau, & Beaconsfield for example).
Perhaps I should have differentiated the two types of Stuart items. Blue "Glass" does not have the same density as the "Clear" version I have of these. I used GLASS to mean the lower density, and CRYSTAL to mean the normal higher density.
Here is a photo of the two I compared. As you can see same shape and size. However the clear "Grapevine" item weighs 233 grams, the blue "Woodchester" only 201 grams. The clear one weighs nearly 17% more than the blue. So I classified the clear as the normal Stuart Crystal, and the blue as Stuart Glass.
I was merely wondering if you compared the weights of a blue Stratford Dessert to another say Grapevine decorated version are they lighter and thus capable as being seen as glass as I have done.
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Hi Ross - hope you didn't think I was being critical in a serious sense :) ........... sometimes the words we use (all of us), can be less than clear in meaning to others, and crystal has always been one of those .......... in truth I'd like to see it confined to lead content glass, as in 'Lead Crystal' - and of course the use of simply the word glass might not convey very much, since all of what we collect is 'glass'. There appears to have been a habit of using 'crystal' to describe clear glass - whether there was a lead content, or not.
Regret I've no knowledge as to why the type of Stuart glass discussed in this thread should show a range of densities/weights - this might imply a lead content, or not - perhaps some silica has a greater density than others? Obviously, thickness will cause similar shaped pieces to differ in weight, but if as you're saying they are 'same shape and size', then it seems to rule out that suggestion, unless small thickness variations might be the culprit.
As a purely uneducated guess, I wouldn't have thought those pieces shown here were made with lead, but I could be very wrong - would be good if someone can comment on that. Unfortunately, I no longer have any pieces from this general range, but occurs to me to wonder if someone might put a u.v. torch over some of their clear pieces - I seem to remember something about lead showing up as grey/blue and a yellowish colour if it's absent - we had acres of discussion on this topic, but it was at least ten years ago.
............ and still looking for a Stuart label that says 'lead crystal' ;D