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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Anne E.B. on January 20, 2007, 07:08:41 PM

Title: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
Post by: Anne E.B. on January 20, 2007, 07:08:41 PM
I got really excited when I spotted this - because of the optical effect when held to the light ;D  My first thoughts were that it was may be antique - may be Czech (because of the optic pattern).  It certainly has some age wear on the base.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/glassie/miscel-26.jpg
View taken of inside http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/glassie/miscel-27.jpg
View of knop http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/glassie/miscel-28.jpg

Mod: Anne has kindly uploaded these photos to GlassGallery:  See also her later posting on this thread.

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6917
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6918
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6915
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6916

It has diamond cut facets with a row of scale cut ones at the top and at the bottom.  Tiny (tool?) marks can be seen on the curved tops of the scales - seen on the first picture. There are no seam marks.  Its quite large at just over 6" high, 3¾" diam. opening and very heavy at 580g.  If this is a drinking glass, then may be for ale?  It has a really nice sounding ring when tapped.  The glass is not yellow in appearance but quite clear.

It has a polished pontil mark where a spiral can be seen. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/glassie/miscel-29.jpg

I've been unable to find anything quite like it.  Any ideas about what it might be, maker and age would be much appreciated, in the meantime, I might just try it out... >:D

TIA ;)
Title: Re: Optic cut ale glass (?) Possibly Victorian ?
Post by: Bernard C on January 21, 2007, 07:36:50 PM
 
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Anne — What a wonderful find.   Yes, it's a rummer, but what a stunner.   It is of major importance.   I've never seen one before, nor had I ever suspected its existence.

 
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I had better explain.

On October 13, 1849, W.H., B. & J. Richardson of Wordsley near Stourbridge registered a design for a pressed glass tumbler with a slightly taller facetted pattern, see Hajdamach, British Glass 1800–1914, pl.302(iii).   This would have been the first pressed glass design registration by a British glassworks known to us today, had Richardson's not been beaten to it by just one day, by Thomas Gammon of Birmingham, who registered your design on October 12, 1849.

To my certain knowledge there were just two patterns made under this registration by Thomas Gammon, a pickle jar with matching lid (Hajdamach, pl.302(ii)), and a footed jelly.   The jelly has the lozenge sideways on fitting snugly under the bottom row of facets.   The lozenge has III in the "handle", then clockwise from the top, S, 12, 6 (parcel number), B.    You will probably find that there is a faint registration lozenge in the same position on your rummer, but it could be unmarked, or it is just possible that it carries a different lozenge, as Thomas Gammon registered other designs around the time.   Hajdamach, pl.302(i) is a tumbler in a similar pattern.

Of course, only the top was pressed.   As the design finishes at the top of the facets, where there is a clear mould line (explaining the roughness at this point), the rim must have been vertical when moulded (otherwise it would have been impossible to remove the glass from the mould), and only flared after the addition of the hand-made stem and foot, and the subsequent transfer to a pontil rod.    I can't remember whether the main part of the mould was 2- or 3-sided.   On some early (1860s–70s) pressed rummers you get anomolies like eight pattern repeats split asymmetrically 2-3-3 around a 3-sided mould, but I don't think this is one of those.

Hajdamach's photograph was first published in the Glass Circle's Strange & Rare in 1987.   There is some confusing text in this book on this subject, and I am convinced that Hajdamach interpreted the evidence as I have done above, as he just omitted the confusing bits.   While Hajdamach is a superb reference, you will find that the book is also a model of diplomacy, with anything controversial like this omitted.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Optic cut ale glass (?) Possibly Victorian ?
Post by: Bernard C on January 22, 2007, 07:35:32 AM
Anne — Further musings.

Note that the complex and mature nature of the pickle jar and your rummer shows that Thomas Gammon was a glass house of considerable experience.   In both cases, press-moulding was used simply to provide an ornamental pattern and basic shape, as an alternative to hand-blowing using dip and shape moulds or hand-blowing with cutting.   There was still considerable hand work needed to complete and finish the product.   Press-moulding of this type became quite widely used in British glass houses, and survived, particularly in the Manchester glassworks, until the early years of the 20th century.

It was around a quarter of a century after Thomas Gammon's historic registration that major advances in press-moulding technology were introduced to British glassworks, almost completely eliminating the need for additional hand working, most notably in NE England by Sowerby, Davidson, Greener, and Moore.

See Hajdamach's chapter on pressed glass for more detailed information, including comparison with the generally earlier advances in press-moulding technology in the USA.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Optic cut ale glass (?) Possibly Victorian ?
Post by: Anne E.B. on January 22, 2007, 08:37:13 PM
Bravo Bernard 8)  I'd hoped you would spot my query because I just knew if anyone could help, you would be the one :)

I'm amazed at the information you have given and delighted know that it is a significant find.  Does this mean that it is, what amounts to a museum piece?  Is there anything I should do with it....?  I haven't read the books by Hajdamach that you refer to, but will try to get my hands on copies.  This type of glass isn't my usual cup of tea, but this piece just jumped out at me when I spotted it on Saturday in the Salvation Army Shop. 

I've been unable to find a lozenge so far, but will have a real good look tomorrow in good daylight using a lens and will report back.

Many thanks once again - and much respect 8)
Anne

Christine - I think I'll wrap it in cottonwool for the time being ;D
Title: Re: Optic cut ale glass (?) Possibly Victorian ?
Post by: Anne E.B. on January 24, 2007, 03:43:58 PM
Bernard, try as I may, I've been unable to find any markings at all.  My OH and son were unable to either.
Title: Re: Optic cut ale glass (?) Possibly Victorian ?
Post by: Bernard C on January 25, 2007, 10:01:29 AM
Anne — It doesn't surprise me at all that you couldn't find a registration lozenge.   Had you found one, it would have been found on other examples, and be well known.   Also thanks for your earlier kind remarks, but I can assure you that anyone who is reasonably familiar with English Victorian table glass would have told you the same;  I just happened to be the first to respond.

Your rummer is important because:
  • With the possibility of tumblers with ground and polished pontil marks being cut-down broken rummers, reducing their value as evidence, it changes the status of the Thomas Gammon registration from two items, a pickle jar and jelly glass, to a suite of tableware.
  • It also raises the likelihood of other unmarked items in the suite which have yet to be found and identified.
  • This would be the first registered suite of English pressed tableware, not just by a day, but by years.
  • With the mould lines, all of which are zigzags, all hidden in the decoration, it is evidence of a level of sophistication of mould-making that brings into question the traditional view that English glass houses were considerably behind their American competitors in pressed glass technology.   This view may have arisen from lack of substantive evidence about the early years of pressed glass here in Britain.   I have long held the view that suppliers of raw materials, machinery, &c., spread such information worldwide very quickly indeed;  it was, and still is, a core element of supplier sales and marketing strategy.
  • Your rummer is the first and only example known to me of a fully attributed handmade Thomas Gammon stem and foot.

  • Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Connie on January 25, 2007, 10:24:31 AM
    I have been following this thread with interest because when Anne first posted I immediately recognized the pattern on the bowl as a popular American pattern but knew from the stem it wasn't American.

    In the U.S., the pattern on the bowl is known as Georgian and it was made by all the major Elegant Glass factories - Fenton, Cambridge, Paden City, and later (or more cheaply) Anchor Hocking.

    My everday glasses are Fenton Georgian in a deep ruby red from the 1930s.
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Frank on January 25, 2007, 10:36:30 AM
    Which may contribute to the difficulty in finding other examples of Gammon, can you add an image for comparison please Connie.
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Connie on January 25, 2007, 10:53:00 AM
    Here is a picture of a Paden City Georgian goblet or high sherbet (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r269/Connie06_photos/fgeorgob1.jpg)  You can't see the pattern very well on it because it is in a small area.

    Here is a Fenton Georgian small whiskey tumbler (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r269/Connie06_photos/fgtumb1.jpg)

    I will have to dig some more through my hard drive to find the picture of my everday glasses.  They are Fenton Ruby tall tumblers.  The tumblers are much more common than other pieces and all the factories that made this pattern made them.  They are extremely hard to differentiate.  You need to know if the are stacking or non-stacking, ground rims or not, exact height meassurements, etc.
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: David E on January 25, 2007, 02:14:03 PM
    Just a slight query, Bernard.

    I'm looking at Glassmakers of Stourbridge & Dudley 1612-2002, Jason Ellis [Xlibris Corp.] and he mentions a William Gammon, glass manufacturer of Aston, near Birmingham, in reference to a date before 1850. Of course, this could be a relation of Thomas, but I thought I'd mention this.

    Edit: p.424
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Bernard C on January 25, 2007, 04:00:40 PM
    David — Thanks for looking.    I can't really add to your discovery.

    Connie — The W.H., B. & J. Richardson pattern of October 13, 1849 is also a vertically orientated lozenge pattern like your American "Georgian" pattern.   Unmarked items in this pattern are quite frequently found here, so it would not surprise me at all if several British glass houses made it, in pressed and cut forms.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Bernard C on January 30, 2007, 08:53:41 AM
    Anne, Connie et al — I've found an early example of a horizontally orientated cut pattern like that on your rummer, Anne.   This is a wine glass, pattern No. 366, from the 1846 cut glass catalogue of Percival, Yates & Vickers of Manchester.   It has a tall blank rim above the three interlocking rows of slice cuts, which looks as if it may have been lightly engraved with a design like fruiting vine (it was too early to be acid-etched;  PV started using acid-etched decoration some years later.)    This cut pattern with an intaglio engraved fruiting vine design around the rim was one of the staples of John Walsh Walsh, certainly up to about 1940, and may have been made by them up to their demise in 1951.   Other patterns in the 1846 PV catalogue show engraved decoration of fruiting vine, ivy, rambling roses, and, possibly, hops.

    So we have here a very long-lived pattern, probably dating from earlier in the 19th Century, or even earlier.  The novelty of the Gammon registration was probably its transfer to press-moulded manufacture, but this can only be confirmed by checking the archives at Kew.

    Here are the published sources I have used, in date of publication order:
  • Percival Vickers:  Yates, Barbara, The Glasswares of Percival Vickers & Co. Ltd., Jersey Street, Manchester, 1844–1914, in Glass Association Journal Volume 2, 1987.
  • Gammon pickle photograph + text:  The Glass Circle, Strange & Rare — 50th Anniversary Exhibition of The Glass Circle, 1987.
  • Gammon & Richardson registrations:  Thompson, Jenny, The Identification of English Pressed Glass 1842–1908, 1989.
  • Early pressed glass history & Gammon pickle photograph:  Hajdamach, Charles R., British Glass 1800–1914, 1991.
  • More details of the Richardson registration:  Thompson, Jenny, A Supplement to the Identification of English Pressed Glass 1842–1908, 1993.
  • Walsh fruiting vine:  Reynolds, Eric, The Glass of John Walsh Walsh 1850–1951, 1999.

  • Connie — Re the US Georgian pattern (Georgian over here means cascading cubes like Fostoria American).   W.H., B. & J. Richardson registered the design for a decanter in this pattern on 11 January 1851, illustrated in the Thompson supplement.   It looks identical to a decanter shown in the 1846 PV cut catalogue.   Thomas Percival was the nephew of Thomas Webb Snr, in Stourbridge, just down the road from the Richardsons.   If you are going to steal someone else's design, at least make sure they are a long way away, the width of the Atlantic Ocean, for example.   Not wise with a powerful uncle just a few yards down the road.   I wonder what happened.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Sid on January 31, 2007, 04:14:09 AM
    Hello:

    In my opinion, there is only a superficial resemblence between the Georgian pattern elements and those of the Rummer that this discussion is about.  The rummer main pattern element is a horizontal diamond. The main pattern element in Georgian is the hexagonal honeycomb shape with the top row rounded off.  The EAPG folks generically call this latter pattern Honeycomb, the manufacturers often called it Cincinnati or New York.  There are examples of honeycomb which predate EAPG where the pattern is cut not pressed. The honeycomb pattern or variations have been pretty well in continuous production from the 1850s to the present day.

    Sid
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Bernard C on January 31, 2007, 09:56:17 AM
    Sid — Grateful thanks for highlighting and resolving the Georgian misconception.   All the English patterns mentioned in this topic have been horizontal or vertical interlocking diamonds.

    I will take the opportunity to emphasize that the Strange & Rare photograph of the Gammon pickle jar and two tumblers was captioned two years before Thompson was published, so the lists of registered designs were not then available, and interpreting class III (glass) registration lozenges was much more difficult.    Added to that, there is the possibility that the photograph may have been reversed, a problem found in other glass publications (Jackson, Whitefriars, plate 35 is a reasonably well-known example).   The Richardson material in my first reply does not depend on the pattern of the tumbler, nor on which of the two tumblers it was, just that it was pressed and carried the Richardson registration lozenge.

    I hope that makes some sense!

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Anne E.B. on May 10, 2007, 01:49:27 PM
    http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6917
    http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6918
    http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6915
    http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6916

    Permanent images now in Glass Gallery.  ;)

    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: Bernard C on May 10, 2007, 02:34:24 PM
    See http://www.great-glass.co.uk/index.htm — photo library — pressed glass (English) — for an image of the Thomas Gammon jelly.

    Please avoid posting a direct link as it would bypass the sales and marketing side of the website, which would be unfair on the proprietors of this most useful resource.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Optic pressed ale glass = (Rummer) Thomas Gammon (Important)
    Post by: David E on May 10, 2007, 03:24:37 PM
    The problem I always find with Great-Glass is that the homepage Applets always contrive to crash my browser... so from my own PoV a direct link is preferred. However...

    I just got back from Himley Hall and managed to speak to Roger Dodsworth about this rummer. I have now passed on this link so hopefully he will sign up and offer his expertise. Busy man, though!