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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Gary on October 01, 2011, 11:52:56 AM

Title: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on October 01, 2011, 11:52:56 AM
I wonder about the authenticity of this lot. If true, a truly major find.
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/bourne-end-auction-room
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 01, 2011, 12:31:13 PM
Link fails. But found here http://www.bourneendauctionrooms.co.uk/2011/10/catalogue.htm

I would regard this with the greatest suspicion as Paul was adamant such things were never written down and kept solely and jealously in the personal knowledge of family members only., The only exception to this is the formula of Paul Ysart's Harland batch which was mixed for him by Moncrieff and this remains in the personal possession of the MD at that time who shared it with no-one.

A substantial number of such documents have circulated over the years and all were traced back to a certain Perth based dealer, who normally bundles such documents with genuine ephemera to give them authenticity. Whenever asked for provenance on such papers he backed out of the sale or further discussion. I note also labelled miniatures are included in the collection."include a yellow whorled vase with tints of white and pin, 42 MF x 1 and a turquoise green flared vase with a clear and aventurine glass rim, OOGC x 1" which sounds like similar to those in the other recent lot.

Do not be surprised to find other such ephemera, a book containing the colour formulas, several sets of 'Monart' moulds, notebooks purported to be Vasart, several sets of Paul Ysart's tools (despite the well documented purchase of the real tools.) all faked. At least one of these is probably documented on this board.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: David E on October 01, 2011, 01:29:47 PM
Link is this, I think:
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/bourne-end-auction-rooms/catalogue-id-2842264/lot-12253589
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 01, 2011, 03:46:49 PM
I am planning to attend the auction (for a couple of py weights that I might try for), and will try to view on Tuesday, the day before the sale. I'll take a camera and see what photos I can get of some of those Monart lots.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on October 01, 2011, 04:55:58 PM
In that lot there is what has been described as a Monart 1927 catalogue and price list, the following image is from the Monart archives held at Perth museum. I took this photo whilst doing a days research into the Monart archives. Hopefully this will help you Kevin or any other member who can view th lot.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 01, 2011, 06:07:52 PM
Catalogue is likely genuine, last one I know of sold around 400 pounds. Price list probably OK, formulae not a chance.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: nigel benson on October 03, 2011, 11:33:50 AM

Assuming that we're thinking of the same lot Frank, the catalogue that sold for some £400 was not on its own, since it had photos and ther ephemera included.

Nigel
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 03, 2011, 12:39:48 PM
Good to see a picture. I still go with fake on the formulae, Intriguing that price lists have the Glass logo... I would have expected the 1927 catalogue to be the Ware logo... but not showing there. If it is Glass, it gives a nice early date for the Glass logo - mind you I guess the price lists do that!. Will it contain more than the 4 pages of the first catalogue? Shown here http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Moncat1P1.htm

First use of Glass logo was previously given as c1930. 1927 is a very intriguing bit of data.

See label G1 here http://www.ysartglass.com/BaseLabel/Labels.htm
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 04, 2011, 05:29:12 PM
A couple of snippets from the auction preview ...

I can confirm that the Price List details in the 1927 Monart Ware Catalogue are identical to the part that Gary showed in the photo taken at Perth Museum. And yes, that catalogue has 4 pages covering shapes A through ZC. The two copies of the Monart Glass Catalogues are identical, each with an Introduction page titled "Monart Glass", and 12 pages (printed double-sided) covering shapes A through ZE. The batch formulae are simply single sheets with text using a typewriter.

The Lot of Seven Miniature vases have four with labels which are shown below.

As far I could tell there were no items amongst whole Monart selection of Lots that had a dubious label, although a couple of labels (one being in the image below) did seem remarkably clean considering they were applied to an essentially flat base.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 04, 2011, 05:37:37 PM
And ...

Intriguing that price lists have the Glass logo... I would have expected the 1927 catalogue to be the Ware logo....
The 1927 Catalogue and Price List do have the Monart Ware Logo throughout.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on October 04, 2011, 06:50:06 PM
There seems do be some discrepancies with labels ie the order of colour code and size code are the opposite way round. On all pre war Monart labels the size code comes first then shape code then colour code, on these ones the colour code is first then shape code then size code. Also I believe at least two of the colour codes are wrong, colour code 55 is a blue and white paisley shawl and the colour code 00 am sure was never a Monart colour code number.
Gary        
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 04, 2011, 07:07:27 PM
labels and the writing look spot on to me, dont know why there in different order than most, , maybe someone else got the job for a while of doing the labels, as for colour code 00 cant see why it shouldnt exist, theres always something new to learn about Ysart glass everyday,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 04, 2011, 07:21:22 PM
oh also colour code 55 is not blue and white paisley shawl, colour code 55c is, so i assume that the c after the code may mean its different from code 55, i assume that its the same idea as when they done special sizes they put put an extra letter or sign after size code,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 04, 2011, 07:36:21 PM
Thanks Kevin, based on that we can now change the date on the G labels to c1927 and all those with Ware labels can be reasonably sure their pieces are pre 1927. As all labelling was done by one person it is unlikely the Ware labels continued in use. These catalogues can also be regarded as a second edition that was not know to me.

Off centre is not a problem and if a flat bottom label is pristine, I would expect the base to be wear free.

I do find 00 odd but nothing that can be said although we can consider that perhaps it was simply a colour without a code.

The formula was dated 1925 and can be easily checked as I and the museum will have plenty of typing examples, Moncrieff would not be awash with typewriters. The Monax 'analysis' makes little sense as Moncrieff would know the formula, why bother to analyse it! Unless it is an analysis of the American Monax glass which was the subject of litigation, not mention in documents I have seen though. Still the fact remains that this 'Monart' formula exists when PY stated with absolute certainty that it was never written down. While the author of this piece would have had assistance from a glassmaker we unfortunately have no means of checking authenticity of contents and would at best be able to show if it was probably not one of Moncrieff's typewriters. Combined with the fact that a certain person is known to have forged a variety of documents of this ilk, including but not always on genuine Moncrieff stationery. This item must be regarded with the greatest suspicion.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 04, 2011, 07:55:35 PM
Interesting comments about the label coding order. I did not go that deeply into my review of the items. There is also at least one other label with that order of coding, "10.UB.X1" as stated in the auction description for Lot 67 (five other miniatures).

For the items with the four labels I photographed, the shapes do tie in with the codes, with allowances for shape variations of course.

I would have photographed all the Monart stuff but after getting images of the Lamp (which has an uncoded Monart Glass label) the camera battery died - and the spare died as soon as I turned the camera back on!!

Anyway, I am interested in three weights, and if I get them with some money left over (they will not be cheap as chips), I might think about the Catalogues. :)
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Andy on October 04, 2011, 08:37:30 PM
Hi, its my local auction rooms, i go every week for a nose around. I saw these and emailed Frank, not knowing about
this thread. Kevin, i must have been just after you, i wondered why most of the glass was upside down! Now ive seen
your photos ;D
I took some photos of the formula, and the catalogues, and have emaild to Frank.
I will go along and see what happens, not really thinking of bidding unless they go for silly prices.
Kevin, i will look out for you, but i dont want to bid against you, i will not bid for any PWs.
Cheers
Andy

(pic of me on bench outside IOW Glass, look out for me  :thup:  )
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on October 04, 2011, 08:45:22 PM
I have a bowl with the colour code of 55 and is blue and white paisley shawl coloured in blue and white with a blue inner.
In the "Ian Turner Collection of Monart Glass" lot 9 sold at Christies there is a vase catalogued with the colour code 55. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a-vii-e-55-vase/4149195/lot/lot_details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4149195&sid=17245e69-8685-442e-adfd-c54f0ac95a54
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 04, 2011, 09:03:41 PM
I have a bowl with the colour code of 55 and is blue and white paisley shawl coloured in blue and white with a blue inner.
In the "Ian Turner Collection of Monart Glass" lot 9 sold at Christies there is a vase catalogued with the colour code 55. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a-vii-e-55-vase/4149195/lot/lot_details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4149195&sid=17245e69-8685-442e-adfd-c54f0ac95a54

the picture you show is colour code 55c, is this your bowl?? because i can see a letter c at the end, also the one at christies may have been 55c  but they may have omitted the c
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: nigel benson on October 04, 2011, 09:41:51 PM
I'll see you there then Kevin and Andy  ;) :)

Nigel
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 04, 2011, 09:54:17 PM
and al see you all there, should be fun, bring plenty cash guys :smg:
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 05, 2011, 11:40:23 AM
And a very enjoyable auction it was for lots of folk - or still is - since I am currently sitting at home and the end of the auction is probably an hour away as I type. :)
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 05, 2011, 12:35:17 PM
how did you get on Kevin, did you get all your weights you were after,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 05, 2011, 12:36:22 PM
catalogues made £500 , lamp £500,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 05, 2011, 12:46:05 PM
55b was also a Blue Paisley shawl, so maybe those labels with prefixed numbering is something wrong. 55a was yet another minor variation of blue paisley

http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Colours099.htm

Note also the substantial difference between 42 and 42b

Do we know who bought the catalogues?
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 05, 2011, 01:09:22 PM
55b was also a Blue Paisley shawl, so maybe those labels with prefixed numbering is something wrong. 55a was yet another minor variation of blue paisley

http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Colours099.htm

Note also the substantial difference between 42 and 42b

Do we know who bought the catalogues?

im not disputing that 55 isnt blue and white paisley shawl , just that the picture showing has a letter c at the end, wonder how many other letter codes they used on the 55,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Andy on October 05, 2011, 04:12:47 PM
Good fun at the auction. I didnt get my wallet open , but nice to see the Monart fans getting excited.
Very nice to meet Kevin and Nigel.
Andy

ps i believe the Powell wine glasses lot 99 made over £400  :o
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 05, 2011, 04:14:37 PM
anyone know what the pieces of monart made
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Andy on October 05, 2011, 04:21:17 PM
The auction rooms will post results on website in a few days, but from my notes....
most within estimates.
lot 65 £170  . lot 66 £140 . lot 67 £160. lot 68 280  . lot 69 150 . lot 70 140 . lot 71 i dont think sold.
lot 72 200 . lot 73 140 lot 74 140. lot 75 the lamp 500.

Andy
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 05, 2011, 04:24:35 PM
ok thanks
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 05, 2011, 04:29:59 PM
Assuming that we're thinking of the same lot Frank, the catalogue that sold for some £400 was not on its own, since it had photos and ther ephemera included.

Nigel
in the turner collection the second last lot was catalogues( one was pictured but in description it mentions two am sure) and the last lot was 6 photos, though this might not be the catalogue that you guys are meaning :ho:
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 05, 2011, 10:31:13 PM
how did you get on Kevin, did you get all your weights you were after,
No! But I still spent enough money to stop me buying food for the next three months. ;D
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 05, 2011, 10:48:32 PM
No! But I still spent enough money to stop me buying food for the next three months. ;D
hahaha well least you got some,  :smg:
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: nigel benson on October 06, 2011, 09:44:58 AM
Hiya,

I managed to buy one (!!!!) of the Monart lots, the rest being about right for what they were IMHO. Just missed them catalogues though.........arrrrgggggh!!

Anyway, I had a very enjoyable phone call from that young Gary (Millarart) last night.

Amongst other things we discussed the labels. Firstly, I felt that the Monart was all post war. Given that that was the case, then this may explain the unusual coding. My thought was the codes might have been swapped over because they used the last of the original enamels from the pre war era. Knowing that new enamels were having to be sourced elsewhere they could have taken this into account and coded the labels accordingly. Then, as we know, when the new enamels were used, no colour code was put on the label.

Just thought, this would also have the added advantage for Paul of differentiating between his work and the pre war items.

Just an hypothesis, that might be worth discussion.

As for the formulas, given the provenance, I believe that they are correct as formula. The Monax will need Frank's thoughts, but there is no mention of an attribution on the longer formula, so it could have come from any glass works, so would still have historic value - if only the source could be proved ;) :)

Good to see Andy and Kevin there :) Shame about them phones though.........................!!!

Nigel
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 06, 2011, 11:02:38 AM
hahaha god damm phones lol :sm:,
i have to say nigel and myself had a good lenghty conversation covering many subjects of monart glass, and between us i think we came up with a few ideas that seemed to be practical and make sense, there was also some humour thrown into the conversation which had us both giggling away, i think a few of the things we spoke about needs to be brought out into the open for input from others, which im sure Nigel will agree with, so something to pass these early dark and cold evenings ahead of us maybe, oh and on the subject of the formulas i dont know why the auction house put on the listing that one was for Monart glass formula , when there is no mention on the letters anything about Monart, anyway time and some research will tell  :X: (maybe), sounds like Nigel was the underbidder on the catalogues, Mmmmmmmm wonder who the winning bidder could have been ::) ::) ::) ::), they may have been winning bidder on that lovely post war mushroom lamp too  ::) ::) ::) ::) :thup:
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 06, 2011, 11:31:49 AM
Very odd on that formula was the 'London Office'
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 06, 2011, 11:45:37 AM
Very odd on that formula was the 'London Office'
Nigel your thoughts on this please^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  :help:
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: nigel benson on October 06, 2011, 01:32:30 PM

OK, in case anyone doesn't know the provenance of the catalogues and the envelope containing the two pages of formula I shall explain.

The vendor's father worked for Royal Worcester as an Area Manager. It is believed that they took over the London office representing Monart/Moncrieff and that these documents came from that office. We do not know any more detail at this stage, nor apparently do the auctioneers.

Assuming that the story is accurate, then it could explain "The London Office".

It shouldn't be impossible to check whether both companies used the same address. For instance, there will be records held at Kew, which I can check out in the fullness of time (things are busy at this time of year, so I'm not sure when I'm next going).

There is another idea for checking which I will look into and get back to you on.

Nigel




Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 06, 2011, 02:11:24 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Thanks Nigel for your response in helping to clarify this matter and look forward to the findings , ps Nigel ive sent you my details via email mate
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 06, 2011, 09:09:45 PM
PG for 1931 list no London agent for Moncrieff. Royal Worcester were at 8 St Andrew street EC4 and list no representations in their entry... Makes little sense as Moncrieff's market was in engineering and most of their overseas agents were indeed in the engineering trade. With Liberty as about the only London outlet... again not much value in an agent. No mention on any Moncrieff papers I have about a London office.

PG for 1910 Moncrieff do not even list themselves and only included an entry for their Tay Glass Works under Tomey & Son. Royal Worcester showroom same address as 1931

PG 1889 neither Moncrieff nor Tomey listed... RW same London address
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on October 07, 2011, 10:04:07 PM
Whilst not doubting the authenticity of any lots being Monart pieces or indeed the labels being genuine Monart manufactured labels, my problem is with the order of size code, shape code and colour code that are on all of the labels that the vendor had for sale at this auction. There a number of reasons why I have reservations with the labels.

1 The accepted fact to date, that only pre war Monart labels (Monart Ware or Monart Glass) had the coding in the sequence of size code, shape code and then colour code and post war labels (Monart Glass) only had the shape code then size code.

2 The use of 00 as a colour code on the GC shaped does not ring true, the two labels I have seen with a colour code below ten where written as 4 and 6 not as 04 and 06. Not that I am certain on this, the GC vase appears to be the colour scheme of green rising to clear and gold aventurine, which would make it colour code 428.

3 All of a sudden one vendor has on his Monart pieces with labels, this unusual sequence of coding. This is to much a coincidence that one collector would have only this type label and no “normal” Monart labels.

4 Paul Ysart Monart Paperweights with labels are fairly rare; this vendor had one on every paperweight.

5 There was a blank label on the post war mushroom lamp, could it be whoever wrote the other labels did not know the shape code or size code therefore decided to leave it blank.

This leads me to believe at some point someone has obtained genuine blank Monart labels and added them to the pieces of Monart though albeit with the wrong coding sequence.
There are blank Monart Glass labels in the Perth museum Monart archives, which were donated by I Turner who in turn got them from Betty Reid (dispatch clerk at Moncrieff’s) along with catalogues price list and other ephemera. As some genuine Monart catalogues and price list have turned up it is not inconceivable that some blank labels got out and have been added to pieces at a later date.
These are my personal assumptions and in no way am I implying the vendor of any wrongdoing or knowledge of any wrongdoing.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: nigel benson on October 08, 2011, 10:21:18 AM

A very carefully worded and thought out set of observations Gary (complement  :)), which of course have merit as a possible explanation for the coding on the labels. I think we have presented each end of the spectrum.

Sadly, I doubt whether either will be provable. Still worth persuing though  :)

Nigel
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 08, 2011, 10:34:09 AM
I agree with you Gary. I had not realised that all were coded oddly, one or two is a coincidence the whole collection is plain wrong! Not to mention statistically impossible. There were quite a few blank labels floating around and if a collector decided to label up his collection there would be nothing to stop him. As the labelling post-war was done by Betty Reid (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:betty-reid-dispatch-clerk-john-moncrieff-ltd&catid=15:scottish-glass-people&Itemid=16) it is probable that pre-war all labelling was done by one person too. It is not realistic to expect that the only departures from standard sequence ended up in one collection.

Note also Kevin's earlier remark about label condition on a flat base.

Final confirmation would be identifying a post-war piece in that collection with the colour codes. (see My Last Assumption (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147:my-last-assumption-dating-monart&catid=24:john-moncrieff-limited&Itemid=13))Perhaps a reason the colour codes were not used post-war was that Betty did not know them, as they had not been written down.

Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: nigel benson on October 08, 2011, 11:37:51 AM

I take all the points you make Frank, but find this one a tad problematic:

Quote
Perhaps a reason the colour codes were not used post-war was that Betty did not know them, as they had not been written down.

My observation would be that it would be difficult (although not impossible) for someone to remember all the colour codes, especially if used sporadically over a protracted period of time. More likely was the introduction of new enamels that did not tally with those used pre war IMHO; therefore the colour code would necessarily be dropped.

Nigel
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 08, 2011, 12:49:13 PM
... 3 All of a sudden one vendor has on his Monart pieces with labels, this unusual sequence of coding. This is to much a coincidence that one collector would have only this type label and no “normal” Monart labels.
I thought there were some items with "normal" labels - such as one of the items in Lot 65, and one of the pieces in Lot 70 (I have not checked for others).

Quote
... 4 Paul Ysart Monart Paperweights with labels are fairly rare; this vendor had one on every paperweight. ...
I thought there were weights without a label (but perhaps some had only a remnant of a very worn one) - Lot78, Lot 80, and one item in Lot 81.
(Note that Lot 85 was a surface decorated weight with modern Murano canes so its lack of a label does not count in the context of Monart items.)

Although Monart labels are not very common on PY weights, there are plenty of examples scattered amongst various collections. I have four examples and most of the "IEA" weights I have seen do have a Monart label. So excluding the three "IEA" weights in the sale, I think there were 5 out of 8 that had a label. This could be the result of somebody able to afford to be more selective in their purchase of PY weights.

But please also see my next post.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on October 08, 2011, 01:01:36 PM
I bought the "Fish in Basket" weight. It has a Monart Glass label. Under uv light, it does not fluoresce the same as all of my other Monart-period py weights! This could be an example of a label fallen off something else and incorrectly re-attached to the Fish weight. Or it might suggest that there are some Monart-period weights that were made with a glass mix that simply does not fluoresce the same as most most others. Or it might be, as Gary has said, that the label was added by somebody at much later date.

I am still pondering this, along with other features of the weight, and also another weight I have that has a feature that does not seem to match "normal theories". I do not want to make any further comment at this time as it could lead to innacurate assumptions.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 08, 2011, 04:10:08 PM
I take all the points you make Frank, but find this one a tad problematic:

My observation would be that it would be difficult (although not impossible) for someone to remember all the colour codes, especially if used sporadically over a protracted period of time. More likely was the introduction of new enamels that did not tally with those used pre war IMHO; therefore the colour code would necessarily be dropped.

Nigel

Weird no longer includes the subquote...

That is the conventional tale given and could be true apart from many colour schemes and that the original enamels were once again available.

But the memory thing I do buy and the coincidence that post-war Betty did the labelling - memory interruption - is a coincidence. And coincidences always raise the need to review things. Unfortunately no-one alive that can solve such matters,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 08, 2011, 04:42:53 PM
MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm too many thing not adding up here, label codes in wrong order, label colour codes wrong, formulas, paperweights not coming up as should or as you expect under uv, a fishy weight indeed??? catalogues seem to be the genuine thing , only difference between the matching two compared to others seen are the little black picture of the vase on the covers are diffferent , but they are the same as one of the two pictures of vases on the front of the Monart Ware catalogue so could these two Monart Glass catalogues been the first batch to have been made when the Monart Glass ones first came out ?????,  ok back to labels and codes i note that the four vases with the labels on them all have the same size code do we know if they match up to the vases  actual size codes on the ysart glass site for the actual size of each induvidual vase,(havent had time to jump back to ysart glass sites monart shape and size section to check) also the writing / ink looks pretty good and monartish lol, Gary you have a lot of pics of labels and their written codes, worth comparing letters and numbers from these against the way the numbers and letters on these four labels are written, i had a little compare of the way the number 5"s was written on the vase with the  colour code 55 on it to the picture Gary put up of the paisley shawl bowls label with the colour code 55 on it, and i have to say the the 5"s all look like they have been written by the same hand, they way they are finnished at the tops with a little flick all matches to me, so if you can compare the way the other numbers and letters on the four labels are written against numbers and letters the same but on labels you know are 100% correct then surely this will tell us if they have been written by another hand than the one that they should have been done by, we all have our own way of writing letters and numbers a bit like fingerprints i suppose, Sherlock time to get on this case
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 08, 2011, 09:44:58 PM
Numbers are easy to copy and it is likely Indian ink so easy to duplicate. With all the other questions I wonder if this collector was a customer of J who was always happy to provide goods to match what the customer requested...
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 08, 2011, 11:15:33 PM
well next question i ask is if they went to all the trouble of copying handwriting to match Monarts and also put on the correct shape and size code why wouldnt they put the correct colour codes in and also write the codes in the proper order, just a thought
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 08, 2011, 11:42:43 PM
If it was J and he was already working on the colour code book at the same time he would have matched colour codes it to that. He certainly had some genuine labels, showed them to me.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on October 09, 2011, 03:08:19 PM
"i note that the four vases with the labels on them all have the same size code do we know if they match up to the vases  actual size codes on the ysart glass site for the actual size of each individual vase" quote from Millarart.
I looked through the Monart catalogues on the Ysart Glass web site and the Ysart Glass book.
The N shape has no size code X1, the nearest is X and that is 5 inches tall
The SA shape has a size code X1 and is 3 inches tall.
The GC shape has no size code X1 in the original Monart catalogue, the nearest size code is V11 and is 6 3/4 inches tall. In the Ysart Glass web site the GC shape has a size code X1 and is 3 inches tall.
The MF shape has no size code X1 in the original Monart catalogue, the nearest is V11 and is 8 1/2 inches tall.In the Ysart Glass web site the  smallest MF shape is 8 inches.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on October 09, 2011, 05:17:44 PM
Just seen this on eBay, this is one of the lots from the auction. This one also has the odd coding sequence and has the same size code as the others ie X1.
The ZK shape has no size code X1, the nearest is 1X and that is 5 inches in diameter.
This ZK shape for sale is 5 inches in diameter.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_Auction=1&_nkw=monart&_dmpt=UK_Art_Glass
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 09, 2011, 05:57:15 PM
Weird describes it as 'Rare'  :D lowering the tone of the sale, but neglects the interesting provenance that would enhance saleability.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 11, 2011, 04:01:57 PM
catalogues and the FORMULA arrived today, after giving the formula a good examanation i decided the only way to find out if it was Monarts most kept secret was to give it a try, so after converting my 8x6 garden shed into a clone of Moncrieff works, after following the formula to the last grain of sand i was ready to proceed, i couldnt wait to see the outcome , after hours upon hours working in sweltering heat and picking a shape of a piece i already had in my collection to make it easier for me, the end result just minutes away, the truth about to be revealed, was it the Monart formula or wasnt it, finally the cooling down period was over , the end result is below, so  is it monarts formula you decide . :24: personaly i think it looks more monart than pyrex
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on October 11, 2011, 06:52:05 PM
I have a suitable photo of the formula, so when I find my Moncrieff archive  :huh: so far found a dozen crates of glass catalogues and have not noticed it yet. But the box mountain has to be moved so I can line the roof and keep damp out a bit more! Luckily nothing appears to have suffered in 3 years of storage. Apart from me of course.

Quite remarkable what you can achieve in your little garden shed Gary, but I find your finished product unconvincing. Monart has dark colour at the top with shiny bits. Let me guess on the label XXX.GM.666
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on October 11, 2011, 07:35:29 PM
uncanny Frank how you guessed the code, the making the glass to the formula was the easy part, its making the label so that the print doent come off when you rub it with your finger, if only theyd wrote down the label formula, mmmmm you never know it might be the next thing to be discovered ,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on January 03, 2012, 02:11:54 PM
One more Monart piece has turned up on ebay with the wrong coding sequence(31:Y:X11), plus the colour code(31) is wrong. Colour code 31 is surfaced decorated polycrhome,the correct colour code for this pin dish is 158.
This piece is from the same vendor who sold the other Monart pieces with suspect labels discussed in this thread.
Gary
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_Auction=1&_nkw=monart&_dmpt=UK_Art_Glass&_ipg=&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283&_rdc=1
http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Colours099.htm
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on January 03, 2012, 04:38:27 PM
With a flat base and pristine label there must be zero wear on base as the label would stop the glass from contacting surface.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: RAY on January 04, 2012, 09:30:10 PM
look at the IEA paperweight they have for sale,  not a single wear mark on the monart label from the pontil mark ,
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on January 04, 2012, 11:06:51 PM
Ray, the IEA weights (at least, those with a blue ground) had a smooth polished base ... hence no pontil mark to cause any wear mark on the label.

Edited to say ...  Doh! That's incorrect. They had a small round pontil scar which was (usually) in an indentation. Therefore the pontil mark causes no wear other than an impression of the edge of the mark - which is what can be seen on the one referred to.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: RAY on January 04, 2012, 11:35:34 PM
to me Kev in the photo you can see a pontil mark, do you mean the whole base has been ground and polished or just the pontil on IEA weights, i've never seen one of these in the flesh
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on January 05, 2012, 12:13:47 AM
Kevin cheated and modified the post you reacted to Ray. >:D
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: KevinH on January 05, 2012, 12:55:29 AM
For confirmation, here's three photo examples of what I meant to say ...

The OrangeYellow weight shows a small "crunchy" style scar in an obvious indentation
The White one shows a typical small "nodule" style scar in shallow indent
The Labelled one is an IEA on Blue Ground weight which just about shows the ridges from a "nodule" style scar under the label but in an indent.

The ebay one (relisted item initially from the Bourne End sale) is much the same as my example in the way the label is set over the indented pontil scar, except that the eBay one has a complete label.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on January 11, 2012, 10:34:18 PM
This is has come up on ebay. It is one of the strange code sequence pieces from the Bourne End sale. Not only is the code sequence wrong the colour code is on the label (55) the correct colour code I believe should be 96.
Gary
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_Auction=1&_nkw=monart&_dmpt=UK_Art_Glass&_ipg=&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283&_rdc=1

Mod: Gary's eBay link above goes to a list of various Monart items. The vase referred to is:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170762552065
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on January 12, 2012, 12:58:20 AM
cant be colour code 96 as thats only brown and orange, the vase on ebay is orange with brown, black and gold adventurine
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: ronno on February 18, 2012, 10:56:12 PM
You might like to know that JJ was spotted in Perth last week and is "downsizing".  Be aware.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: nigel benson on February 20, 2012, 11:21:55 PM

Useful information. Thank you for letting us all know :)

Nigel
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on February 25, 2012, 10:35:10 PM
Nigel any idea when your visiting Kew next :thup:
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on September 12, 2012, 11:56:05 AM
This is a photo I took at Perth library. It was among the Moncrieff archives and it shows that Moncrieff's did have a London office. There was no date on the headed note paper.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on September 13, 2012, 07:10:18 AM
mmm interesting, pity there wasnt any dated ones, still am sure someone might have an idea
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on September 13, 2012, 08:36:39 AM
I suspect it must date from the early 1900's, as the Moncrieff telephone number was 711 which would mean that Perth only had a maximum of 999 subscribers to the telephone exchange. This is only my assumption as my knowledge of telephone history is next to nothing. I am hoping some member with more knowledge on the subject can shed some light on it.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: millarart on September 13, 2012, 11:19:01 AM
1920s ???
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: flying free on September 13, 2012, 12:10:39 PM
Not relevant at all but I thought you might like to see a description of 30 Curzon Street which is a listed building :)
that's a pretty magnificent address to have as your London office - the glass must have looked amazing if it was displayed there.

http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-209429-30-curzon-street-w1-greater-london-autho

this is the front of the building
http://www.ebarch.com/projects.php?id=25&view=descr
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on September 14, 2012, 09:13:39 AM
A bit more info on date of Moncrieff's office in London, the two images below are from the Monart archives in Perth Museum. The important bit is the badge on the heading " NATIONAL SCHEME FOR DISABLED MEN". This scheme was introduced in 1917. This would indicate that the Moncrieff office in London was pre 1917 as the headed note paper with the London address does not have that emblem. Also the later headed note paper is minus the London address.
Thanks for the links flying free, pretty swanky building in an up market area of London.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on September 23, 2012, 10:47:43 PM
Interesting they should use old notepaper in 1961!!! a bit fishy. Has someone had fun selling to the museum....
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on September 24, 2012, 08:56:50 AM
The provenance of these price lists, according to Perth museum is that there were donated by Betty Reid family after her death. Below are images of price lists from the same source (Perth Museum archives), there is more price lists among the archives.
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Gary on September 24, 2012, 08:59:49 AM
Some more images.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: Frank on September 24, 2012, 09:32:57 AM
Intriguing, so probably just for internal use. Now who sold Monart in Northern Ireland!
Title: Re: Monart Glass formula ??
Post by: flying free on September 24, 2012, 06:25:48 PM
I like the 1949 amended list with all the changes...and the difference in retail v Trade price...interesting in that the retailer wasn't getting 100% profit. 
Thanks for sharing these - I find them fascinating.
m