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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: tootingpf on December 27, 2011, 02:35:19 PM

Title: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on December 27, 2011, 02:35:19 PM
Hi all,

I've just received this paperweight (Christmas and all that) and lovely it is too.  The signature cane in the base reads, 'JD 1994' so I'm pretty certain it's John Deacons!

The question is, 'Any idea who might have done the lampwork?'  I'm under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong!) that John rarely does the lampwork, so I wondered who might have done the flower?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Graham
Title: Re: John Deacon's lampwork?
Post by: ahremck on December 27, 2011, 10:20:54 PM
Great question Graham  :thup:

I too have a nice JD lampwork pwt with two canes set in the base.  One has J 1980 and the other an A as the centre of a millefiore cane.  It will be interesting to see what your query brings up from those more experienced and expert than us.

Ross
Title: Re: John Deacon's lampwork?
Post by: RAY on December 27, 2011, 10:53:39 PM
ross your weight .. the A is Allan scott who did most of the lampwork for John in the J glass days
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Roger H on December 28, 2011, 12:28:36 AM
   HI , can see the alan talent in the JD and A cane weight but I would have thought that Johns 94 weight had his own lampwork in it. This is just something I have always thought so it will be interesting when somebody throws some definite light on the subject. Roger.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: daveweight on December 28, 2011, 01:43:41 PM
Over the years John Deacons has used lampwork by several artists in his paperweights and these include Alan Scott, Duncan Smith, Willie Manson and Rosette Fleming but he also makes his own lampwork as has been stated.
With regard to your weight Ross I think this a J Glass piece with Alan Scotts lampwork and A signature cane but the lampwork in yours Graham is by a different maker and I would suggest Rosette. I am attaching a picture of an encased double overlay from 1996 with her lampwork in for comparaion but maybe someone else has another suggestion ?
Dave
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on December 29, 2011, 12:53:02 AM
Many thanks Dave!  That looks spot on!   :thup: The style of the petals, leaves, and centre cane, all look pretty identical - so it looks like Rosette is the one.
 
Haven't really been aware of her stuff, but will look out for it now!

Thanks again!

Graham
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: daveweight on December 29, 2011, 11:56:27 AM
Rosette Fleming learned her skills working with Allan Scott at Caithness, she designed many paperweights for the company and after leaving she worked freelance but then had several children and no longer makes lampwork at the moment. She made weights for the Scottish Glass Society Exhibitions but her work is hard to find but here is one of her weights I got from her
Dave
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: jakgene on December 29, 2011, 12:03:23 PM
That is gorgeous Dave, I just love the tortoise!
JAK
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: ahremck on December 29, 2011, 10:39:48 PM
Thanks so much for that information Dave (and the beautiful weights you have shown us).  The second on with the tortoise makews me think that my other JD lampworks weight may have been made by her as well - I would value your opinion.

Ross
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: SophieB on December 30, 2011, 05:02:37 PM
Hi Ross,

I don't think that Rosette Fleming could have done the lampwork on your plum weight as it is a J glass weight. She was trained by Allan when he was at Caithness, i.e. some time later (J glass closed in 1983 and Allan found employment with Caithness but did not make any lampwork for another year). I understand that Rosette did lampwork for John Deacons studio since leaving Caithness but I am not sure when this happened exactly.

SophieB
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Wuff on December 30, 2011, 07:30:53 PM
For anyone interested in this sort of information on Caithness, the designers and their paperweights, I can only recommend you treat yourself to a copy of Andy Nowson's "Encyclopedia".

Rosette Fleming joined Caithness in 1983; her first design (4 "Four Seasons" weights) was issued in 1996, her last designs in 1999. Soon later she joined John Deacons - and worked with him until 2002.

This would not support that Graham's weight, signed 'JD 1994', would be her lampwork, however - unless she worked also for him whilst at Caithness.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Roger H on December 31, 2011, 04:47:58 PM
 Hello, a JD beauty with 2003 date cane, but who made the flower? Roger.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Roger H on January 01, 2012, 08:29:53 PM
   I have had a look through my previously owned JD weights and see a theme of the leaves being made by John perhaps and the flower heads by himself and several other artists, Alan Scott, Rosette fleming, Willie manson, etc. The leaves on Grahams weight look the same maker as mine and they are 9 years apart. More input by somebody who knows would be very interesting. Roger.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Leni on January 02, 2012, 01:50:37 PM
Since Allan Scott trained Rosette at Caithness, their work would necessarily look similar, wouldn't it? 

I believe Allan has gone back to doing some work with John Deacons again since leaving Caithness, which IMHO is *A Good Thing*   ;D :hiclp:

Allan does occasionally read and post here, so perhaps he will see this thread and help us out  :)
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 02, 2012, 02:01:12 PM
Just my tuppence worth, but why should a weight be described as "JD" if somebody such as Allan or Rosette did the lampwork?
Surely in these cases, the artist mentioned should be the lampworker, not the technician who finished them off with a bit of casing.

grrrr!  :grrr: at artists not being properly attributed (and others taking the credit, :grrr: :grrr: ) - especially those of Allan's and Rosette's calibre!
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on January 02, 2012, 02:33:30 PM
I agree that I'd like to see more attributions in the, 'branding' of weights but, to be fair to JD, it's part of a long tradition.  Almost all, 'classic period' weights are attributed to factories not individuals.  Since then, the trend has continued: Harland, Caithness, Selkirk, Perthshire, have all produced weights where the individual artist cannot (easily) be identified.  If it's John's studio then the output is his I guess.

Hee hee!  Having tried my hand at paperweight making I'd have to say it takes more than a, 'technician' to pick up and encase the lampwork.  I found the lampworking (relatively!!!!) easier (droopy, L-shaped, paperweight anybody?).  I'm quite happy to buy collaborative pieces.  I'd have to say JD is, IMHO, one of the finest workers of hot glass (quintuple/encased overlay....?) and I think it only improves the quality and beauty of the weight to let somebody who is at the top of the game in lampworking (Allan...) do what they do best.

But would still like to see all contributions attributed.

Anybody know what the, 'rules' are for getting your cane in a paperweight?  Sometimes individual canes appear in Caithness weights (e.g. Willie Manson), Selkirk weights (e.g. Peter Holmes) and JD (e.g. Allan Scott).  Sometimes the maker appears on the certificate.  But not always.

Still, all adds to the fun I suppose!

Graham

Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 02, 2012, 02:46:45 PM
I'm more impressed by Allan than JD.  >:D

(personal thing, I suppose)
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on January 02, 2012, 03:02:04 PM

One of my favourite paperweights, currently, is a JD magnum closepack (sorry, no pic to hand!) - but now I expect somebody will tell me he doesn't make his own canes either....

Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on January 02, 2012, 03:03:54 PM
Allan's lampwork is among my favourites though....
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: ALLAN on January 02, 2012, 04:00:17 PM
Hi All, I am fairly certain that the flower in the single overlay is not Rosettes as she was still doing work for Caithness then, also it is not as delicate work as she is capable of. I doubt if it was Duncan Smith either as he was still working for Perthshire at the time. I would guess it was either W.Manson or maybe one of the assistants at Perthshire working on the side. The Plum weight is one I have not seen for a long time, all the Jay Glass lampwork was done by myself.
       Allan
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 02, 2012, 04:16:14 PM
 :smg:

That's really great to know Allan - thanks for popping in to sort this out.
I shall be spreading the word.  >:D
Hope you have a great new year!
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on January 02, 2012, 04:50:28 PM
Many thanks also Allan - I shall go back and have another look  :usd: at my Jay-glass pansy....

Regards,

Graham
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Roger H on January 02, 2012, 05:22:17 PM
   Horses for courses. I am in no doubt that JD is one of the best at picking up, forming, cane work and overlaying but seems to be wise enough to engage torch workers to add that something special in some of his weights, it also gives the torch workers income.                 Whether their canes are included in the weights is up to their personal agreement with John, but yes it would be nice for more clarification.
   For instance I have a beautiful 2005 pansy in a weight that is marvelously formed by John but I could only guess the pansy is made by ?????????? 
     Regards Roger. 
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on January 02, 2012, 06:04:23 PM
Wow,  that is a beauty Roger.  Amethyst flash overlay?  I'm a big fan of flash overlays for some reason...  And one of the many themes I collect is pansies (and anything else that looks nice).

Hmmm. The pansy has a slightly Willie Mansonish look to it (trademark blobs on the petals), but the leaves don't.  So, no idea!

Right, can somebody (not me as I'm mystified by the whole business) please write a book including a section about who did what bits of which paperweights when?  I'd buy a copy....

Graham

PS  I'm also with you on the notion of everybody doing what they do best.  Makes for superb weights.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: ahremck on January 02, 2012, 08:42:11 PM
Thanks so much Allan for that information re the plums weight.  Until this topic came up I did not realise that in the back of my mind I wondered who had made the lampwork.  The blue flower was obviously someone elses work in combination - and now I know it was you, but the plums offered no clue I was aware of.

Ross

PS.  Happy New Year to all.  :chky: :hiclp: :rah:  :ho: :ho:
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Sach on January 03, 2012, 12:08:40 AM
Just my tuppence worth, but why should a weight be described as "JD" if somebody such as Allan or Rosette did the lampwork?
Surely in these cases, the artist mentioned should be the lampworker, not the technician who finished them off with a bit of casing.

Really now, do you think it's so simple as "a bit of casing"!?  I can tell you that in many ways the encasement and shaping process is far more likely to ruin a paperweight than you seem to think.  Additionally if you work for another artist and or studio then your pay is what you get.  David Graeber worked for Paul Stankard for many years before he was GIVEN credit.  Same for Tiffany or Chilhuly or the guys and gals that built your car.  Producing paperweights in any significant quantity is a business that requires many hands.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: daveweight on January 03, 2012, 11:29:19 AM
Hi Leni
That is a fair comment you have made but I guess the problem is that the likes of Allan Scott, Linda Campbell, Rosette Fleming and Duncan Smith are excellent craftsmen and can make superb lampwork but none of them can encase it and produce a paperweight. Therefore, all they can do is to make lampwork and sell it to people like John who can then turn it into paperweights. The ideal solution would be for lampworkers for fix their signature cane to the back of each piece they make and then the person who makes the weight to incluide their can too but in reality this does not happen.
Attached is a picture of a JD paperweight containing a lampwork shire hore made by Duncan Smith
Dave
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Leni on January 03, 2012, 11:40:04 AM
I think it was Sue's comment you are answering, not mine, Dave  :) 

I believe John Deacons does now include the ID canes of the lampworkers who work with him in his paperweights.  It's just the early ones we are still uncertain about.  Thank you, Allan for your assistance in helping to identify your work  :thup:
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: m1asmithw8s on January 03, 2012, 01:14:45 PM
Allan is quite capable of encasing weights. I'd buy more JD weights if he Did have the collaborators signature cane in them.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 03, 2012, 01:35:45 PM
 :hiclp:
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Sach on January 03, 2012, 02:21:51 PM
Allan is quite capable of encasing weights. I'd buy more JD weights if he Did have the collaborators signature cane in them.

Agreed, I have a special fondness for collaborative weights that are identified as such.  Yet it is up to the primary artist/studio to decide if they want to include such information within the weight or the materials describing the weight when it is brought to market.  As collectors anyone who wants to see this done should tell the studios that this is their preference.  The studios just want to sell their product as quickly and at the best price as is possible.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 03, 2012, 02:46:17 PM
You mean it is up to the owner of the facilities to make the decision.
I consider the lampwork to be the primary art and the lampworker the primary artist.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Sach on January 03, 2012, 05:31:35 PM
You mean it is up to the owner of the facilities to make the decision.
I consider the lampwork to be the primary art and the lampworker the primary artist.


And you are certainly free to think that way.  In my frame of reference the primary artist is the one controlling the process of creation/production and thus the one who gets to decide how the end product is described and sold.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 03, 2012, 05:37:43 PM
But the lampworker alone creates the beautiful centre feature of the weight (which is the whole point of the thing).
They wouldn't sell without that, no matter how rich or controlling the owner of the facilities is.
We shall have to agree to differ.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Roger H on January 03, 2012, 06:20:24 PM
  There are some interesting points coming out about this lampwork and of course not everyone will have the same opinion. John is quite capable of making excellent weights without any collaboration, I've had JD garlands better than many baccarat weights but he likes torch expertise and incorporates them at times. Perhaps it might be a selling point if the artists sig canes were involved?  Roger (the peacemaker).
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on January 03, 2012, 07:51:31 PM
Wasn't expecting such a lively discussion!  :bsh:

Which side of a square makes the greatest contribution to its area?

Same with paperweights (except they're generally not square...!).  For instance, one of the things I like about the paperweight that started this thread, is the beautiful red flash overlay (not to mention the lovely, and perfectly executed, 'cushion' on which the lampwork sits - presumably both done by JD).  So you have the lampworker, the 'encaser' and, in many cases a faceter (if that's even a real word).

It would be nice to have a full, 'pedigree' for weights though - it just makes it interesting to follow individuals across different weights and times.

For example, now we've finished with JD, I'd love to know who did the lampwork in this one.  It's Pertshire (unless the maker was called, 'Phil' or similar) but I've no idea who did the lampwork.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Leni on January 03, 2012, 07:53:59 PM
I'm not sure about the weights Allan has collaborated with John on, although I know his lampwork is acknowledged in the dealers' info about them, but John does include Willie Manson canes in weights where Willie has done the lampwork.  

I understand that John and Craig now also do lampwork themselves, although IMHO it's not of the same quality as Allan's.   However, the canes, including the 'silhouette'  and picture canes, and the overlays and torsades, are magnificent and, as Roger says, every bit as good as - or even better than - Baccarat!

[Mod: Spelling of "Willie Manson" above has been corrected.]  
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Leni on January 03, 2012, 07:57:02 PM
I'd love to know who did the lampwork in this one.  It's Pertshire (unless the maker was called, 'Phil' or similar) but I've no idea who did the lampwork.

Presumably that would be Peter McDougall.
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: tootingpf on January 03, 2012, 08:33:49 PM
Ah, thanks Leni - could well be!

The puzzle then is, if PM is capable of such superb lampwork, why is some of the current lampwork in his weights produced by Karen Maxwell (I believe)?

Regards,

Graham
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Roger H on January 03, 2012, 08:43:00 PM
   Dont believe P Mac is a torchwork person like he is a magnificent cane maker. Cant believe he did the 6 flower bouquet in the 1997 perthshire weight, perhaps it was Karen?  Some one will know. Roger(the unconvinced).
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Leni on January 03, 2012, 11:03:24 PM
Peter McDougall does do lampwork, and so does his son Allan.  However, in many of their recent lampwork weights the lampwork is credited to Karen Maxwell.  I agree with Roger that Peter is better at cane work than lamp work, although IMHO he can do these nice, simple little flowers very well.  Perhaps he just prefers to do the canes, and wisely knows himself what he is best at?   ;)
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: Leni on January 03, 2012, 11:14:55 PM
It's Pertshire (unless the maker was called, 'Phil' or similar) but I've no idea who did the lampwork.

Just had a thought ... Are you sure it's Perthshire?  I suppose it couldn't possible be by Peter Holmes, could it?   :-\
Title: Re: John Deacons' lampwork?
Post by: KevinH on January 03, 2012, 11:34:03 PM
The faceted blue flower weight is definitely a Perthshire Paperweights item - nothing to do with Peter Holmes. :)

Could we all please take care that this thread does not become too complicated. We could end up discussing who made the lampwork in all sorts of weights from all sorts of countries and across many many years.

But maybe that would make for a fascinating (although perhaps rather repetitive) thread. If that happens the thread title would be better as a generic "Who made the Lampwork?" or similar.