Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: bigdog on December 22, 2006, 12:39:21 AM
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Can anyone give me info on this 8" goblet? From my little research is this Gino Cenedese 1950's. Is it a good piece I haven't seen anything like it. It has Moses bringing the ten commandments down the mountain.
Thanks, Bryan
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/brywil1970/cenedese.jpg
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/brywil1970/Cenedese1.jpg
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/brywil1970/cenedese2.jpg
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/brywil1970/cenedese3.jpg
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You could try contacting them direct? :)
http://www.cenedesegino.it/eng/form.htm
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Sometime the good name factories outsorce part of their production, expecially if not part of their core products, to smaller furnaces.
Considering the kind of glassworks made by Cenedese at that time and the several small furnaces specilized in goblets, I think realistic that the outsourved the production of this goblet, than marked Cenedese with the sticker and sold by the Cenedese sales organization.
Pratically impossible to tell who was the master glassmaker who made the piece.
Sincerely
Alex
www.artofvenice.com (http://www.artofvenice.com)
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Hi again Alex,
Thanks so much for the imput on this.
Great info!
Javier
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Thanks, I did try contacting them with no answer. Also I was interested in the fact that Gino Cenedese seemed to also be a painter. So I thought these could be extra special. Oh well!!
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Hi, I have a somewhat similar themed goblet with Moses holding the 10 commandments on one side and another scene on the reverse. Baldwin attributed these ruby glass goblets as Moser, made for the Jewish market, but now I am wondering if they might also be an outsourcing by Cenedese. Does anyone read replies 4 years after the original posting?
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The label on the first goblet appears to be a newer Cenedese label (The label for ARS Cenedese) I think David pointed out in another forum that Cenedese ARS was trademarked in 2008 by the US. Here is the link:
http://www.fossilfly.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=3274&highlight=Cenedese+label
tam bam
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I've been wondering about the Cenedese label. Might it not be a label that's been used for decades?
I say this because I've a few Cenedese pieces with this label that look very 1970s in style, but bear little relation to their current output. But I also have an item or two that are very much in the current catalogue with the same label.
The only other Cenedese label I remember seeing is a plain white printed one, but this also seems applicable to newer/older style stock.
The same goes for the signed/unsigned issue. I've seen it mentioned before that the signature is probably an artifact of post-90s production, but I've got a few that feel a bit older - quite a chintzy (chintzy for me!) 70s/80s-vibe lamp base I have springs to mind.
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I can't believe ARS Cenedese was first used in 2008. Here is an example of a goblet that has ARS Cenedese built into the design. I would be quite surprised if this goblet was made recently.
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Hi again, :hi:
I wasn't trying to say that ARS Cenedese was established in 2008 just trade marked in the US in 2008. I believe David meant this as well. I also believe ARS Cenedese is older than 2008 (probably not much older). The Cenedese company has changed it's name several times throughout the history of the company. Their website doesn't mention any of this or dates as to when the company names were changed throughout the years. Also the company has been owned by others without the Cenedese name (example: Cenedese & Albarelli. Mr. Albarelli was the owner of the company in the early 90's, I believe).
I also found this in Glass Notes to further complicate the issue:
Seguso Vetri d'Arte
Murano, Venice, Italy (1933 - 1992)
Originally Barovier, Seguso & Ferro. Name changed 1937. Napoleone Barovier, Antonio & his sons Ernesto/Alberto/Archimede Seguso, Luigi Olimpio Ferro (1933-37), Vittorio Zecchin (1933-34), Flavio Poli (1934-63), Alfredo Barbini (c 1936), Mario Pinzoni (1954-71), Angelo Seguso (1950s-85), Bruno Seguso, Vittorio Rigattieri (1968-73), Pino Signoretto (1973-76). Traded as S.A.M. (Sculpture Artistiche Muranesi) 1973-76. Taken over by Gino Cenedese 1993, and production discontinued. Re-established in 1996 as a separate company, but with the glassware (now mainly lighting) actually manufactured by Formia S.r.l. website
(FYI - SVdA is now back together and Glass Notes has not updated this information yet. The two companies merged and became SVdA in 1993. This was the time Albarelli owned the property and used his name on Cenedese products (Cenedese & Albarelli and he also used Seguso Vetri d' Arte on the products without his name being on the label. I believe at that time the company used older designs from Cenedese and SVdA and reproduced them so not everything from this company that looks old really is. Many modern Murano companies make reproductions and this can get tricky). I know this doesn't relate to ARS Cenedese but I thought I would add it in to point out the fact that the company has changed names and owners over the years and reproductions have been made.)
Here is also some history from Murano Magic: (It doesn't mention ARS Cenedese but I believe it was after Albarelli owned the company is when it was changed to ARS Cenedese or at least this is an educated guess.)
http://www.boglewood.com/murano/producers/cenedese.html
Someone chime in if I am wrong or have anything else to add.
tam bam
P.S. - Sorry to talk about you David, but I had to mention you because I have always trusted your advice regarding glass. :thup:
I
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Thanks, Tami, for the compliment, although it took me a minute to figure out it was me as I didn't immediately remember the other thread. I'm not sure this is easily cleared up as the Cenedese history is so murky at times. I think the foil label was much the same in terms of basic design for a good number of years, although I think someone with a better understanding of paper, font design, and printing might be able to establish differences over the years. I couldn't tell if the label in question is 80's or current. I'll attach a photograph of a label and a signature that I think are older, most likely 1950's or 60's.
However, the signature on the scavo piece in the other thread reads "Ars Cenedese" and that is very new. When I said that it was trade marked in the US in 2008, I wasn't saying that was the date for its first use in Murano. However, I have to confess I don't think the "ARS" part was in use anywhere much before then. So I'd say any Cenedese piece with Ars on in is relatively new, even if the design looks old.
What Alex said about Cenedese outsourcing rings very true even for today. The other complicating factor is that the recent Cenedese produced a whole bunch of stuff that was based on earlier designs just about the same time that many older Cenedese pieces came on the market when Designs and Arts (the German company seen often on eBay) acquired a significant amount of old Cenedese stock, which look pristine as they've been sitting in a warehouse for nearly 50 years.
Hope this does not create too much further confusion.
David
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Until Cenedese confirms that ARS Cenedese are or were part of the company I would treat them as unrelated.
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Here's a matching ARS Cenedese (again, with the name worked into the design) goblet bearing the potentially old-style label:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cenedese-Murano-Glas-Pokal-Malerei-MUSEAL-zum-rest-/390317697066?pt=Glas_Kristall&hash=item5ae0bf682a
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More ARS Cenedese, different Cenedese label (this is the plain text label that I've seen on a few contemporary-looking pieces):
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?topic=13463.0
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Of course - all the labels might have been used concurrently, for different purposes (export, domestic, prestige customers, bog-standard retail, etc...) or had strong overlaps in the periods in which they were used.
One of the things I learned when studying Danish glass is that you should never entirely rely on a label to date a piece - even if you know it's original to it - because if a factory found a stockpile of obsolete labels... they'd almost certainly use them. :)
But given that all three labels appear on three similar hand-decorated pieces by the same artist, with the plaque (apparently) dated for 1964, I'd argue for sustained concurrent usage.
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I wonder if we are dealing with at least two ARS Cenedese here: one responsible for the enamel pieces (which I admit I know absolutely nothing about) in the 60's onwards, and the other reproducing the pieces that most of us know as Cenedese. We know that on Murano a few names go a long way. Think of Toso, Seguso etc.
I did a Google search and found this on "Find Owner Search": "MURANO CENEDESE VETRI ARS CENEDESE MURANO SRL is believed to be currently owned by “CENEDESE AMELIO”. Treatment of materials, treatment of semi-precious stones, articles of stone, metals and glass materials, glass blowing, glass tempering, glass tinting, and gold plating."
There's another listing for a slightly differently named company at a different address: Company Name: ARS CENEDESE MURANO (S.R.L.)
Detail : Glassware, decorative
Address : S. Marco 30124 Venezia (VE)
There was also a blog about a couple's visit to Venice in 2003 when they visited the "Ars Cenedese factory and showrooms on Murano" at the invitation of one of the owners. Two of the pictures show clearly a whole range of scavo pieces. http://www.callzia.com/Family_Friends/It_Venezia/source/670-818-11.html
My conclusion is that we're talking about at least two separate companies, although, as Alex originally suggested, one might have sold the work of the other. I would modify my statement about anything with Ars Cenedese on it being relatively new, to anything that has Ars Murano engraved upon it it (i.e. the scavo pieces) is relatively new. It could also be that ARS CENEDESE MURANO (S.R.L.) is still selling work by MURANO CENEDESE VETRI ARS CENEDESE MURANO SRL.
My apologies for muddying the waters.
David
PS One of Nic's referenced pieces is from Designs and Arts, the German seller I mentioned.
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In the blog on ARS Cenedese, you can see the normal Gino Cenedese logo:
http://www.callzia.com/Family_Friends/It_Venezia/source/img_3144.html
And Amelio Cenedese is the son of Gino, described on the Gino Cenedese e Figlio factory website as still working with them.
It's all very confusing. ;D
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I think we have learned a lot from this discussion. Getting the real facts regarding Cenedese is very complicated indeed. At lease we know a little more now but it is still confusing like David & Pinkspoons stated.
tam bam
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Hi
What fantastic pieces. Generally, these are referred to as MUSEUM QUALITY pieces where the glass is blown the hand painted by what could only be described as extremely talented artists with cartouches of ancient mythical scenes and alike. They really are gorgeous and you must be very proud to own them. Keep up the good work
Ciao
Dean