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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: agincourt17 on July 19, 2012, 07:19:19 PM

Title: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: agincourt17 on July 19, 2012, 07:19:19 PM
Can anyone tell me who the registrant and date of registration were for RD 580105, please?

The date should be some time in March 1911.
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Anne on July 19, 2012, 10:24:13 PM
Hmmm that's not in the Blue Book Fred. Are you sure of the number? Do you have a pic of the item so we can see it? It might be one that's been filed under a different class, in which case you may have to ask Paul nicely if he'll look it up on his next visit to the National Archives at Kew.  :)
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: agincourt17 on July 20, 2012, 09:10:02 AM
I'm still trying to purchase a copy of the Blue Book for myself but It's no longer listed on the The Glass Association's publications list. I've been in touch with the GA by email and they think they 'may have a single copy somewhere, but they are on holiday at the moment and will get back to me in due course'.

I've seen this piece on an internet auction site and have have queried the seller about the RD number. It is a is a cranberry glass bowl (not sure if it is blown or pressed) in a plated metal stand. Because of the metal mount I suppose it could be filed under another class, but the metalware itself is unmarked (though it looks right for 1911).

I'll request permission from the seller to let me post file copies of some of their images on GMB for ID purposes and see what happens.
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Paul S. on July 20, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
I can, of course, no problem, assuming it remains a mystery ..............I was also going to suggest that someone kindly photostats a copy of the Blue book for Fred  -  there's only 24 pages in total  -  if the GA discover they don't have one left.         I wouldn't have thought this would be a copyright issue provided for private use only.
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Anne on July 20, 2012, 11:39:00 AM
Rather than risking breaching the GA copyright and getting into bother, it might be worth a mention here (for those who aren't aware of it, although I know Paul is) that many of the RD nos. for glass may also be found online at http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/regnos.htm. 8)
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: agincourt17 on July 20, 2012, 12:03:50 PM
Thank you Paul & Anne.

My first 'port of call' for RD numbers is usually http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/regnos.htm.
but, valuable as the lists generally are, there are lots of gaps as 'our lists only include designs for decorative glassware, and only those by major manufacturers, importers, wholesalers and retailers. They do not contain Registered Designs for much commercial glassware (i.e. items such as bottles, jars and scientific apparatus)'. Unfortunately, those omitted registrations are often those relating to some of the more obscure fields in which I am interested.
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Paul S. on July 20, 2012, 01:02:46 PM
I was at Kew earlier this week, but in view of the forthcoming activities in the London area I had it in mind not to venture back again until the Olympics is finished in case the traffic is horrendous.        If you still have this item down as a query  Fred - when life gets back to normal - let me know and I'll have a look in the archives for you.
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Anne on July 20, 2012, 01:11:59 PM
Fred I agree, it's frustrating, isn't it?
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Anne on July 21, 2012, 01:15:31 AM
I've been playing with the new search function on the NatArchives (it's really neat!) and ran a search across it for Registered Design No 580105 and nothing's shown up, which is a bit odd. Meanwhile, the seller tells me that the RD No. is on the frame not on the glass. I did ask for pictures but no joy.
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: agincourt17 on July 21, 2012, 10:15:56 AM
Thank you, Anne.

I had requested a detailed condition report on the glass, whether the glass was pressed or blown, confirmation of the RD number and its postion, and permission to save an image for use on GMB, but I am still waiting for a reply from the seller.

It could well be then, that the registration number relates to the frame rather than the glass (sorry if it's become largely a non-glass related post as a consequence), but it's still really odd that the number doesn't show up in searches at the NatArchives.

I've got a few 'oddities' and apparent ommisions regarding RD numbers (mostly of glass but also some metalwork and china) so I'll give the newNatArchives search function a whirl. Many thanks for mentioning it. With a bit of luck it may even reduce or negate my need for a copy of the Blue Book.




Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Paul S. on July 21, 2012, 11:51:19 AM
Anne  -  unless the people at Kew have changed their system (and I haven't been into the thing in detail), their method - on the pc screen - had always been to show many large groups of Rd. Nos.  -  and not to show data down to individual No. level  -  since obviously there is a vast quantity of data relating to Rd. Nos. (not only for glass, but for all 14 or 15 other groups - additional to glass).         
You identify the range of Nos. which will include the specific item you are interested in, then (either by phone prior to arriving, or in person when you arrive) you request the Register (text details) or box of Representations (the pictures) - and they try to have them available within the hour.         For glass these are BT 52 and 53 from memory  -  (BT standing for Board of Trade).
None of this is possible, of course, unless you are have a reader's ticket  -  and for this you must visit in person and register yourself together with a photograph (and possibly a birth certificate, but I'm not sure now about that one).

If Kew have changed their ystem, and all this may now been done on the phone, please do let me know :).
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Anne on July 21, 2012, 06:41:02 PM
It's their new (as in still in testing mode) search system Paul, which gives a precis / overview of each RD no. I had an enjoyable couple of hours last evening wading through the first 300 of some umpteen odd thousand! :) http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Home
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Paul S. on July 21, 2012, 10:04:49 PM
quote from  Mr. thicky was meant to say..........................done on the screen.
I will have a look and see how adequate it appears to be.............will save me going to Kew...........although the down side might be that drawings/pictures will not be accessible on the screen, and it's often necessary to see these.

However, sounds as though it's a step in the right direction. :)
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: agincourt17 on July 23, 2012, 11:21:42 AM
Permission for use of photo at last.

The seller confirms that the RD number is stamped on the metalware (not on the glass as I first intimated).

They seem to think that the cranberry glass bowl is pressed, but it looks more like mould-blown to me.

I suppose that the bowl doesn't necessarily even have to be British.

Any opinions, please?


(Permission for re-use of this image on the GMB granted by 'debra_charity')



Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Paul S. on July 23, 2012, 02:46:37 PM
Well, obviously I'm doing something wrong.............Unlike Anne I can't get beyond group level.

Using Anne's link I've been in and looked at the Board of Trade references BT 52 (the bits with the text) and BT 53 (the bits with pictures).       From what I can see, the screen is telling me that I will need a readers ticket to progress beyond the classification of groups, and they provide a box in which these items can be ordered for when you arrive.         The screen page says that these groups have not been digitised for viewing down to single Rd. item level - so would appear that the bottom line remains that if individual items need to be referred to, then a personal visit and a Reader's Ticket are necessary.            For Registration No. 580105 the following are the relevant papers to see:

The Register (the text) is BT 53/18 (Feb. 21st  -  May 6th  1911)  -  covering Registrations Nos. 578924 - 583324.
The Representations (images) is BT 52/310  - covering Registrations Nos. 580039  -  580200.

This Rd. No. is part of the same sequence of Nos. as umpteen other products/materials (ceramics - metal - glass and some fabric materials) - it really is an eye opener to visit Kew and see some of the inventions and designs that form part of these Registrations.   
If it remains a query, I can make a visit after the Olympics. :)

 
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Anne on July 23, 2012, 03:30:59 PM
Paul, I didn't navigate by the references, I used the search box - put glass into there and then refined the results to show only BT results. :)
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Paul S. on July 23, 2012, 06:58:55 PM
no good, sorry, doing something wrong.         If you get the time Anne, perhaps you might try this one for Fred.    Thanks. :)
Title: Re: RD 580105 - registrant & date of registration, please?
Post by: Anne on July 23, 2012, 07:52:49 PM
I did Paul, and it's not there (yet) the online collection isn't yet complete though.