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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: The Glass Staircase on March 06, 2018, 05:37:20 PM

Title: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 06, 2018, 05:37:20 PM
Hi all,

I got this magnum sulphide paperweight today and I was just wondering if anyone could help me with where it was made and/or possibly its age. The glass has strong purple tint which looks like alexandrite glass but it glows bright green under a uv torch and it has a partially polished concave pontil mark on base with substantial wear making me thinking its from early 20th century at least.

It measures 3.5 inches diameter and 2.5 inches high (approx)


Any help greatly appreciated TIA

Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: KevinH on March 06, 2018, 08:11:38 PM
Hmm.

I cannot say for sure, but it might be by Salvador Ysart and made in the 1930s (or a bit earlier). But it might be something else entirely. Could it be from continental Europe? It might be! Does anyone know of examples with the purple tint?

Is it a "Paul Ysart sulphide"? No, it is not like the ones Paul Ysart made himself using metal brooches etc, to form a mould.

I will not add further comments right now, because a full analysis of the various features could become quite complex and needs to be considered very carefully.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 07, 2018, 07:38:52 AM
Hi Kevin, 

Thank you for your reply. Yes I did consider both Europe and Ysart but was leaning more towards the former than latter.

I will wait and see if any one else will chime in with any suggestions.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: glassobsessed on March 07, 2018, 07:41:28 AM
I understood this weight was made by Salvador Ysart, not as strong a purple tint though.

John
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 07, 2018, 10:19:02 AM
The chappie doesn't look very British to my eyes...
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: KevinH on March 07, 2018, 02:15:11 PM
John's weight is indeed by Salvador Ysart. See my example of a roundels pattern on the same white and green striped powdered ground.

As with John's, mine appears tinted (in some light conditions) but not as obvious and strong as the Op's weight. I do have a couple of Ysart weights with a stronger purple tint but again not to the degree of the Op's.

I agree with Christine's comment about the "chappie". It is known that Salavdor Ysart had some sulphides from the former Scottish John Ford company. I have seen several examples of a Robbie Burns sulphide in Ysart / Vasart weights and one example of "a lady". The Op's sulphide seems to differ in its general appearance. And together with the degree of the tint, these are two points that make me hesitant about my "Ysart possibility". However, the colours of the chips in the ground of the sulphide weight are very similar to what can be found in some Ysart items.

How about the bubbles? I have not seen an Ysart weight in the "harlequin" (bubbled over chips) pattern that also has a sulphide. But there might be some. Normally, Ysart weights have either six or eight bubbles - and four in a few early "layered" items by Paul. So the sulphide weight with six bubbles cannot be ruled out as "Ysart". The way that the colours have been "pulled" into a sort of loop and looking like a "six-armed starfish" from the top view, is not something I have seen in Ysart work (so far).

What about the base finish. The more I look at it, the more I think it is "too heavy looking" to be Ysart. Salvador's hovering butterfly weights, and also his "upright flower" weights are often large but the bases usually do not show the features seen in the Op's weight.

And the general look of the "clear" dome? It seems to be heavily striated in a way that is "rougher" than striations I have seen in several Ysart items.

I am still keeping an open mind, but I now favour continental Europe. But the strong purple tint (excess manganese in the mix) is something I cannot be sure of. I also need to check a couple of books, when I can find them.

Any other readers have a idea or two?
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 07, 2018, 02:31:48 PM
Just to add I bought this weight at an auction and the preceding lot was a butterfly paperweight with aventurine body and millefiori wings on a orange and black ground. The butterfly was in a square lattice / filigree twists box. I thought it could possibly be Ysart related like the sulphide weight but was outbid at £280, I think the person who won it had the same idea.

I know that has nothing to do with this weight really but they could have possibly came from the same source, who knows..
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: KevinH on March 07, 2018, 10:18:14 PM
The butterfly weight sounds interesting. Any chance of an online image for it?

It could be Ysart but, like the sulphide weight, it would need study of several features. For example, an "orange and black ground" sounds unusual for any Ysart weight, but it depends on how the colours are used, such as mottled, striped, etc. And "filigree twists used in a square (or diamond) pattern" could apply to weights possibly from Salvador Ysart.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 08, 2018, 07:15:08 AM
Hi Kevin, Yes I downloaded the picture from the auction website, I am allowed to upload photo's to the site that don't belong to me though? I could email you it if you wish?
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 08, 2018, 07:19:23 AM
And just to clarify the ground was black directly under the butterfly but orange outside the perimeter of the filigree twists , the colours weren't mixed.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: KevinH on March 08, 2018, 01:43:55 PM
Hi Staircase,

Regarding the image of the other weight, you are correct that a copy of the auction site image cannot be posted here for copyright reasons.

I have sent you a personal message with an email address that you can send a copy to. My  message has no subject line - sorry about that; I clicked send too quickly!
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 08, 2018, 02:51:33 PM
Hi Kevin,

The picture has been sent to the email you provided me.

Kind Regards,

Adam
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: w8happiness on March 08, 2018, 05:07:05 PM
Hello,
just a speculation,
the gentleman bears some resemblance to Alexander I Karadjordjevic, King of Yugoslavia, assassinated 9.10.1934 in Marseille- there is a big gold coin - 4 Ducats 1931 - showing him in the foreground with his wife... I cannot post a picture of the coin, but for comparison please look up "Alexander I Yugoslavia 4 Ducats 1931"- in the picture of the sulphide, the orders and medals are unclear, but the collar and the profile could fit... the time frame for a commissioned commemorative weight after 1934 would be reasonable, maybe another medal or coin was used as model,
 
hope this helps, cheers e.m.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 09, 2018, 09:56:50 AM
Here's the link to the picture of butterfly weight on auction site lot number 277

http://www.curranddewar.com/auction-list.cfm?srow=281&aid=195&sterm=&imgonly=0&mrows=40

Mod: Edited to add ... Click on the image to get a larger, pop-up view. Not much clearer, though, and it is the only image for the weight.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: KevinH on March 09, 2018, 01:21:41 PM
The butterfly weight was, in my opinion, made by Salvador Ysart.

When Salvador Ysart butterfly weights were first being recognized by collectors, they were all of the "3D" (floating) variety. But over time, and with certain features becoming easier to recognise, "2D" (flat) examples began to be seen. One of the main features (when taken with other features that separated them from non-Ysart items) was that the upper wings tended to be formed with a noticeably pointed outer tip. This feature separated them from Paul Ysart butterflies in which (for the vast majority) the upper tips were rounded. The weight in the linked auction clearly has the pointed tips feature.

The "square filigree twist" pattern and the rather unusual four orange sections on the black ground are in keeping with the sort of variation seen in the work Salavdor Ysart. Similar types of variation (even if not exactly like the orange patches) can be seen in several weights from the Ysart Brothers (Vasart) period, helping to confirm an attribution.

As has been said earlier, this does not really help with an attribution for the Sulphide weight. But is does show that with some perhaps obscure features we can make a good attribution for the butterfly weight whereas the Sulphide weight remains speculative.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: KevinH on March 09, 2018, 01:35:34 PM
Thanks, EJM, for adding the info about Alexander I Karadjordjevic, King of Yugoslavia and the suggestion that this might help to identify the sulphide.

Unfortunately, I think the profile lines of the face differ significantly enough to say that it does not represent the Yugoslavian king. In the queried sulphide, the nose line is basically straight, the lips rather prominent and the chin slopes back towards the neck. For the king, the nose line is more "Roman shaped", the lips quite flat and the chin is clearly prominent.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 09, 2018, 03:01:35 PM
Thanks for your detailed response Kevin, I really appreciate you took time to give the picture a look it's only a shame I never won the butterfly weight too :)

Also thank you E.M. for your reply but after having a good comparison I have to agree with Kevin I think there is only a very vague similarity between the sulphide bust and Alexander I on the coin
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on March 11, 2018, 07:37:41 AM
There is currently a Paul Ysart Rabbie Burns sulphide paperweight on eBay and the colour of glass is remarkably similar to my sulphide, here's the link ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Paul-Ysart-Sulphide-Paperweight-Robert-Burns/323114000362?hash=item4b3b185fea:g:vn0AAOSwK7pamr01

the last two photo's show the colour best
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: SophieB on March 11, 2018, 09:39:23 PM
Hi all,

I do not think the Ebay sulphide is by PY (the sulphide is not good enough IMHO). I suspect it is a Salvador Ysart though.

KevinH will tell us, I am sure.

SophieB
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: KevinH on March 12, 2018, 03:43:06 PM
I agree with Sophie.

But there are points about the weight that can lead people to think it is by Paul Ysart:
a) Paul Ysart is more widely known, than Salvador Ysart, to have made weights with sulphides
b) The garland of canes is very well formed
c) The base is flat polished

However, I have yet to see an "obvious" Paul Ysart weight with the Robert Burns sulphide, whereas I have seen several Salvador Ysart examples (which may have been made in the 1930s or at the Ysart Brothers (Vasart) works).

Points against this weight being by Paul Ysart are:
a) As Sophie pointed out, the sulphide is not "good enough" for work by Paul
b) The Burns sulphide is known in several weights attributed to Salvador Ysart
c) The cane used for the garland is well known in weights by Salvador / Ysart Brothers (Vasart)
d) In one of the eBay images, the ground is seen to be quite distorted

The flat polished base is a tricky feature for analysis. I do not know whether a flat-bed grinder was ever used at the Ysart Brothers (Vasart) works. But there are several known weights attributed to Salvador Ysart (as opposed to daily Ysart Brothers output) that have a flat polished base. Perhaps the indication here is that such weights were made by Salvador in the 1930s (or a bit earlier?)

An interesting feature is that the garland of canes is set well above the dark ground. That is a not a feature I have seen (at least, not that I recall) in Paul Ysart weights. But I do have a PY sulphide weight in which it could be said that the the canes "float" over the ground. However, the "ground" is not in the form usually known - it is actually a "cup" of dark powdered (but thick-looking) glass rising from the base and up the sides for a short distance. The canes are set a very short distance from the top edge of the dark "cup". Generally, where Paul used a coloured ground in a millefiori weight he set the canes directly on the ground.

Another point of interest is that some people may claim that the complex cane used for the garland of the eBay weight is good enough to have been made by Paul Ysart. Well, yes, that is true! A study of over 400 Ysart canes from weights and other items, all attributed to Salvador Ysart / Ysart Brothers (Vasart), shows that there are lots of very good complex canes which can be said to equal the quality of most canes by Paul Ysart. Checking against Paul Ysart work, it is known that some canes do appear in items by "both sides of the family". However, of the 400+ canes studied, only 14 were found to be matched in work by Paul - and the cane in the eBay weight is not, so far, one of them.

I'll be quiet now.  ;D
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: Nick77 on March 12, 2018, 07:26:40 PM
There is another of Salvador's weights with too much manganese coming up for auction here
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/tooveys/catalogue-id-srtoo10157/lot-02223711-045c-4f1c-8cf9-a89e0128eb0f (https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/tooveys/catalogue-id-srtoo10157/lot-02223711-045c-4f1c-8cf9-a89e0128eb0f)
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: w8happiness on July 05, 2019, 10:07:38 AM
Hi everyone,

late but true, finally the right person shown as sulphide was
tracked down; it also got a strong hint to the Ysart
family (roots in Spain) because the sulphide most likely shows

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_XIII_of_Spain

The form was taken from a medal, I have lost the link meanwhile but it will be possible
to refresh knowledge by a picture search for Alfonso XIII medal, I'm sure... 

...which leads me to assume that Ysart (the father?) made
it to commemorate  Alfonso's death after 1941... (still Moncrieff, but possibly pre-Ysart Brothers estd. in 1946)

The weight has been offered and is still for sale at the common auction platform for a while now,


best wishes e.m.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: w8happiness on July 05, 2019, 03:45:46 PM
The form was taken from a medal, I have lost the link meanwhile but it will be possible to refresh knowledge by a picture search for Alfonso XIII medal, I'm sure...

....finally found it again, but other examples surely exist,

https://www.medals-orders.com/spain/spain-africa-military-medal-morocco-1912-spanish-decoration-king-alfonso-xiii-miniature.html

best wishes e.m.
Title: Re: Sulphide Paperweight info needed
Post by: The Glass Staircase on July 06, 2019, 05:50:40 PM
Hi there,

Thank you for the additional information. That seems to make sense.

Kind Regards, Adam