Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: krsilber on March 15, 2008, 11:57:15 PM
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I'm a member of the ebay Porcelain, Glass and Pottery forum, and it drives me crazy that everyone seems to think virtually any opaque glass is "Bristol." Ebay is chock full of "Bristol" glass. I was wondering what the term means to you all. Are there narrow and broad definitions? Looking back through old threads, it appears the term is used mainly to describe a cobalt blue.
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Quoting from Ivo's, "glass faxct file a-z":
Bristol Blue - Greenish blue to dark blue lead glass, so named because its main colouring agent (zaffre, containing cobalt oxide) was produced in or imported via Bristol c. 1760-90 and c.1820-40.
The generalised term "Bristol Glass" has, particularly in the 20th century, been erroniously applied to all sorts of glassware, possibly because the port of Bristol was at one time a major outlet for glass and other wares being shipped in and out of the port. There was only a limited style of glassware actually made at Bristol - and it was not the Victorian or early 20th century items often referred to as "Bristol glass".
I gave some other comments, in reference to paperweights described as "Bristol" in this older message. (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,3456.0.html)
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Or the eBay sellers definition = "dark blue glass without a maker mark" ;)
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This link might help also:
http://www.bristol-glass.co.uk/xcart/home.php
There is also a 'Bristol Green' glass. I think Webb's referred to its 1970-80 output as Bristol (Blue and Green) glass (and it was marked :))
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I find that one confusing. Is it an actual glass factory or just a Bristol dealer who hijacked a fancy name for his shop? I am also not convinced that you could label cobalt blue, selenium red and pink ("cranberry") as Bristol?
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Hehe that company was set up to use the term Bristol Blue as its name and make 'genuine' Bristol Blue souvenirs. It was a part of Nazeing Glass but now that they have separated the sites perhaps they sold it?
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It is a glass factory - they used to have photos showing work in progress. But I suppose it is a term that has been used & misused over the years.
I had always thought the term derived from blue glass made in Bristol, but having a significant amount of gold chloride in the mix... :-[
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I had always thought the term derived from blue glass made in Bristol
Apparently it refers to glass with a blue colourant imported via Bristol. So Bristol Blue was made in Sunderland, in the Midlands and in Ireland.
To complicate things, there is another misnomer for Bristol - the opaque painted vases from the end of the Victorian era. These are invariably Bohemian, but because there has been a glass industry in Bristol until the beginning of the 19th ct. which decorated milk glass, the name stuck.
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Sure, it was my mistaken belief that the blue related to the glass mix.
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When I was young my grandmother used what she called the 'bristol eye bath' when eyes needed bathing. I remember her having a dark green one as well as the blue one. Would these have been made in a Bristol glass factory, or was the connection the colour of the glass? steph. ps. What a wonderful world this site has revealed to me............Thanks folks.
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Mentions in literature:
Percy Bates wrote an article in 1905: An Eighteenth Century Industry: Bristol Enamel Glass.
E M Elville includes Bristol Glass in Paperweights and Other Glass Curiosities 1954 and later.
Moore 1935 in Old Glass European and American
Schwind, Arlene Palmer, Weeden, Cyril and Witt, Cleo (1984), "Bristol Glass": 94 pages 18 colour 28 b/w.
Witt, Cleo (1984), "Introducing Bristol Glass": 32 pages 8 b/w 18 colour.
Bedford, John (1964), "Bristol and Other Coloured Glass": 64 pages b/w colour.
Pountney, W. J. (1938), "A Short History of Bristol - Cut Glass": 8 page booklet 4 b/w.
But apart from those are no obvious specific references to Bristol blue. Bedford does debunk the myths in his book, perhaps someone has a copy of that to hand.
I suspect that this is just a folklore that has never been used in any serious study. It might be found in some of the Glass Encyclopaedia of course.
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"It might be found in some of the Glass Encyclopaedia of course."
Indeed, it is. Newman's An Illustrated Dictionary of Glass has entries for Bristol blue glass ("Blue-coloured glassware, made in England at Bridstol and at many other factories furing the 18th century, but often all such ware is erroneously attributed to Bristol...") and Bristol glassware: "Various types and styles of glassware made at Bristol, in western England, which was the site in the 17th and 18th centuries of many glassworks..."
Very interesting that you all confine your definition to blue (and green?) glass, or glass that was made with a colourant imported at Bristol. The latter seems like a particularly tough thing to track or prove!
"To complicate things, there is another misnomer for Bristol - the opaque painted vases from the end of the Victorian era. These are invariably Bohemian, but because there has been a glass industry in Bristol until the beginning of the 19th ct. which decorated milk glass, the name stuck."
Yep, this would be the common view apparently held by many of my copatriots, except it often extends to opaque glasses of other colors. In fact, until joining you all, I don't remember ever seeing any transparent blue glass described as Bristol! But I don't understand the "invariably Bohemian" part. Surely some of it is English (or American, or French), though not necessarily from Bristol.
I've also heard someone confine the term to opaque glass with a particular kind of pontil-less foot.
Americans! ::) ;)
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Believe me, this has been an item of extensive research and no specific glass industry has shown up in the city of Bristol since the early 1800s.
The term Bristol blue is an adjective referring to a colour and is specifically English - not an attribution to "many glass houses around the city of Bristol" - we could not find a single one.
Bristol decoration on milk glass is well recorded - please check the books Frank listed. What was imported at the end of the 19th century is of a different style, weight, decoration, colour and market. These should not be confused.
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There we go Mr Newman ;)
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The import of blue colorant through Bristol is actually probably an easy thing to track. England is a small place, there weren't/aren't that many ports.
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http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=58920
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Boy, you English sure managed to produce a lot of great glass for such a small country!
I found a cheap copy of Bedford's book, so maybe that will help clarify things for me. How nice to have people around who can suggest appropriate reading - thanks, Frank! ;D
(On the other hand, the last thing I need is to diversify my interests more, when I can't manage to master those I have! ::))
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Amazon.com currently has two copies of Bristol Glass by Witt, Weeden & Schwind (1986 edition) - although prices are "from $59.85". [My second-hand copy of the 1984 initial publication cost £9.95!
Also there are many available copies of John Bedford's Bristol and Other Coloured Glass starting at just $3.88.
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Kristi,
this is the UK! we invented everything over here, i see you are from the US, How nice that
you have worked out how to make nice glass , over there at last! ;)
He He He ;D
Only joking!
Cheers
Andy 8)
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Yeah, as if you invented glass! I suppose you invented the wheel, too? ;D
We caught up quick, though. The best of our ABP beats the pants off anything you guys did for rich cut. ;) ;D That could have been a style thing... I just heard someone say that at the time the British despised American Brilliant glass because it was gaudy. Is that true? That would explain why the super sparkly never caught on in Europe at the time.
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Yeah, as if you invented glass! I suppose you invented the wheel, too? ;D
Yup! Sure did! ;D
We caught up quick, though. The best of our ABP beats the pants off anything you guys did for rich cut. ;) ;D That could have been a style thing... I just heard someone say that at the time the British despised American Brilliant glass because it was gaudy. Is that true? That would explain why the super sparkly never caught on in Europe at the time.
I thought it was because of the glass tax that all the best cutters left the UK and went to America? >:D
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Actually, my impression is that it was because of higher wages here (part of what made a tariff necessary to compete with the Europeans), but you make a good point. From Sinclaire and Spillman's The Complete Cut and Engraved Glass of Corning: "The 1880 census showed that 22 of Corning's 40 glass cutters had been born in Europe, 21 of them in England or Ireland." That's an early census, though. By 1905 there were 490 cutters and 33 engravers in Corning.
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Just to add to the breadth of the actual makers of modern Bristol Blue (catalogue 1977) by Thomas Webb & Sons, in the blurb they credit the colours to being imported from Saxony. Bristol Blue, Bristol Green and Bristol Amethyst. They state these were originally made in Bristol in the 18th and 19th centuries. All labelled as Bristol Glass. ::)
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I got Bedford's Bristol and Other Coloured Glass and had to laugh at the first sentence in the intro, "'Bristol' is probably the most richly misused word in glass fancying."
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Hi, this is a fascinating post. I'm interested in the milk & custard glass ware attributed to Bristol Glass. May i ask if there's a way to tell if it is BG?
I ask as I've recently got an odd shaped cream coloured custard glass vase, I'm trying to find out about.
Sorry, unable to load photo atm
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The short answer is that it probably isn't. There was a glass industry producing some fancy goods in the 18th C but by the 19th C when most so-called Bristol glass was made the glass industry was window glass and bottles.
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Thanks Lustrestone:) Its all new to me. I'd not heard of Bristol glass before today. There's a wide variety of glass described as Bristol glass I've found, mostly the clear blue stuff but also a lot of custard glass. i wondered how they know its Bristol glass or if that was a kind of generic term used for any odd custard & deep blue clear glass.
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Bristol glass is a misnomer used in the USA for painted "custard" type glass, usually Bohemian. Bristol blue and Bristol green are merely describing the colours cobalt blue and a dark green. The belief is that the minerals used to produce these colours were imported to the UK in large quantities through Bristol.
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Very interesting. Its a lot more complicated than it first appears! & i thought it just meant it was made in Bristol. Is painted custard glass, Lustres for example, as likely to be Bohemian as English or French?
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Enamelled glass could be from anywhere. The term Bristol glass should be avoided unless you are referring to the modern products from http://www.bristol-glass.co.uk/ and I believe those are marked
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Think I'll steer clear of Bristol glass. lol. Thanks for the info. There's so much to learn in the glass world!
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quote.............. "There's so much to learn in the glass world!" - very true, but so much better than being just another collector of plates ;) ;D ;)
I'd not really been aware of this thread, but very interesting to read........ my thoughts are that books are probably the worst of culprits for perpetuating errors and myths.
I don't suppose there are many people here with a copy of Daisy Wilmer's 'Early English Glass' (1910), which the lady used, as much as anything else, to promote the glass collections of her parents and others.
The author speaks a lot about 'Bristol glass' - clear and cut as well as coloured, plus reference to Michael Edkins coloured enameled painting on opaque white glass.
Although he seems to have started his working life in Birmingham, it's very possible that the knowledge that Edkins is best remembered for working in Bristol on 'opaque white glass and ceramics', is why people still speak of Bristol glass when referring to opaque white glass, although there's no guarantee that the glass he was painting on was made in Bristol - but the interpretation stuck, and seems to still.
Can't imagine there were many women authors of glass at the beginning of the C20, and Wilmer, like most authors of academic subjects at that time omits any bibliography or reference sources for her attributions/provenance, but you can imagine collectors taking her words to heart, and repeating her qualifications as to what was or wasn't Bristol glass, which was simply anything she considered had been made in Bristol... clear, cut, blown, moulded etc.
I had written the above and then looked at Ivo Haanstra's words on the subject, although appreciate he has already commented above somewhere.
From Ivo's 'Miller's Glass fact file a - z' .... a pocket book he says............
"Bristol Glass.... A type of opaline named after the town in Great Britain where it was first produced. It was imported from there the late 1700's. Also made in France, Germany, Italy, USA and Czechoslovakia. Very difficult to attribute correctly to a manufacturer. Bristol glass is often decoated (printer's typo) with cold enamel painting."
So it appears the origin of the description 'Bristol glass' probably has nothing to do with blue glass as in Bristol blue, and far more likely to be relate solely to opaque white glass wares imported/exported/painted in Bristol in the latter part of the C18.
P.S. as Benny Hill used to say....... my wife's left Bristol................................................................ and gone to live in Hull. ;)
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Hi Paul.
Lol, I'd not heard that Benny Hill quote before..Hulls a nice place:)
I like old plates and have a few (meaning a cupboard full!:) usually, though not always, they're easily attributed but glass is in a league of its own..it seems any time i find out anything at all it just leads to more questions!
Thanks for the info, what an interesting sounding book you have there, I'd love to see it. Illustrates how easily things can be misunderstood, until they're thought of as facts.
I have a couple of bits of painted glass, ones by Bagley the other unknown, it seems crazy to attribute all unknown cold painted glass to Bristol Glass!
I'd like to thank the OP for this fascinating thread.
Thank you
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Currently the book seems not uncommon on Abe Books, with several under a tenner. I wouldn't recommend it from a serious point of view, more as a curio really, although it's always interesting to see how people view a subject from their own contemporary position - it's difficult to do otherwise, since we're all creatures of our own time, and where we speak of the older days as Edwardian, Wilmer's take on that sort of thing means late Georgian.
The pictures are poor and b. & w. as you can imagine, but interesting to see how our knowledge of glass has changed over the past hundred years. For me it isn't entirely without use, since it does lean toward drinking glasses and there was a little info. on thumb print ales in particular that was of interest. :)
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Interesting book though. Like you say its nice to see old contemporary views of things. I have a glass book from the '50s, full of grainy black & white photos &, like yours, mostly concerned with drinking glasses, but still is interesting to see.
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possibly some of the ceramics collectors know this label - it's on a cake stand that I picked up this morning.
Thought it worth sharing - obviously the factory was aware of the meaning of Bristol glass i.e. opaque white wares, although not sure if Michael Edkins decorated this particular one. ;)
Apologies for posting a ceramics item in Glass, but just thought the label a coincidence after our chats - can be deleted if wished.
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quote.............. "There's so much to learn in the glass world!" - very true, but so much better than being just another collector of plates ;) ;D ;)
I'd not really been aware of this thread, but very interesting to read........ my thoughts are that books are probably the worst of culprits for perpetuating errors and myths.
As a manufacturer of Bristol Blue glass since 1978, may I tie up a few loose ends?
The term originates around 1760 when a Bristol Chemist called Wiliaim Cookworthy started importing cobalt oxide from Saxony and supplying it to glassmakers. Only a few grammes are needed to turn a pot of glass a deep rich blue colour, almost black, if the glass is thick. Isaac Jacobs and The Ricketts family , Jacob, Henry and William, all used it.
Other oxides allowed them to make amythyst (maganese oxide)and a bright green glass (Chromium oxide ). Samples of all these are on view in the Bristol Museum who we supplied for many years with reproductions.
Bristol blue became a generic name - like Cheddar cheese which does not all come from the Cheddar gorge.
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This was identified as Bristol so it did not only come in white. Not sure what the numbers on the bottom mean.
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Your vase is not Bristol. It's Bohemian and Harrach. The marks, style, enamelling and colour are all typical Harrach
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Came across this curious book this evening (online version - not full print) by a J.H. Sir Yoxhall
'Collecting Old Glass English and Irish' Online link here:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Collecting_Old_Glass_English_and_Irish/ZA1zEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=glass+engraving+england+1850&pg=PT47&printsec=frontcover
Possibly printed 1916 J. H. Yoxhall
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/collecting-old-glass-english-and-irish/author/j-h-yoxall/
The last few pages available in the link give his views on Bristol glass. In addition he shows a picture of what I think is a millefiori 'pepper box' and says it's Bristol glass. Also goes on to say 'Bristol produced the finest glass paper-weights ... and at the base of these you see flowers of coloured glass,'
And also appears to say that Bristol made glasses with coloured spirals in the stem.
:o rarities :-\