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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: sph@ngw on January 04, 2007, 05:52:29 PM

Title: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on January 04, 2007, 05:52:29 PM
Flushed with the success of recreating some circa 1720 bottles with prunts for Glenmorangie's Ardbegg brand, we plan to celebrate the 400th anniversay of our founding in Vauxhall (Sir Edward Zouche's factory 1612) by attempting to make 10 replicas of the world-famous Portland vase!
Yes I know Philip Pargeter and John Northwood did it around 1870,( see Corning museum), as did Josiah Wedgwood, but they did not know the exact chemical formula the Romans used.
Now, since the last repair done by the British museum, and working closely with them, we hope to produce as faithful a facsimile (well without the glue and cracks of the original) as can be done!
I personally think it was a drinking vessel originally not a funery vase and that it had a base (no, not the disc found inside that appears to be Venetian - those damn Murano artists get everywhere!) according to the latest micro-spectrometry results! I reckon a Doge wanted a Venetian version alongside it with his portrait on it!
Anyway, any thoughts, comments, (Yes, we are crackers to try it, but we have two new small furnaces, as expertise in Bristol blue and some very talented keen glassmakers who enjoy a challenge!), or good wishes would be welcome!
Stephen @ Nazeing Glass Works!
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on January 04, 2007, 06:06:21 PM
Indeed, you get my good wishes. Very interesting project!

Can you clarify the bit about the Venetian disk?
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on January 04, 2007, 06:06:52 PM
By the way it was named after the Duke of Portland one of its many owners whose family sold it to the British Museum. I'm just reading a new book about it!
Not Portland, Oregan for our US members info! :-*
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: josordoni on January 04, 2007, 06:07:15 PM
Good Luck!  I look forward to the picture here when you have the first one made.

I say the first one with my tongue in my cheek ,  :o  I am wondering how many goes you may need to get it right! 



Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on January 04, 2007, 06:09:01 PM
Let me bring the book in and |I will quote exactly but a cameo disc of similar style was found in the bottom of the vase and thought for many years to be part of a broken foot!
see www.britishmuseum.co.uk/portlandvase
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Sue C on January 04, 2007, 06:10:03 PM
Good luck Stephen, it's a mighty task to take on. hope all go's well.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on January 04, 2007, 06:13:41 PM
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/science/portland%20vase/sr-portland-p3.htm
Sorry here is the correct URL. It must "perhaps" the most famous ( infamous) piece of glass in history aowing to the fabulous names of the owners and spectators of it, including the Irish vandal who deliberately smashed it......as if we glassmakers do not get blamed for producing such fragile products that they do not bounce!
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Max on January 04, 2007, 07:56:36 PM
Fascinating.  I bet you're pleased you don't have to make a piece of cameo glass too.  :o  Very best wishes with your project.  :)

(going off to discover what antimony is now...)
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: KevinH on January 04, 2007, 10:50:58 PM
This sounds like a wonderful project and will no doubt be a great learning experience for all involved. I saw a TV program some years ago of a replica being produced (was that one for, or by, the British Museum? My memory fails me on who it was who did it - maybe it was you good folk at "ngw"?)

Are you considering recording the process on film / video?
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on January 04, 2007, 11:57:59 PM
This is history in the making, hence the move to this forum to ensure it remains.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: David E on January 05, 2007, 10:07:49 AM
Couldn't agree more - preserve it for posterity.

What will be fascinating is how the project progresses so, as someone mentioned earler, it would very nice to see a documentary of this if at all possible.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Pip on January 05, 2007, 01:35:57 PM
Stephen, you are a busy bee  ;D - what with the glass museum and everything else I'm wondering if you get more hours in your day than the rest of us! Anyway, the best of luck with this project - it sounds very interesting and I look forward to seeing the results.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on January 05, 2007, 05:33:36 PM
"If you want a job done, give it to a busy person" Sorry unable to find the source of this quote.
I am giving us 5 years to complete the project, and yes I have heard of another attempt to copy it and hoped this Forum might locate who and where?
The Museum (of 20th Century British Domestic Glass) is scheduled to open late Spring (end of May). I have just about finished collecting around 2,000 pieces currently being photographed and catalogued. The shelving and lighting is on order, the garden is almost completed, and we are working on the signage and simple leaflets,and some "new", old notepaper.
Main problem, who should I invite to open it?
Any suggestions welcome !!!!!
David Queensberry ex prof of RCA was a thought as he has known us for 40 years, ( Can't ask Camilla as we have a photo of Diana being presented with a Bristol blue decanter!) :-[
regards, Stephen
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: josordoni on January 05, 2007, 05:40:05 PM
"If you want a job done, give it to a busy person"

Well  Maggie Thatcher said

"In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman."

Will that do?
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: pamela on January 05, 2007, 07:19:14 PM
I had never heard of this Portland vase earlier, but now I see what a challenge you are talking about. Good luck Stephen, I wish you will be successful with all your skill :)

Pamela
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on January 05, 2007, 08:02:27 PM
The only glass copies were one enamelled and a handful of printed ones in the 19th century. The most famous copy being Wedgwood's http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/grtr/ho_94.4.172.htm
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Carolyn Preston on January 05, 2007, 10:47:34 PM
Main problem, who should I invite to open it?
Any suggestions welcome !!!!!
David Queensberry ex prof of RCA was a thought as he has known us for 40 years, ( Can't ask Camilla as we have a photo of Diana being presented with a Bristol blue decanter!) :-[

But someone that might appreciate said picture might be one or both of the Princes, Harry and William.  :) Nothing against David Queensberry, of course.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on January 05, 2007, 11:13:00 PM
You left it a bit late but why not approach the Lord Chancellor's office, lay on the 400 years history... and get whoever they think most appropriate. Failing that you could ask our Bernard (Cavalot).
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Pip on January 06, 2007, 10:46:54 AM
Stephen, you mentioned a while back that Ronald Stennett-Willson would probably be attending - why not ask him to open the museum?  He gets my vote anyway ...
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: potty-de-verre on January 18, 2007, 04:09:00 PM
I was very surprised to see two exciting items on my infrequent visits to the forum. Both in one e-mail. Well it was before breakfast and impossible things do happen.

Firstly, another go at cracking the art of copying the Portland vase. It would be interesting to know how far off the original glass composition Wedgwood was but I suspect knowing the composition may only be half the battle. Good luck and if you make enough spares perhaps you could raffle one off to raise funds for your new museum.

Secondly (and here I got a bit confused but excited) unless I’ve miss-read it you seem to be able to trace your history back nearly 400 years! (Not sure where that leaves the 75th Anniversary celebrations the other year, apart from being very late.)

Anyway, surely this must make Nazeing just about the oldest, continuous, glass maker in the world still surviving? I had a quick flick through the wonderful Lesley Jackson book and could only find Kosta (founded 1742) nearing that sort of age. So a bit of a newcomer in comparison.

I don’t own a copy but perhaps you could contact the Guinness Book of Records, if you are not already in there, and get them to open the museum for you. I’m not sure if Norris McWhirter has retired but he’s quite famous and if you could get the Guinness Book of Records involved I’m sure you’d get a lot of free publicity/Guinness.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on January 18, 2007, 04:23:21 PM
Spring chickens really, Hartmann goes back to 1600 and Bayer were established in 1570. But it is rare to find any company that has such a history under one name or structure. Gets worse in the 20th C as so many companies disappear and just the name gets sold on. But Nazeing as such were established as a distinct glassworks in 1928. Certainly a great success story for the modern age of glass manufacturers.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Glen on January 18, 2007, 05:40:26 PM
The only glass copies were one enamelled and a handful of printed ones in the 19th century. The most famous copy being Wedgwood's http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/grtr/ho_94.4.172.htm


What about John Northwood's? Neither enamelled nor printed. It was cameo and took him a reported three years to complete. His son, Harry, was also skilled at cameo glass work.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on January 18, 2007, 07:53:46 PM
Weird I forgot that one Glen. It is of course illustrated on p205 of Hadjamach, British Glass 1800-1914.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on January 18, 2007, 07:58:05 PM
Egg in face 1 - Glen, read Stephen's original post.

Egg in face 2 - Frank, re-read Stephen's original post like you did the first time.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Glen on January 18, 2007, 09:58:26 PM
I think we need to give John Northwood a bit more kudos regarding his incredible achievement back in the 1870s, and also put Stephen’s impressive and laudable aim into fuller perspective. John Northwood earned himself a place in glass history (well he did for me, anyhow) for his superb recreation of the Portland Vase. He is generally credited with being the first person to revive the “ancient” art of cameo glass (the original Portland vase is 2000 years old).

In the 1870s, Northwood was commissioned to undertake the work, which took him three years to complete. I believe that there was a heart stopping moment when the almost complete vase was washed in warm water and split in two. Fortunately it was mended and completed.

Almost seven years ago I visited Wheeling in West Virginia – the town that John Northwood’s son, Harry (also a famous glass maker) made his home, after leaving England. While we were there we were privileged to visit the home of the late Elizabeth (Betty) Robb, grand daughter of Harry Northwood and great aunt of David and Mary McKinley (David is the owner of the New Northwood Art Glass).

Miss Robb was a delight. She was a charming lady with fond memories of her grandfather who had obviously meant a great deal to her. He was a focal figure in her young days and she mused on the fact that even though he must have been very busy running the glass factory, he always had time for her. Particularly she recalled a time when the circus came to Wheeling and she stood hand in hand with her grandpa, watching the elephants go by.

The walls of Miss Robb’s house were adorned with Harry Northwood’s paintings and other mementos; precious memories from a by-gone age. But one special piece of art gave an insight into the real Harry Northwood, who was clearly his father’s son. The item in question was an exquisite cameo of Shakespeare that had been carved by Harry at the tender age of 22, just after he emigrated from England and set up his first home in the USA. It is a superb piece of glass, just an inch or two in height, with fine detail indicative of much patient work. The late William Heacock reported on this incredible item in his Glass Collecting journal (and also in his book on Harry Northwood). Heacock also noted that Berry Wiggins had found the actual document in an 1882 trade journal that described the item thus: “It surpassed in artistic design, fine workmanship and beauty of effect any work by any other process. Mr Northwood came from England less than a year ago and brought this new idea with him.”

The cameo was kept inside a showcase in Miss Robb’s home – she kindly unlocked it for me, removed it and carefully placed it in my hands. Truthfully, I was trembling. It was a privilege to hold the cameo – it fits snugly into the palm of one’s hand – and know that Harry Northwood actually held it too, while creating this work of art. We have a slide of Harry’s cameo but it’s not easy to show it here. The best photo I have seen of the item is in Heacock’s “Harry Northwood The Early Years” – you can see the little round box that it is kept in too.

If you’re interested in seeing Miss Robb and the McKinleys, here’s the photo we took:

Top row, left to right:
David McKinley (descendant of John Northwood) and his wife, Mary. On the right, Steve Thistlewood
Bottom row, left to right:
Miss Robb, and me (Glen)

http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Miss_Robb_Wheeling.html

Stephen, I wish you good fortune and much luck in this amazing challenge – you will be making footprints in glass history.

Glen
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: nigel benson on January 20, 2007, 02:16:55 AM

It seems to me that there are potentially two threads here; one discussing the Portland vase and Stephen’s super idea to attempt Nazeing’s own version of the vase, and, another about the date of the origins of the company. The new date of 1612 must be a major breakthrough in knowledge about the company.

Yet, like the historians that have worked closely with the factory, I was under the impression that the Nazeing Company began in 1928 with the purchase of the farmhouse and land known as “The Goats”. Geoff Timberlake actually proved the links back into approximately the mid nineteenth century with the Kempton family that worked in the Lambeth and Southwark boroughs of London, but could not find any leads to take him any further back.

Has there been a breakthrough that takes the historical thread back to 1612? If so it would be great to hear about it in detail.

Below, in brief, is what Timberlake found and is taken from:

“75 Years of Diverse Glass-making to the World”,
G Timberlake, 2003:

Chapter 1, Page 1, Para 2: “At this point in time there was no history of glass making in the Kempton family, Charles Henry’s father was in the hat trade; therefore the son’s initiation into glass making must have been through his father-in-law (Henry Hall).”

Timberlake then goes on to say that there was a Henry Hall working at Whitefriars in 1837.

So does the company of Nazeing trace through to Charles Kempton (C1870), or to his father-in-law Henry Hall (1837)? Once the history goes into Whitefriars surely it is no longer the company of Kempton, nor by implication of the later, Nazeing Glass Works?

Chapter 1, Page 1, para 4: “The only documentary evidence that Charles Henry was ever employed at a Glass Works is found on the birth certificate of his third son, Richard where Charles Henry’s occupation is given as “Labourer in a Glass Works” (he left this employment in 1869 and set up a lamp warehouse business at 57 Oakley Street, Lambeth). It is possible that this (glass labourer) might be in the employment of James Powell and Sons, as Wendy Evans records ‘labourers’ at Whitefriars.”

Again the history begins within another company – again it is Whitefriars.

In another piece, written by R. Boville Wright, the first paragraph says: "Glass making has been closely associated with Vauxhall in Surrey for some 300 years, the original works being opened by Sir Edward Zouche in 1612. The factory seems to have had a varied history, but eventually became Dawson Bowles & Co., and was carried on under that name till it closed down at the beginning of the nineteenth century."

He goes onto say: "Some years later Charles Kempton (grandfather of the present Cedric A. Kempton), turning his attention to coloured glass making, opened a new factory in Wickham Street, not far removed from the original site."

This seems to be a geographical link and not a continuous historical link.

So the question I have is, Have you managed to prove the link back to “Sir Edward Zouche's factory 1612”, Stephen? This would be fantastic!!

Whether one or two threads, both are hugely interesting pieces of news.

Nigel
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: KevinH on January 20, 2007, 08:21:39 PM
The Northwood copy of the Portland Vase has been mentioned here.

But as far as I can see, nobody has mentioned Jospeh Locke's copy for Richardsons. This is covered in (at least) D R Guttery's From Broad-Glass to Cut Crystal - A History of the Stourbridge Glass Industry (page 143) and Christopher Woodall Perry's The Cameo Glass of Thomas and George Woodall (page 99) and, of course, Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 (explicitly on page 119).

Trouble is ... I don't think I've seen any text (let alone images) categorically stating that Locke's copy was in fact a cameo version of the same size and colours as the original.

Oh, and when it comes to copies, Northwood also produced one in clear glass with engraved scenes. And Richardsons made many transfer printed versions of the scene but applied to vases that were not at all the same shape as the Portland Vase (ref Hajdjamach).
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on April 01, 2007, 10:33:47 PM
It seems the earliest copies of this vase were made in 18th century Rome by the Gem Engraver Giovanni Pichler. They were moulded, but I am not sure if in glass... ::)

Source: Cameo Incrustation isbn 0 933756 14 3
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: mrvaselineglass on April 02, 2007, 02:46:45 AM
Regarding old factories still in existence:  CRISTALLERIES ROYALES DE CHAMPAGNE has been in continuous operation since 1666, and glass has been made in that region since the 1300's.  here is a link to their history:  http://www.bayel-cristal.com/b_eng200.htm (http://www.bayel-cristal.com/b_eng200.htm)
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on July 07, 2011, 10:26:57 AM
Did Nazeing continue the project? Having seen another planned for 2012 in News section, http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,41681.msg231148.html#msg231148

Although now closed, there was one Czech glassworks that dated back to 1400s at the time of this thread.

Hopefully Nazeing version being in non-toxic glass of course! Now that would be a marketing coup!
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on July 08, 2011, 06:13:29 AM
I hope I haven't missed something in the reading but I couldn't see mention of this in the thread - in CH 20th Century British Glass page 78 there is a pic of a vase done by Steve Bradley entitled 'The Portland Vase blown and carved in white glass on blue, by Steve Bradley 1990'.
m
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Ivo on July 08, 2011, 08:16:51 AM
I think that must have been the one which was made for the BBC documentary on the restauration of the Portland vase, circa 1990. First the whole restauration process is shown (including the measuring, taking apart and rematching) after which the original process of making the vase was recreated in a glass studio in the US to better understand the manufacturing process and restauration procedure. I have the film on a hard drive but unable to play it due to some Windows error reading the file format. But I remember the title was (surprise) "The Portland Vase".
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: scimiman on July 08, 2011, 09:53:15 AM
There are one or two video pieces on Youtube regarding the vase.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on July 08, 2011, 01:27:14 PM
Ivo, it doesn't say that in CH 20th Century British Glass book? or refer to it.  Although it may be the one.
  It just says
'impressed by the work of George and Thomas Woodall, Steve Bradley started his love affair with cameo by copying the original Portland Vase as a way of coming to grips with the technique before creating the magnificent Arthur Vase and the Lancelot and Guinevere Plate'.
and wow....have you seen those pieces mentioned above?  they are also absolutely amazing.
m
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Ivo on July 08, 2011, 02:20:57 PM

Maybe it was a different studio altogether, I am unable to remember names after 20 years. I found the details of film I mentioned:

Quote
The third and current reconstruction took place from 1 June 1988 and was completed on 1 October 1989 by Nigel Williams and Sandra Smith (and overseen by David Akehurst (CCO of Glass and Ceramics) who assessed the vase's condition during its appearance as the focal piece of an international exhibition of Roman glass and, at the conclusion of the exhibition, it was decided to go ahead with reconstruction and stabilisation. The treatment had scholarly attention and press coverage. The vase was photographed and drawn to record the position of fragments before dismantling; the BBC filmed the conservation process. All previous adhesives had failed, so to find one that would last, conservation scientists at the museum tested many adhesives for long term stability. Finally, an epoxy resin with excellent ageing properties was chosen. Reassembly of the vase was made more difficult as the edges of some fragments were found to have been filed down during the restorations. Nevertheless, all of the fragments were replaced except for a few small splinters. Areas that were still missing were gap-filled with a blue or white resin.

Source: Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on July 08, 2011, 03:16:06 PM
I think then a different piece?  so one is the reconstruction of the vase or re-restoration process.
The Steve Bradley piece is another example of a copy of the vase.   :-[ I'm not being pedantic, just wanted to add this to the thread for reference.
m
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: KevinH on July 08, 2011, 06:18:16 PM
I also saw the doumentary film that Ivo mentioned. But I cannot remember whether the making of a copy of the Portland Vase was part of that film.

But I do recall seeing something on tv which was about the making of a copy of the vase - and pretty much all the main stages were covered, along with commentary about the difficulties and ideas on how certain parts were originally formed. I am fairly sure that the copy was made by a London glassworker, but I cannot remember who!
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on July 08, 2011, 09:22:20 PM
Although now closed, there was one Czech glassworks that dated back to 1400s at the time of this thread.

Chribska 1427 earliest mention in literature.

As to the PV, it seems to be one of the most copied bits of glass since the WF brick thingies. Amused to read that someone made a P V copy as a student piece.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on July 08, 2011, 09:57:10 PM
Ok a bit more info on the Steve Bradley Portland Vase version (and sorry for not reading more before posting previously), from CH 20th Century British Glass page 78 caption to plate 151(Steve Bradley's version of the Portland Vase)-
'.....Steve Bradley was inspired to attempt to make a version of the Roman cameo vase in the British Museum after seeing it as a subject of a Horizon television programme.  In his version of the vase, he has accurately reproduced the amphora shape which the original is thought to have had before alteration'

Elsewhere in the book page 79 under the fabulous Guinevere Plate blown and carved by Steve Bradley in 1990 - it refers to the fact that he worked as the glass-blower technician at the Royal College of Art.  His job was to blow blanks for the students and the above plate was actually blown for one of them but discarded quote 'in the departmental rubbish skip'.  It's blown in several layers.  He retrieved it and used it for The Guinevere Plate.  So yes a 'cameo-glass student' at that time I guess, but not entirely a glass student if you see what I mean, clearly an amazing glass artist.
Ooooh I love that section in the book and would love to own a piece of cameo glass :mrgreen:
m
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on July 08, 2011, 11:14:44 PM
Buy one of the Tip Galle's, all the joys of owning a small fortune in glass at a fraction of the price.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on February 25, 2013, 05:42:15 PM
This is a copy of the Portland Vase done as an  engraving (on blue over clear overlay I believe) done by Franz Zach in 1862
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/copy-portland-vase#.USuiIDCeN_U
added for reference re the discussion on Portland vase copies

m
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on May 21, 2013, 04:42:28 PM
May I just add here that Nazeing Glass were going to reproduce the Portland vase, but the 2007 recession put paid to that ambition and that we decided having stopped making lead crystal in April 2003, to concentrate on developing a better  non toxic crystal than out barium crystal that had most of the properties of lead, which we achieved and patented in May 2012. It looks like lead crystal, has a ring like lead crystal, can be cut and polished like lead crystal but has no lead! We were going to call it "Non Toxic Crystal" but have been threatened with legal action by the big lead crystal manufacturers who are afraid that a panic will occurr and we could be scaremongering and that lead crystal is perfectly safe now, so have dropped non toxic in the title and gone for "Improvements in crystal glass" in our patent title.

Regarding the longevity, we have always stated that we were the last glass company left in Vauxhall when the Kemptons moved out to Nazeing in 1928, an area whose glass making history goes back to 1612 and Sir Edward Zouche's works- never that we were directly descended!
But....But.. and this is STOP press!..
tTe latest research proves that Charles Henry Kempton who founded the Albert Glass Works in 1874, was the son in law of Henry Hall  profession Glassblower- the marriage certificate original I have states this
This Henry Hall we believe was the direct descendant ( grandson?) of Stephen Hall who owned both the Falcon Stairs Glassworks- later Apsl;ey Pellat AND Whitefriars Glass.
He bought the glass works by Whitefriars Dock circa 1770 from Carey Stafford and it appears "had considerable expertise in mixing coloured glass" . This comes from the superb book on Whitefriars Glass by Wendy Evans , Catherine Ross adn Alex Werner, Museum of London.

My latest research seems to conclude that some pieces in Cryril Manleys excellent book of "Decorative Victorian Glass" is in fact London made and some pieces are by Kemmptons, as they appear in adverts of the 1880's!
All will be revealed in my forthcoming paper, "Peering through the smog and obscurity of Victorian Glass makers."

Finally regarding family glassmakers, what about the Riedel family? They show a document dated 1756 on their offical website........and how do you define family? Our claim is three families, Hall, Kempton and Pollock-Hill ( 2 generations) over nearly 300 years, not Riedel -one family!
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on May 21, 2013, 04:47:56 PM
Re: Portland vase.
incidentally I was delighted when Richard Golding and Ian Dury and Terri Collidge decided to take up the Portland Vase challenge for Stourbridge as the first replica was made there by Philip Pargeter and John Northwood, and I attended the official unveiling at Hagley Hall in June 2012.
It was something that needed to be done again, over 100 years later, and the final result is excellent and a great tribute to the craftsmanship still in Stourbridge.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on May 21, 2013, 09:53:10 PM
Thank you for the update :)  will you let us know how we can order a copy of your document please?
many thanks
m
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Frank on May 22, 2013, 09:31:25 AM
Stephen, you can distribute any papers using a free service facility on www.glass-study.org - you can provide papers to visitors free of charge or paid with payment direct to your own paypal account. Should you later amend the paper, downloaders can get the updated version.
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge!The Oldest continious glass factory in theWorld
Post by: sph@ngw on August 24, 2020, 04:14:30 PM
Sadly, no not Nazeing  tracing back to 1612,
But my contender is Glasshutte  fabrik von Poschinger in Bavaria, which celebrated 450 years in the same family las t year 2019, when my wife and I visited it but can trace itself back to 1569 in the same family ownership!
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasmanufaktur_von_Poschinger
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 24, 2020, 04:24:25 PM
This thread is about the Portland vase, not the oldest glassworks. Did you mean to post this (very interesting) link here?  :)
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on August 24, 2020, 05:32:41 PM
ooh I just have to add to Stephen's post though before it's moved :)

I thought Chrbska was the oldest glass manufactory.

http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/mista/index.php?pg=obchrid

' The von Schleinitz family owned Chřibsk in Horn(Oberkreibitz) a glassworks, the existence of which is confirmed with certainty in 1504. This glassworks remained in the possession of the Friedrich family until 1689; later it changed hands several times, among which after 1742 the Kittel family was the best known. The hut was in operation almost continuously until 2007.'

and

'...A number of production facilities have disappeared and in 2007 the glass factory in Horn Chřibsk , the oldest continuously operating glass factory in Central Europe, was closed.'
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on August 25, 2020, 03:26:21 PM
The clue is "until 2007". I believe it is no longer working!
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on August 25, 2020, 03:38:03 PM
But your challenge was
'The oldest continuous glass factory in the world'
And Chribska opened in 1504 and closed in 2007

So - it was open continuously for 503 years.

Making it the oldest (opened 1504 v. your comment about Poschinger opening 1569) and continuous (running for 503 years v Poschinger which is still open but 'only' on 451 years currently).

I don't think anything can take away from the fact that Chrbska opened in 1504!  It is a claim to fame :)

Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 25, 2020, 04:35:33 PM
And this thread is still about the Portland vase, not the oldest glassworks...  ;)
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: flying free on August 25, 2020, 04:46:26 PM
It will get split soon Sue, I'm sure  ;D
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: sph@ngw on September 03, 2023, 08:27:45 AM
ooh I just have to add to Stephen's post though before it's moved :)

I thought Chrbska was the oldest glass manufactory.

http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/mista/index.php?pg=obchrid

' The von Schleinitz family owned Chřibsk in Horn(Oberkreibitz) a glassworks, the existence of which is confirmed with certainty in 1504. This glassworks remained in the possession of the Friedrich family until 1689; later it changed hands several times, among which after 1742 the Kittel family was the best known. The hut was in operation almost continuously until 2007.'

and

'...A number of production facilities have disappeared and in 2007 the glass factory in Horn Chřibsk , the oldest continuously operating glass factory in Central Europe, was closed.'
I thought I said "oldest existing glass factory?
I visited von  Poschinger factory in 2019, and it is still going, with the head of the family still at the helm!
Title: Re: Now here is a REAL challenge! Portland vase
Post by: Ivo on September 03, 2023, 02:38:33 PM
I remember a video from the 1980s where a New York glass studio made an exact replica, solving all the technical issues. Turned out the techniques were different from the ones assumed for the original.