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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Animals & Figurines => Topic started by: flying free on September 11, 2011, 12:40:42 PM

Title: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 11, 2011, 12:40:42 PM
I'm guessing these are the base and knop of what should have been two goblets.  I hope I got this id right  :sun:
Pictured on Charles Hajdamach's 20th century British Glass page 178 a different version.
There is no evidence the goblet bowls were ever attached but I presume they got broken and someone ground and polished the top.  The sphere is 2 1/2" diameter.  The huntsman is riding side saddle.
The horseman's arm is broken, but the hounds are perfect.  The detail and colours are fantastic.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 11, 2011, 12:43:54 PM
more pics
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 14, 2011, 09:53:30 AM
When the mods have time would it be possible to move this to British and Irish Glass please?  I'm pretty sure this is as I have id'd but confirmation would be good  :sun:
Many thanks
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Frank on September 14, 2011, 10:34:47 AM
Without provenance it is virtually impossible to make that attribution, if you could compare side by side with a provenanced Swingewood you could use a qualified 'possibly' but these could have just as easily been made by one of the majority of undocumented lampworkers.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Anne on September 14, 2011, 11:44:18 AM
Without evidence it will need to stay here M or we risk leading someone else astray.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 14, 2011, 01:02:43 PM
yes you're both right   :ooh:
Frank, I'm on the case.  I'm about to send pictures to someone who should be able to help a little more hopefully although I don't know how long it will be before I hear back.  If they can, I'll come back when I have further information.
I've compared the goblet base to the two in the book and they are comparable in terms of what they look like, apparently on size although that is difficult to know given the bowl of the goblet seems to be missing, and also on how they have been constructed. So they could be bases to S & W goblets, although there may be other makers out there who constructed goblets in the same way and made a similar piece I guess.   The detail on the horse one in particular is also comparable to the one in the book.  But again as you say, it could have been made by anyone else.  The book says there were sets of these glasses made called 'The Kill' and 'Full Cry' depicting scenes of the hunt.  I presume there is some documented evidence of these somewhere, so hopefully I will get some evidence which could help.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: johnphilip on September 14, 2011, 05:46:38 PM
I hate to say this but i have the full cry , i bought it many years ago it was perfect the seller wrapped it and boxed it but when i got home and unwrapped it the foxes head had come off and was stuck up the horses ass . Its still in the loft . I do apologise for having so much glass ,  i also have a Merletto Marcel Franck perfume bottle but i wasnt going to mention that  :-[ :-[ :-[ sorryeee  :ooh:
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 14, 2011, 06:09:41 PM
How fabulous  :hiclp:  Are mine the same kind of goblets as yours please?  I've seen two other pieces apparently by him, not in CH's book.  One is not the same kind of goblet, the other is. 

From a previous thread on here Mike Moir mentions that there is little about William Swingewood and that Charles Hajdamach's book would be the first to document a piece discussing him.  I presume that there haven't been any more recent books out since then which provide any more information.  I hope at some point in the next year to get to Broadfield House so if I can't get any further now I may do then. 
I'm confused about your reference to Marcel Franck in the same thread ?
thanks
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Frank on September 14, 2011, 06:16:01 PM
Fox & hounds were and remain a common lampwork subject... literally every one did them in every country and you can still find the theme in the repertoire of current lampworkers. Just to add to confusion many traditional lampworkers were not highly creative and tended to stick to the exact design that they were taught which can be irritating for dating when something was made by several generations of one family, and pyramid of their students.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Mike M on September 14, 2011, 06:28:24 PM
Hi

sorry I posted a reply to this a few days ago but it can't have stuck!

Billy Swingewood Yes
Stevens and Williams Yes
Glasses missing tops -yes perfect match -I've sold similar ones with proper tops to his grandson!

cheers


Mike
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: johnphilip on September 14, 2011, 06:31:16 PM
Its a very big goblet i will dig it out in the morning i cant remember much about it .
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 14, 2011, 06:32:08 PM
Ok thanks.  I'm guessing that even though there are to my eye, similarities with the goblet and the lampwork in the book and the two I have seen online attributed to William Swingewood, they are not enough to bother pursuing in that case.
Thanks for looking  :)
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 14, 2011, 06:52:54 PM
oops I'm sorry Mike and JP my post was in response to Frank's and crossed with both of yours.

Mike thank you so much :hiclp:  I was beginning to feel like a dog with a bone, thinking I was seeing things (something I can be prone to I know   :-[) , but in this case there were too many similarities just to write them off on the unknown shelf.  Do you remember if yours had opalescent hands by the way.  A weird thing, but there are lots of colours and detail in the huntsman/horse one, and one of them is that just his hands are opalescent.

JP thank you also, I've just realised you were talking about one scene with horse and fox in the same one goblet  :o - I thought you were talking about a whole set hence my plural response.  The base of these two is big and according to the book the goblet in there is 7" tall, so I can imagine it would be quite a big piece.

Thanks so much again for your help.  It is much appreciated and  especially also since there are very few references available to compare to making it difficult to research.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Mike M on September 14, 2011, 11:25:25 PM
Hi

I've had quite a few over the years, all with that distinctive 'mountings' above and below the spheres and each 'hunting' scene seems to comes in a variety of colours -BTW huntsman side saddle is usually a huntswoman.

It's an odd set I suspect the full set is 6 but I've seen 7 different ones -I suspect they cut out 'The kill' as it's gross and replaced it later.

These Swingewood ones come in at least 3 sizes -the were made for Thomas Goode and Sons and I've seen a set marked something like

'For the glorious hunting season of the jubilee year of  1936' so I suspect that was their design date.

Much rarer are the other sets - I've seen part sets of tropical birds and transport - cars and planes!

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Mike M on September 14, 2011, 11:35:03 PM
Hope this works
I found some pictures of a part set and the close up of a huntsman
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 15, 2011, 07:33:13 AM
Mike thank you  :sun:  Fantastic to see some others from the set
I think there is one on Great Glass that has a car in and I've seen one parrot.   They're fascinating because I wonder how he did them inside the globe with all the details.  Do you know how they were made?
 :-[ on the huntswoman  ;D  She has so much detail, even her brown boots are properly formed.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 15, 2011, 08:53:42 AM
Getting away from the ghastly hunt theme  :-X, I have a tiny opalescent-point Siamese cat which looks as if it was made by the same maker as the wee dog.
It's of exceptional quality, you can see the musculature of the animal, it has movement and expression - amazing in such a tiny thing!
It has the same little black dot eyes, and it has a tiny cranberry-flashed nose.

It is 1.5" from tip of nose to tip of tail and 0.75" from paw to shoulder. It is made of both opalesecnt and opaque white glass.

I'm convinced it's something absolutely excellent, and from this time, not Komarovy and quite probably by the same maker as the figures being discussed here.

Does anybody with more experience than me with this sort of area agree???
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: johnphilip on September 15, 2011, 10:34:27 AM
OK just got it down 11 inches high x 5 1/2  wide folded foot , on the base the acid mark Thomas Goode & Co Ltd LONDON 1935 - No 8
On the bowl large intaglio engraved horse shoe in the middle of the shoe engraved The Hunting Season in the Silver Jubilee Year of 1935
The lampwork is a brown horse with the huntsman standing in front holding the fox aloft , one hound beside him the other leaping up trying to get the fox , unfortunatley the mans head has come of from the neck and the fox is attached to the top of his head this is loose as one piece and can be moved by turning the goblet , Huntsman red white with brown boots  Horse light brown with dark brown tack , two hounds black and white . nopp 3x3 inches Huntsman 1 1/2 inches with hands in the air .
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 15, 2011, 10:38:07 AM
 :24:
HA!    Fox:1, Hunter:0.
Justice is served.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: johnphilip on September 15, 2011, 10:44:17 AM
Yes Sue my thoughts also , it looks like the fox bit his head off . Perhaps the Anti hunt Brigade may like it ?
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 15, 2011, 10:47:26 AM
 :24: :24: :24:

I doubt it, jp, still far too distasteful.
You wouldn't want a portrait of Harold Shipman in your house, would you? Even though he's dead.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 15, 2011, 11:43:01 AM
Getting away from the ghastly hunt theme  :-X, I have a tiny opalescent-point Siamese cat which looks as if it was made by the same maker as the wee dog.

 It is made of both opalesecnt and opaque white glass.

I'm convinced it's something absolutely excellent, and from this time, not Komarovy and quite probably by the same maker as the figures being discussed here.


Well for the record I am vehemently anti hunt  :) JP thank you for looking out all the detail and information on the sizes.
I had bought these not knowing what they were to be honest, just that they were curious because they were actually enclosed and fairly large pieces even without their bowls ( I don't really do free standing animals or small things) , and the detail in the woman is incredible and the dogs look real.  I never gave them another thought until I spotted them looking for the Stevens and Williams bowl in another thread.  When I checked the woman with a magnifying glass and spotted her opalescent hands it reminded me of your comment on the cat Sue, which is why I asked about it  :sun:  I hadn't actually spotted that the design of the cat and my dogs is quite similar as well.  The dogs are opaline but without opalescent noses.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Frank on September 15, 2011, 12:22:22 PM
There seem to be more differences than simlarities between the subject examples and the S&W posted further down.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 15, 2011, 02:02:12 PM
I can't agree there are more differences than similarities, because I can't actually see any of those Mike posted in close up in order to tell - apart from one, where I can see there are differences in some ways and most obviously with the legs/hooves on the horse.
That said, again it is hard to tell because they are moving legs whereas mine are stationary and of course they are horses legs rather than dogs legs so comparing those two is also difficult.  I can't see the pictures of Mike's dogs closely enough to make any comparison at all although the picture of the dogs standing still, indicates their legs are fairly straight and undefined, much like my horse legs appear to be, although there is definition in them it's difficult to show in the photos.
Is there evidence somewhere that these sets were all identical? (I'm not ignoring the fact that differences can be subtle and are not necessarily to do with colours, and the 'overall' look of the piece).  
Personally I do think the horse Mike has put in close up actually looks more like the horse on an ashtray id'd as by William Swingewood Jnr, page 178 Hajdamach 20th Century British Glass.  If so would these goblets have still been made in the 50's (which is the date one of WS Jnr  items in the book is id's as).  If not and these sets are dated to the 30's then I presume it is possible that there are differences in the detailed execution of these pieces by the same maker, as the rider and horse in the goblet in 20th Century British glass also looks slightly different to the one Mike has.
Frank are you aware of another maker who could have made glasses constructed in this way?  If we assume they are Stevens and Williams for now given there are a number identified as Stevens and Williams that look remarkably the same, are you aware of another lampworker who would have been able to make these goblets at Stevens and Williams?  

m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Mike M on September 15, 2011, 08:58:08 PM
Though I go into a bit more information if this help at all...............

I based the Stevens and Williams attribution on these bowl-less ones more on the fact that the spheres holding the figures are very similar and the mountings above and below appear identical. The figures being similar helps too!

I must have seen parts of maybe as many as 6 hunting sets now - the riders (man, woman and once I think a master with top hat) and horses vary wildly in colour and slightly in form - I've had the dogs running, standing and jumping up, I think the fox is also either running or jumping up.

The first two part sets I had were verified coincidently by both Charles H and by Billy's grandson (some also were marked for T Goode -which helped). I think they both mentioned that apart form his son, Billy was the only lampmaker employed by S&W or for that matter any Stourbridge glassworks at that period.

All that being said comparing pictures is far from an exact science - and pictures like mine don't really help -sorry I don't have better pictures -those spheres make them very hard to photo.

Hope this helps -I'm pretty confident they are topless, S&W and Billy snr -but only as confident as you can be comparing poor quality photos!

cheers

M

 
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 15, 2011, 09:32:32 PM
Thank you Mike  :)
I've found it difficult to photograph the horse one well at all.  I did get some slightly better pictures yesterday in daylight that show more detail.  I wasn't going to bother putting them here, but if I get time, I will just for future reference.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 16, 2011, 08:06:38 AM
I was looking for something else entirely and spotted this attribution.  A goblet that seems to be the same as mine and those Mike posted with a rider and horse in it attributed to a Harry Moore at Stevens and Williams.   You will need to scroll down the page, I think it is 5th or 6th picture down on the left.

http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/edtog1.html

m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Mike M on September 16, 2011, 09:25:28 AM
Hi

Although I might be totally wrong, I suspect this is an old mis-attribution (I think that page is a few years old and when it first appeared it was probably as good a guess as any)

-as I'd said in that earlier thread, Charles H's book was one of the first to really document the Swingewood work.

Charles told me about going through the Swingewood designs with fascination - wondering if they had all been made.
 
-one particular one he said drew his eye and he included the design drawing in his book - the lampwork figure is a bird then the sphere is etched with vertical bands like a cage!
cheers

Mike 
PS found another couple more Swingewood 'close ups' - two crowns -the coloured one is  trial edition of only 2!
And the clear a limited edition of 50 -both made as 'abdication' commemoratives for Thomas Goode and Sons
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 16, 2011, 10:14:55 AM
ooh they are gorgeous !  I read about the bird, it sounds wonderful.
For what it's worth, gut instinct is a terrible thing I know, but I do think mine are the same  :P
I'm happy to be proved wrong, but for now I 'think' I'm right lol.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 16, 2011, 10:54:01 AM
My guts agree with yours, m.
And they think my little cat belongs too.
Christine handled it and agrees that the work is of stunningly superior quality, it's a miniature, anatomically correct sculpture.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: tedwyns on September 20, 2011, 06:59:23 PM
HELLO ALL,this is my first message on this site so please tell me if im doing something wrong,I HAVE 6 LARGE WINE GOBLETS WHICH I BELEIVE WERE MADE BY BILL SWINGEWOOD,each goblet has a glass bauble with lampwork animals inside,the theme is fox hunting,2 goblets have horses with riders, 2 goblets have 2 hunt dogs inside,one goblet has one hunting dog inside,and the last one has a fox on the run inside,all 6 goblets are in perfect condition,where would i get these valued,or where would i find a collector to sell these too, PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 20, 2011, 08:54:49 PM
Hi Tedwyns welcome to the board  :)
I would love to see pictures of the whole set if you are able to, or wish to, upload them.  I'm afraid I can't help with a valuation and generally I think people on the board tend not to do valuations  (although someone may be willing to do so for you) as they are, in my opinion, mostly  dependent on the market at the time of selling, i.e. the buoyancy of the market and also of course, whether or not only one person is interested in the piece or many.  I would suggest you look for previous auction sales etc which could be a route to getting a ballpark figure, however I have found that finding any of these pieces, just to look at pictures alone, has been incredibly difficult - I've only come across one piece where a value was attached, and I don't know if that piece was definitely an id'd piece rather than an attribution as it was on ebay.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Frank on September 20, 2011, 09:15:24 PM
Good to see another named S&W lampworker added. You will find that most of the lampwork produced in one factory to be nearly identical regardless of who actually made it, although I do not doubt that the original makers would be able to say exactly who. So it is unsafe and probably wrong to assume all is Swingwewood. The problem with having few lampworkers identified is that everyone will assume the work is that of those whose 'attributed' work is published, i.e, Swingewood in Hajdamach and in various other places including GMB with different spelling, See Bridge Crystal thread.

Same issues with Pirelli (http://www.ysartglass.com/Indexcat04.htm), Hajdamach states Dunlop as designer and he probably did design some pieces early on but was not the main designer - still being researched. They had quite a few lampworkers and their post-Pirelli work is often identical to what they learned at Pirelli.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 21, 2011, 06:16:41 AM
If lampwork is for production items, then to the untrained eye they should appear to be "the same", as should all hotworked or hand blown production items. The "MiL" has some birds of paradise, which may be Swingewood, that I will photograph when we see them in the next couple of weeks.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 21, 2011, 09:26:25 AM

I understand exactly what Frank is saying - makes a great deal of sense - but what should one do to describe such items accurately then?

"Swingewood-style" is obviously a no-no.

Would folk accept "Swingewood et al."  ????
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Frank on September 21, 2011, 10:19:00 AM
I would avoid the name of the individual unless well provenanced. If the piece can be identified as a particular glassworks then the name of the glassworks should be used. After all no-one attempts to name cut glass to the cutter yet each cutter has their own 'signature' that makes it possible to match pieces to a cutter and it would require the same level of skill as identifying individual lampworkers.

Always take detailed information in a book as a discrete selection of knowledge and not out of context by applying similarity.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 21, 2011, 05:08:00 PM
Can I just query something please?  Frank, in response to my stating I had seen an attribution to a Harry Moore for a similar goblet shape with lampwork contained within the sphere in the stem, you've said, 'Good to see another named S&W lampworker added',
 whilst Mike said
'Although I might be totally wrong, I suspect this is an old mis-attribution (I think that page is a few years old and when it first appeared it was probably as good a guess as any)

-as I'd said in that earlier thread, Charles H's book was one of the first to really document the Swingewood work.

Charles told me about going through the Swingewood designs with fascination - wondering if they had all been made.'


Which leads me to question - Is Harry Moore a known lampworker for Stevens and Williams?  Did he work during the 20's?  Do we know Stevens and Williams were producing this goblet shape with the sphere in the 1920's? 
I'm just curious that William Swingewood is dated to 1935 according to a piece made that Mike has mentioned.  So did William Swingewood use the same 'device' i.e the lampwork in the sphere in a stem that had been previously designed by a Harry Moore and produced by Stevens and Williams in the 1920's?
That seems a little unlikely to me, more likely to me the attribution of 1920's is incorrect.
If it is known that Harry Moore worked there during the 1920's then I 'm thinking this attribution to Harry Moore also could be incorrect, since there are dated pieces attributed to William Swingewood in the 1930's and that anecdotal evidence has been given to Mike that he was the only lampworker at Stevens and Williams at that time.

Or does this not make sense?
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Frank on September 21, 2011, 07:40:21 PM
While lampworkers go back a long way a lot of them worked on their own travelling from place to place to ply their trade. But then a lot of glassmakers learned and developed lampworking skills for the 1914 war effort and virtually no names are known and little information to be found. Between the wars that meant that a lot of these dispersed and probably remained in the industry utilising their lampworking skills for friggers and if they were lucky products. In 1939 the story was repeated and following WW2 many set up companies to be able to continue lampworking. Hajdamach has covered lampworking which was a welcome sight but unfortunately not as deeply researched as much of the rest of the book and does contain some errors - although hardly surprising given the paucity of documentation. But the home-grown lampworkers were not the rarity that seems to be assumed. Many continued to work in Scientific Glassblowing. Frits Akerboom who came to Scotland from Holland remained a Scientific glassmaker through to retirement, but he also developed as an artist and is credited with introducing lampwork to the Studio glass movement.

For me this remains an ongoing research project and hopefully I one day get to put together what I have uncovered.
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 21, 2011, 08:43:29 PM
Thanks Frank  :)  Ironically I do have a friend (quite a lot older than me and retired) who recently told me he'd been to Murano and also to Ireland to Waterford (I think) in the last year.  When I asked why, he told me in a surprised tone that he'd been a Scientific Glassblower and always had an interest in glass lol.  I'd never known.
m
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: Frank on September 21, 2011, 11:28:48 PM
Drill him please  >:D must have lots of knowledge, maybe of the elusive Harry Ellerway...
Title: Re: William Swingewood snr for Stevens & Williams 1920's? Hunt lampwork things
Post by: flying free on September 22, 2011, 08:17:57 AM
I will do when I next see him.  I did ask a passing question about how he started doing it, and he I'm sure he said they needed certain things in the lab and couldn't buy them so he made them.  I'll find out more.

One more thing - since Bernard has raised a question regarding the foot of a Stevens and Williams trumpet vase I thought I'd put an observation on here about the foot of the goblets, they are bevelled around the top edge.  I thought that was rather neat.  I've never seen that before, however I don't collect anything with feet normally, the only vase I have that has a foot has a rolled rim.

m