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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: Lily of the Valley on October 30, 2010, 08:21:00 PM

Title: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Lily of the Valley on October 30, 2010, 08:21:00 PM
Here's a little "Made in Murano" mosaic millefiori dish that charmed its way into my paperweight >:D collection recently.  It, along with the miniature early Perthshire paperweight, were found on a trip to the coast earlier this week.  The little dish measures 3-in across; the pw is 1-3/4 inches in diameter.  The little dish has a flat, almost grainy appearance (satin or matte???).  It is quite sheer which I think shows in the photos in natural light.  (Only one photo was taken with the flash.)  Of course, there is only a generic-like label, but I'm hoping someone here will be able to shed some light on this tiny treasure. :sun:

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-13584

Keeping my fingers crossed ..... Lily  :X:

Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Ivo on October 30, 2010, 09:27:28 PM
I'm thinking La Murrhina.
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Lily of the Valley on October 31, 2010, 10:57:22 PM
Thank you, Ivo, for your direction. :)  If this is the La Murrina (searches led to this spelling), then I am most pleased.  Certainly all the vibrant, beautiful colors are there.  The colored glass in the little dish almost glows. 8)  Would you think this piece to be early in La Murrina's history (1968-74 or so) before the focus appears to become more lighting oriented?  The web site offers wonderful glimpses into some of this company's gorgeous artwork. 

http://www.lamurrina.us/NEW/?a=getp&oid=2

With appreciation .... Lily
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Ivo on November 01, 2010, 08:14:51 AM
try this one instead:
www.murrina.it/
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: tam bam on November 01, 2010, 01:52:01 PM
I agree with Ivo on this one.  I think it is La Murrina also.  At first glance I was thinking Ercole Moretti, the murrines are not as good as Ercole Moretti though.  Ercole tends to have murrines that are the same size throughout the piece (or at least in their plates).  Also Ercole Moretti uses a small murrine (usually clear) with an "M". 

http://www.fossilfly.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=f55ceda4399de511f1735563a1b696ac&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FI&Product_Code=ACP-3-LGR&Category_Code=AccentPlates

La Murrina is Moretti's murrine competitor and does many things similar to Moretti.  La Murrina is not cheap stuff, don't get me wrong. Their murrine items are just a little bit more affordable than Ercole Moretti's.  I personally have a La Murrina necklace made from their murrines so I can personally tell you their quality is very good.

tam bam
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Lily of the Valley on November 02, 2010, 10:38:20 PM
Thank you, Ivo and tb, for your direction(s) :-[ and input.  No matter what, I really like this little decorative dish.  It's bright and cheery to say the least.  Finding and buying it made me feel as I used to when paperweights were new to me and the only thing important was I really liked how they looked!  Artist/Country did not even enter into the equation.  It was a less $$$$ time as well. :D

Do either of you (or anyone) have an idea as to the approximate age of this piece?  I noted in the links provided that both Ercole Moretti and La Murrina both have identifying marks on their pieces.  The dish appears to only have the generic label ... >:(  I purchased it in an antique/vintage store but that may mean absolutely nothing.

Lily :)
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Ivo on November 03, 2010, 07:42:30 AM
I've seen them on sale new in Rome and that was 5 or 6 years ago - so relatively recent.
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: johnphilip on November 03, 2010, 10:03:36 AM
Moretti often have a tiny m cane in theirs i had one for a few days before i noticed it . :-[
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Lily of the Valley on November 03, 2010, 10:52:04 PM
Well, I have intently/intensely searched this little object d'art with only eye strain to show for my efforts.  No 'm' cane to be found.  So, I guess it comes down to being recent La Murrina w/no id mark.  It's still very pretty, even though I know "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".  It shows well and it can sit anywhere! :D  No cabinet needed here!

Thanks again to all ..... Lily  :)
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: tam bam on November 04, 2010, 12:37:53 AM
Here is an Ercole Moretti plate:

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz23/TamiPietras12/008.jpg

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz23/TamiPietras12/011.jpg

Can you find the "M" murrine in the first photo?

Here is a La Murrina pendant:

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz23/TamiPietras12/012.jpg

It appears as if La Murrina used the same satin finish as the Moretti plates.

tam bam

 
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Lily of the Valley on November 04, 2010, 12:43:55 PM
Tam Bam, both pieces are very nice.  Your plate really pops, and, yes, I found the "M".  (Wish I had found one on mine.)  I also noted the label.  Your pendant is beautiful!  Do you wear it often?

Lily :hi:
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Artofvenice on November 05, 2010, 10:59:43 AM
Hi,
you can't imagine how many of these plates I sold between between the 1995 and the 2000!
I can tell you some name of the possible producers: Ragazzi, Tiozzo, Trevisan, Mosaico Veneziano.
Moretti, with his name and history, is on an higher price range and they sell a lot less in quantity.
For this style of multicolor murrina composition, they use standard murrina canes, that they can buy just ready cutted in small pieces to be use immediately. Therefore for these plates is very hard to say who is the company, due to the murrinas are the same.
May be that you can check the finishing (coldwork). Probably the Tiozzo ones are more "hand finished" (Claudio Tiozzo is a very good coldworker), the Ragazzi and Trevistan ones are really similar, and the Mosaico Veneziano productions are a little cheaper.
There are also other companies, but these four names had the 80% of the market for these productions during the last 15 years and they are still in production.
PS. Ragazzi and Trevisan in the last 7-8 years should feature the official "Murano mark". I'm not sure if Tiozzo is in the consortium and for sure Mosaico Veneziano is not.

Ciao

Alex
www.artofvenice.com (http://www.artofvenice.com)
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Lily of the Valley on November 05, 2010, 11:37:55 PM
Buon Giorno, Alex.

I appreciate your help with this little plate.  May I ask, please, the terms to use when describing "coldwork"?  What do I look for to determine better or lesser quality?

Grazie .... Lily  :) 

Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Artofvenice on November 06, 2010, 12:34:50 AM
Hi Lily,
with coldwork I mean all the different works on cold glass (like engraving, polishing, cutting, sandblasting...).

This piece was made by fusion of a composition of several small glass pieces on an electric kiln. Doing this you will have a flat and clean surface on the top side and a rough surface on the lower side.

As you can see on your plate the two sides features instead a similar level of opacity and finishing. This is due to they are "coldworked". I can't be sure at 100%, but this finshing was made by a polishing tape and a polishing wheel passing the plate on. On the lower rough side it will clean it, on the upper side it will glaze it, up to have the same level of translucent effect.

This is a photo of a friend who is also a great coldworker and he take care of the finishing of my own pieces:
(http://www.alessandrocasson.com/images/Coldwork01.JPG)

And these are two examples of coldworks on my pieces:
Buccia d'arancia (typical of Venini)
(http://www.alessandrocasson.com/images/Battuto01.JPG)

Inciso and carved
(http://www.alessandrocasson.com/images/Coldwork02.JPG)

Sincerely

Ale
www.artofvenice.com (http://www.artofvenice.com)
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: misha on November 06, 2010, 12:54:59 AM
Also Ercole Moretti uses a small murrine (usually clear) with an "M".  

http://www.fossilfly.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=f55ceda4399de511f1735563a1b696ac&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FI&Product_Code=ACP-3-LGR&Category_Code=AccentPlates



*from that link*   this plate has Moretti's trademark "M" within the glass showing its authenticity.

 :24:

Honestly... if the Chinese can counterfeit microscopic security threads placed in collectable USA banknotes, does anyone really believe the 'M' detail is a proof of authenticity?

Sorry, to me, that just stood out as way too optimistic and if your interested in rooting out forgeries you won't deny it.
I've very little investment in what's called 'Murano'... but those with more have more to loose when consumer confidence suffers due to fakes and the scammers out there.

Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: misha on November 06, 2010, 01:44:51 AM
This is the only example I have of this type of tiny plate. It was purchased new retail in Sydney - Australia back in 2005.
I suspect there were millions of these made for a Global market.
The pic was taken for a shipping manifest when I moved to WA from Sydney, so not all that focused on specific detail.
Feel free to copy and archive on this site if you wish. Haven't resized image so thats not an active link.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx203/reproducer/DSC00861.jpg

Diameter: 81.8mm
Bowl Height: 18.2mm
Thickness: 3mm

There was a time I sought a much larger specimen of this type work [ie. diameter of 250mm], but now it all seems like mass production work to me.
My focus is on genuine old cameo glass and works of a specific Aus glass artist. 
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Artofvenice on November 06, 2010, 05:06:14 PM
*from that link*   this plate has Moretti's trademark "M" within the glass showing its authenticity.

Honestly... if the Chinese can counterfeit microscopic security threads placed in collectable USA banknotes, does anyone really believe the 'M' detail is a proof of authenticity?
Sorry, to me, that just stood out as way too optimistic and if your interested in rooting out forgeries you won't deny it. (...)fakes and the scammers out there.
True. It is easy to make a small murrina with an "M" inside. An "entry level" lampworker can do a small cane with the M inside in 10 minutes.
But if you check on the other image the code on on the Murano mark is 003 and it is the code of Moretti factory.
This about this "probably Moretti" plate. Instead concerning the first plate in topic, I can confirm at 80% Mosaico Veneziano or Sergio Tiozzo as the producer
Ciao. Alex
www.artofvenice.com (http://www.artofvenice.com)
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: Lily of the Valley on November 07, 2010, 03:05:18 AM
Buongiorno, Alex.

I appreciate your instruction about what coldwork is in the glass world and how my little plate was made!  You are correct, the plate looks and feels the same on both sides.  These little plates appear to be very popular and affordable gifts and souvenirs which were made by many different glasshouses, some of which do not have a "signature".  I will be sure to look at web sites for the names you have given me as well as your own gallery site (which will be very pleasing to do.)  Once again, your help is very much appreciated as are the photos you sent as well.

Grazie molto ..... Lily  :)     
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: tam bam on November 07, 2010, 01:43:00 PM
Alex is very correct that 003 is Ercole Moretti's Promovetro number.  Here is the box that my little plate came in.

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz23/TamiPietras12/007.jpg

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz23/TamiPietras12/009.jpg

http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz23/TamiPietras12/008-1.jpg

tam bam

P.S. - Thanks Alex for the explanation on coldworking.  It was very interesting and informative.  :rah:
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: tam bam on January 11, 2011, 06:45:19 PM
I wonder if your plate could made by Vinciprova Vetri di Murano.  I found this plate on Ebay today and this particular company also makes miniture millefiori dishes.  This company also makes a pair of miniture vases that I own (mystery solved regarding my vases). 

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-MURANO-GLASS-MURRINA-MILLEFIORI-DISH-3-9-ASHTRAY-/250751705584?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3a61f761f0

tam bam
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: tam bam on January 11, 2011, 07:48:23 PM
Vinciprova also uses a "M" murrine.  I think the they use blue and Moretti uses a clear "M" murrine.  Not sure why Vinciprova uses the "M" murrine or what it stands for.  If appears that Vinciprova doesn't use it on every piece they make though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MURANO-GLASS-MURRINA-MILLEFIORI-DISH-ITALY-4-72-/220723245451?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336421718b

tam bam
Title: Re: Tiny Murano Dish
Post by: KevinH on January 11, 2011, 09:47:02 PM
It may be worth noting that Moretti murrine (cane slices) are sold worldwide. One example retail outlet is ...
http://www.alpineglass.com/shop/moretti-millefiori-coe-104/

So, if an item has Moretti murrine but there is no "M" (or other) identifier, then it could be almost any maker, anywhere.

However, I do not agree with ideas that the Chinese, or other makers, could easily produce lots of items that look just like the Murano products. It takes a lot of skill to work murrine into a pleasing form of a vase, bowl, dish, plate etc. without having gaps and distortions. It's not just a case of adding some murrine to a glass gather then blowing or forming the shape! Visual quality counts with these items.