Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on October 26, 2006, 05:40:20 AM

Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Bernard C on October 26, 2006, 05:40:20 AM
In Dallas, on Wednesday 25th October 2006, a Webb epergne smashed its way into the record books, achieving a hammer price of $6,000, with buyer's premium $7,350, that's £3,921  :!:

See eBay listing (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300038127825&rd=1,1#la-image-1)

The previous record for this glass house was (to my knowledge) a Stevens and Williams waterlily epergne, apparently designed by Frederick Carder, achieving a price inclusive of b.p. of £2,645 at Sotheby's Royal Brierley auction on Tuesday 3rd March 1998.

Confused?   Think about it.  :lol:

Bernard C.  8)

p.s. I've added the solution into the title of this topic, with an explanation on page 2.
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Hotglass on October 26, 2006, 11:34:36 AM
The same item ?
Sotheby's got it WRONG !!! ??
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: josordoni on October 26, 2006, 11:52:46 AM
Is it certain that Sotheby's got it wrong and not the Dallas Auction house?

if it is unmarked, all attributions are subjective surely?  Unless it appears in an original manufacturer's catalogue?
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: mrvaselineglass on October 26, 2006, 12:47:05 PM
Bernard
What is your research that shows this particular epergne "smashed all records"?  

The reason I ask, is that I personally know of a Webb Table Epergne that sold at auction for $24,000 about 2 years ago.  I know the buyer and have seen pictures of the piece.  Somewhere on a disk (which all of that is packed right now for a move), I have the picture.  The buyer made no fanfare about  the price (obviously) and I actually ran the picture on a previous cover of our club newsletter, without quoting what the buyer paid for the piece.  

$6000 for the ebay epergne seems kinda low for 'smashing all records."

Regards
Dave Peterson
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Bernard C on October 26, 2006, 12:56:50 PM
As I said, think about it.  :)

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: David E on October 26, 2006, 01:21:35 PM
Quote
The previous record for this glass house was (to my knowledge) a Stevens and Williams waterlily epergne,


 :?:
Title: Re: Epergne breaks all records!
Post by: josordoni on October 26, 2006, 02:43:53 PM
Quote from: "Bernard C"
In Dallas, on Wednesday 25th October 2006, a Webb epergne smashed its way into the record books, achieving a hammer price of $6,000, with buyer's premium $7,350, that's £3,921  :!:



hang on... how can the buyer's premium be higher than the hammer price???
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Pat on October 26, 2006, 02:53:36 PM
I think he means that was the total including the buyers premium.
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Della on October 26, 2006, 03:05:14 PM
It broke  :D
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: josordoni on October 26, 2006, 03:12:30 PM
Quote from: "Pat"
I think he means that was the total including the buyers premium.


Ah, yes, I see what you mean.

Della, did it really?!!
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Della on October 26, 2006, 03:17:45 PM
I really don't know Lynne, it is just the devil in me creeping to the top  :twisted:  :D

Quote
epergne smashed
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: josordoni on October 26, 2006, 03:29:56 PM
Well it's not unknown for auction items to get broken.... see my posting about the porter who dropped the entire box of Strathearn and Perthshire paperweights recently. (and who is NOT being allowed to live it down at the auction house either....)  I can't remember which thread it was in, but I was very upset... :cry:  :cry:

I wanted those weights.... :roll:
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Bernard C on October 26, 2006, 07:42:19 PM
I will leave the puzzle unsolved a little longer, unless someone gets really close.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Ron on October 26, 2006, 09:14:42 PM
I'm reading it as "this auction house" (dallasauctiongallery) is part of Sotheby's.
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: aa on October 26, 2006, 09:51:05 PM
The Sotheby's Royal Brierley Auction was the factory collection, so I think one can assume that the description of the waterlily epergne was correct. Logically, that suggests that the description in the Dallas auction should have been that it was a Stevens and Williams epergne and not a Webb one.

Or have I missed something? :(
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Bernard C on October 26, 2006, 10:13:40 PM
Impeccable research and logic, Mr. Aaronson, but wrong.  :D

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: aa on October 26, 2006, 10:15:01 PM
Knew it! :D
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: aa on October 26, 2006, 10:23:02 PM
Quote from: "aa"

Or have I missed something? :(


Out on a limb, now, or should I say a branch....I don't think this has been correctly described as an epergne!

An epergne is a table centrepiece with branching holders into which you slot the glass elements, usually trumpet shaped vases. Not quite sure what this is.
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: bubbles on October 26, 2006, 10:34:24 PM
Can we have the answer now please? I have a hospital appointment in the morning and need to get to bed! :lol:
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: David E on October 26, 2006, 11:06:57 PM
Quote from: "aa"
Quote from: "aa"

Or have I missed something? :(


Out on a limb, now, or should I say a branch....I don't think this has been correctly described as an epergne!

Nah, you're clutching at straws... or should I say twigs? :D
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Bernard C on October 26, 2006, 11:27:51 PM
Pat — OK, just for you.

Back in 1998 Sotheby's made the same assumption as Adam above — that the Royal Brierley factory collection contained Royal Brierley / Stevens and Williams glass.   However the Waterlily epergne carried a design registration number 409769 punched into the gilt metal stems.   This registration was made on 9th May 1903 by John Walsh Walsh, not Stevens and Williams.    Incidentally, after the auction Simon Cottle, head of glass at Sotheby's, publicly apologised for the error, a record in itself, as I have yet to hear of any other occasion where an auctioneer apologised for getting it wrong.   This makes me his number one fan!   See Reynolds pl. 10 for a small version of this epergne.

Virtually all English late Victorian or early C20 Stourbridge-type unattributed fancy glass is described by US regional auction houses as either Webb or Stevens and Williams, whereas here in Britain our auctioneers choose from a longer list, which has the strange effect of making their attributions seem more authentic.    The Dallas epergne was again by John Walsh Walsh, in a type of glass Walsh called Sateen, launched in the June 1886 edition of the Pottery Gazette.   Eric Reynolds discovered positive proof of all this in 2000 in the records of a Sheffield electroplating company, since when Walsh Sateen glass has become reasonably well-known and collectable in its own right.

So that's it.   I look forward to the day when Walsh auction records are set by Walsh glass actually attributed by the auctioneer to Walsh, but that could still be a long way off!

My compliments to you all on your ingenious solutions.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Carolyn Preston on October 27, 2006, 12:01:36 AM
E-Bay newbie here.  :roll:  :oops:

What's a buyer's premium? A kickback? A minimum bid? All I know is when I have won an auction, what I bid is what I pay (plus shipping and handling, of course).

Carolyn
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: alexander on October 27, 2006, 01:14:10 AM
A buyer's premium is a percentage brick and mortar auction houses add on top of the hammer price - usually between 10 and 20 % of the hammer price, some auction houses acually charge both the seller a % as well as the buyer, with the really greedy ones charging a hammer fee on top of everything else.



Alexander
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Ron on October 27, 2006, 01:26:55 AM
It's also known around here as a buyer's penalty.
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: heartofglass on October 27, 2006, 08:50:16 AM
What a stunning piece to bring to our attention,Bernard, it's truly gorgeous!
Am I the only one to compliment it for it's beauty & workmanship?
Now, I have a small bowl in this same glass, & it looks just like the pink posy bowls on this epergne except it's chartreuse green. I assumed it was a rose bowl, but was it once part of an item like this?
Would the bowls on this epergne be all in one piece with their lily-pad bases?
Or perhaps joined by a metal fitting?
My Sateen bowl doesn't look like it had anything joined to it's base, so perhaps these bowls were also made as separate items also?
B.T.W, this same live auction had some other fantastic Victorian art glass; I was watching a lot of 2 very nice Peloton glass vases.
Watching being the operative word here- they were a tad out of my price range! :roll:
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: josordoni on October 27, 2006, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: "alexander"
A buyer's premium is a percentage brick and mortar auction houses add on top of the hammer price - usually between 10 and 20 % of the hammer price, some auction houses acually charge both the seller a % as well as the buyer, with the really greedy ones charging a hammer fee on top of everything else.



Alexander


plus a minimum lotting fee, plus insurance, plus plus plus...

no wonder all their suits look rather Savile Row...

 :cry:
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: heartofglass on October 27, 2006, 09:04:32 AM
Back again! :)
Just remembered I still had this on my watch list from months ago-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180020481391

Exactly the same as my rose bowl, which was why I was checking it out to see what it went for.......mine was from an antique shop closing down, so fairly reasonably priced. Anyway, it's another mistaken attribution to Webb of this type of glass. :wink:
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Bernard C on October 27, 2006, 10:18:00 AM
Quote from: "heartofglass"
Now, I have a small bowl in this same glass, & it looks just like the pink posy bowls on this epergne except it's chartreuse green. I assumed it was a rose bowl, but was it once part of an item like this?
Would the bowls on this epergne be all in one piece with their lily-pad bases?
Or perhaps joined by a metal fitting?
My Sateen bowl doesn't look like it had anything joined to it's base, so perhaps these bowls were also made as separate items also? ...

Marinka — It is most frustrating.   There is no real hint in the three pictures as to how it was all joined up, or what the feet are like.

I've seen the small bowls and other shapes in blue, crimson, golden-brown, green, white, and yellow, both on their own and with green underplates with two or three turn-ups, mostly in photographs, but one or two in the flesh.   The large central vase is new to me.   I think it was a pair of  EPNS mounted salts that gave Eric the clue to try the Sheffield metalbasher's factory pattern books.   You can imagine his delight at brushing away all the dust and grime, finding the drawing of his salts and the accompanying note "Blue Sateen Glass by Walsh".

Any chance of a photograph?

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: heartofglass on October 27, 2006, 12:28:05 PM
Here's a photo of my green Sateen rosebowl (lower left of photo) -
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/satin-group.jpg)
My apologies for it being in with a group of other items! It is the only photo I had at the time.
The base is not polished, but it's not a really rough pontil either. More like a swirling together of the green & white layers.
Hope this is of interest!
 :)
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: Bernard C on October 28, 2006, 10:42:08 AM
Marinka — Lovely, 100% straight-down-the-middle Walsh Sateen.   The group setting actually gives an idea of the scale.  Thanks.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Walsh epergne breaks all records!
Post by: heartofglass on October 28, 2006, 11:35:06 AM
Hi Bernard, :)
Glad you liked the pic, & thanks for the definite attribution.
Just found this & thought you would be interested;it's not Sateen, but it's good to actually see an item attributed to Walsh, & by a U.S seller, too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260045762687
Funnily enough though, the same seller has another Crushed Strawberry item (small double gourd vase, same as one I have) listed as by Stevens & Williams!  :lol: