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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on October 28, 2012, 11:04:51 PM

Title: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on October 28, 2012, 11:04:51 PM
I'm not entirely sure where my thoughts lie on this.   The handle and the way it is applied, seem to me to indicate c1840-1850? ( but I could be wrong  :-\ and the handle may not indicate age and may just be a design device) from what I can see in my searches, along with the opaline and the red trailed rim. 
The way the rim is pinched is distinctive, with the profile curving down to the spout and with the flat upright back. 
The way the handle is applied on the interior of the rim is quite unusual as far as I can see. It has a thumb dent at the top.
The opaline is absolutely luminous, beautiful.  It is a high quality piece with a polished pontil mark (standard sized, not particularly small as my Clichy one is for example).

My instinct says French.  My searching brings up a jug (different decor but on opaline glass) that appears to have a similarly applied handle and shaped rim and with a rim that curves down at the front spout, that is attributed as probably Baccarat - it has a hand enamelled mark on the base 'P and then a number'.  Is that a French way of marking or is it maybe just the enamellers mark not specific to any country.(see link)
http://www.rubylane.com/item/518922-1917-397/Antique-French-Baccarat-Opaline-Enamel

However searching Richardson, shows more jugs with similar handles and rims (see links below) and particularly one (the red one - id'd as probably Richardson) which appears to have the similar dipped spout but not the interior applied handle, and I do wonder whether the vase I link to first could be Richardson but perhaps the mark says not?

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST730/
this one is marked Richardson http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/gilt-and-enamelled-green-ground-jug-ca-1847-50/
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST192/
this last one doesn't have the rim but seems to have the interior applied handle http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH966/

I found one opaline basket that has some similarities attributed as Baccarat probably here (6th item down from top)
http://www.antiqueglass.co.uk/DecorativeGlass.php

I have not been able to find any opaline jugs other than these that are similar and none that are French although I still feel it may be French.  I can't find anything in my book sources (limited access to the Clichy book but no jugs that have handles anything like this).

Any thoughts very much appreciated.
Thanks for looking
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on October 28, 2012, 11:28:30 PM
few more pics
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Ivo on October 29, 2012, 06:05:12 AM
Nice find. It may actually be from Bohemia circa 1840. I have a tiny milk jug with the same trim which I managed to id that by hand of a czech calendar (Historické Sklo 1979) which illustrates a bell
Quote
glass bell "Isabell", fit with guilded silver. The Krkonose Mountains, Novy Svet, about 1840

Isabel is an off white slightly yellowish - so not milk glass. And the mountains are now known as the Giant Mountains.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: pamela on October 29, 2012, 08:51:22 AM
beautiful!
Instantly I remembered Christine's  Lötz set  (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,32544.msg181449.html#msg181449)
 I don't say, yours is Lötz, but the quality and whiteness seem similar ?
 8)
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 29, 2012, 09:18:41 AM
My Loetz is a more translucent white I think.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: chopin-liszt on October 29, 2012, 10:11:48 AM
Maybe it's the picture? Because my immediate gut thoughts were of your Loetz Chicken set, as were Pamela's!
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: bfg on October 29, 2012, 01:14:11 PM
M, just looking at your pics and the last one with the grouping - is that an epergne base or tazza in the background? also French? perhaps?

only asking as I have one and can only vaguely label as french, second opinion would be great  :)

Mel
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on October 29, 2012, 10:07:35 PM
thank you all for your observations and help and lovely comments :)

Mel, I'll find a link to the 'epergne stand' in a minute -
Pamela, Sue, it definitely has the quality of a Loetz piece, and thanks for your nice words.  My thoughts are that it is not as translucent as Christine's pieces, and if I'm honest Loetz didn't even come to mind when I saw it -  it isn't somehow the same as'tango' glass and I can't explain why it isn't, also the rim and the way the handle is applied all say mid 19th c to me...I did think possibly 1830/40s but am now wondering if it might be a bit later (Obviously I could prove to be wrong on all my thoughts  ;D - and Loetz would be nice! but..)

Ivo, your little jug is very beautiful and thank you for another lead to search :)   The opaline looks very yellow on your jug and my  jug is definitely white and very clear, clean, translucent opaline glass, but your Bohemian thought lead me on to other observations (see below).
OK, so my thoughts are these now -
I did originally consider Bohemian for the jug but ignored my thoughts because a) I genuinely thought the rim pointed at France and b) I just thought the detailed way it was made, and the design of the shape of it, were more 'sophisticated' and less 'sturdy' than I consider Bohemian glass to be, which for me pointed to France.
But having been pointed that way again -

- The trefoil rim and the way it is done at the back by the handle is unusual and Richardson had a fondness for this type of rim it seems.  (I can't find any other definitely identified makers that did at the moment).  I think that rim and the way the handle is applied, which is also rare, indicates it is mid 19th century (I thought  it  may even be as early as 1840's but let's ignore that for the mo).
   
- Which led me on to the thought that Richardson also seemed to have a lot in common with Harrach regarding styles, obviously with some differences, but there is confusion often between the two makers. 

- The first jug I linked to on the Ruby Lane site http://www.rubylane.com/item/518922-1917-397/Antique-French-Baccarat-Opaline-Enamel  is the one that is closest to mine in terms of the rim and the handle.  It is attributed as Baccarat, but with the mark on the base and that amber tan coloured flat background enamel band, I wondered if it might be Harrach.  I have found a Harrach marked piece with a very similar P with the horizontal foot on the P and Harrach did letter and number their pieces. But against that, the jug seems to have quite a large polished pontil mark and the gilded decoration and design doesn't look particularly Bohemian to me :-\

- Re the jugs on the Black Country Museum site, some are marked but I thought there might be a possibility that the red one attributed as 'probably Richardson' http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST730/ might be Bohemian? - it too has similarities with my little jug.

- I then found a dated 1869 page of Harrach opaline with red trailed wavy rims on Collectors Weekly  http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/60061-harrach-neuwelt--alabaster-glass-vesse

So, I've no definite id but I'm now wondering whether it is either:
a) earlier Bohemian glass i.e. 1840's or so from an unknown glass house(would a small maker do polished pontil marks and that level of detail and design or would it need to be a fairly established house?) or

b) later 1869 ish Harrach (but I feel the design is not really Harrach ish - don't ask me why as I couldn't explain that feeling in words  ;D and I'm probably wrong or

c) a place such as Josephinenhutte but I've no idea whether they did this kind of opaline glass or Richardson but I can't find any with trailed rims 

d) French  ;D  ;D

Phew...thanks if you managed to read this far.
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2012, 10:13:23 AM
I've done a comparison of the clarity of the opaline close up for future reference for searches. 
I find it quite amazing when you look more closely at the glass, how different the make up is of what look like very similar pieces.
The opaline on the jug has the quality, silkiness and appears to have the clarity of say Stevens and Williams Alabaster.  But actually it is whiter than S&W Alabaster white and close up shots of both show the white jug to be much clearer cleaner opaline glass.  It is very similar in colour to what I think is the opaline cake stand/epergne base, but again close up shots show the cake stand to be possibly pate de riz, certainly cloudy opaline, whereas the jug is definitely not.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2012, 11:22:30 AM
 :-[ ::)  - I didn't check one book..Gulliver's. Couldn't find it in my pile of books and it didn't occur to me til this morning to try and find it to  check rims and handles
page 238 - white opaline like mine - tall jug, same rim with same trailing, handle applied differently though, polished pontil mark, body sits on a solid section foot c 1855 -pretty certain this could be the same maker as mine.
page 238 - blue bright blue opaline small jug, trefoil rim, trailed in opalescent glass I think as it's difficult to tell the colour, looks to have the same body shape as mine as well as the rim, handle applied differently, polished pontil mark, integral circular solid foot, c 1855.  Handle applied differently and smaller than mine
.

Page 242, large Richardson jug c 1848 trefoil rim, spout profile not so dipped.
page 248 - 6" blue opaline jug decorated with small silver leaves and branches all over it, same rim shape, different handle but applied on the interior at the top c1850, integral foot and polished pontil mark

Mine is 3.75" wide across the base and 3" high.

Wonder who made the tall opaline jug on page 238 - does anyone recognise the shape of it please?  STrangely he refers to it as 'opaline type' glass - I look at it as definitely opaline and in fact the glass of my jug is the most beautiful piece of opaline I've ever had - honestly.
thanks!
m

Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Paul S. on October 30, 2012, 05:58:41 PM
I was going to mention Gulliver, but you beat me to it.         It may be significant, but having trawled the Manley pictures, and despite seeing reams of Richardsons products with strap handles, opaline and alabaster colours etc., nowhere can I see anything with an applied ruby trailed rim.    So just possibly an indication that this might be Continental m. :)
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: neilh on October 30, 2012, 06:22:31 PM
For future reference:

Looking at the Molineaux Webb pattern book, they had a go at some of these white + minimalist colour styles around the 1855-1865 era. Pattern 6189 is a creamer with small basin/sugar. Both are white with British Rail 1940's green. The creamer is green on the upper half and partly on the handle. The basin is green around the rim, but much thicker than the examples here. They also did several variations of white tazza, usually with lime green or pale blue horizontal sections of varying widths.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2012, 06:34:24 PM
Thank you both for taking your time to go through references for me  :)
Neil I like the sound of those, have you ever seen any in person?  The lime green sounds especially interesting (to me  :) )
 
Paul, thanks so much for going through more Richardson for me - as I said earlier I couldn't find any with red trailed rim either, so between us we must have covered off a fair few!  Hopefully safe to say most likely  not Richardson then.  I think, thanks to  Ivo's lead of Novy Svet,  Harrach is  nearest so far.  The white with red rim jug (c1855) in Gulliver's page 238 I am pretty certain is the same maker - now I just need to know who  ;D 
If it's Harrach then perhaps they made these pieces earlier even than the 1869/1870 in the book? or is my jug later than I supposed?

And just to correct what I said earlier about my cake stand being possibly pate-de-riz - Ivo said on the thread for that piece, that it wasn't - so these are just different forms of opaline I think with some being clearer than others.
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: bfg on November 05, 2012, 11:16:42 AM
did you see this page m?

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/60480-re-invention-in-the-art-deco-era-from-h
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on November 05, 2012, 11:57:26 AM
thanks Mel - no I didn't find the earlier link where the collectors weekly bowl I had linked to is compared to a later Kralik piece. But I have been pondering the Collectors Weekly link I gave earlier.
Just to confirm here - on that link, the poster says his earlier bowl is solid opaline glass whereas the Kralik comparison piece achieves the same 'effect' by using white cased in clear glass with a trailed rim. 

So I have a question about the earlier link I gave http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/60061-harrach-neuwelt--alabaster-glass-vesse
where the posters bowl is identified from a Harrach id'd  published picture.  The rim on the posters bowl has the pulls made by pulling the rim down, whereas the pictures of the Harrach id'd published pieces show the fluted rim made by pulling up - well at least it does to my eyes.  Does this make any difference or is it just a variation in technique - I'm not questioning the identification, just pondering really.

Re the link Mel gave and the explanation on Collectors Weekly of how the posters bowl is made and comparison to Kralik, my jug is solid  glass or 'opaline' glass (Gulliver's calls this opaline type glass - at some point, I'm going to start another topic on this as a discussion) as is the posters bowl id'd as Harrach, my jug is  not cased as the Kralik version.

The trailing on the rim of my jug appears to be a match for the colour and type of the trailing on the posters bowl.  But whilst my jug has an integral foot and polished pontil, it does not have a stand ring.  It is slightly concave on the base, so the wear is all on the outside but there is no deliberate stand ring.  On photo inspection I would say my jug and the posters bowl have marked similarities.  I just need to find a Harrach jug with that particular shaped rim and handle and I will be happy  ;D
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Paul S. on November 13, 2012, 10:18:15 AM
believe there was a link to a piece of Baccarat opaline at the beginning of your post m - although the example shown was of a very different style - but possible you may have been closer than you thought in suggesting this French factory who made some of the best C19 opaline.
Top right pic. - page 53 - of Miller's 'Glass Antiques CheckList' (Consultant Mark West) - shows a similar bright white opaline jug (unfortunately, size not given), with deep blue trailing around the rim.          Although the rim trailing colour is different, both pieces share other characteristics strikingly similar  ...very wide downward pointing lip, an OTT bulbous body elevated on a 1 - 1.5 cm. narrower base, and that distinctive pinched/lobed effect either side of the rear of the rim  -  was that peculiar to Baccarat does anyone think??     
The book describes this shape as "The inventive form of this jug is typical of many Baccarat designs"         
Similarities with your jug appear too great to ignore and make for a 'highly probable' connection  -  although no suggested date of manufacture is given in Miller's, Felice Mehlman gives c. 1840 for French opaline which is the same as Ivo's suggested timeline.
Don't know whether you have access to this book, so perhaps someone else might check for me if not :)
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on November 13, 2012, 11:29:32 AM
thank you so much Paul, for taking the time to look for this.  I really do appreciate it, especially since it is not a book I have.
I'm torn on this one - going back to my original post I still look at the jug and think French, it's just what it says to me,  which I know is not a good thing to go on  :).
So far out of all the links I've posted,  I am as sure as 99.99% that the large white jug in Gullivers is the same maker. I'm not sure of a connection on any of the other links.
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Frank on November 13, 2012, 03:14:16 PM
Makes some senses of this pressed piece of Inwald opalish http://sklo-union-glass.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=298&category_id=6&keyword=boule&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1 (http://boule) with enamelled red rim... which just seemed at odds for the 1930s period but was presumably a traditional decoration style for Bohemia.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on November 13, 2012, 03:17:55 PM
Frank the link isn't working for me  :-\
found your jug and cup by another route though.
They are pretty- but given there was a lot of tango glass around perhaps that was the 'flavour' they were going for.  I love it, but it's an odd amalgam of design isn't it?  kind of 40's/50's style gilt bands and red enamel and shape, but the bobbles just give it the wow factor.,]
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on November 13, 2012, 03:47:10 PM
Paul, I've not managed to find anything id'd as Baccarat online, even using French search terms.  The only one I can find that has some similarities in the slightly downturned spout and pinched rim is this one sold at Christies as possibly St Louis or Clichy (the decor on this is not opaline though).

http://www.christies.com/lotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4487268
and Clichy yellow small opaline vase here with what appears to be an integral foot
http://www.gazette-drouot.com/static/magazine_ventes_aux_encheres/cotes_et_tendances/opaline.html
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Paul S. on November 13, 2012, 05:51:39 PM
I couldn't get Frank's link to work either.

In your links m there is nothing remotely similar to the shape/decoration of the two opaline jugs of which we are speaking here, and as you don't have the Miller's book you're not going to see the example I mentioned, but I assure you the similarity is striking.
Neither is there any mention in Miller's of the source of the Baccarat attribution (not unusual in books) - someone's personal experience no doubt.
Suggest you send images to the V. & A. or Broadfield House, otherwise leave yours as simply French :)

P.S.    Does anyone else have this particular Miller's book??
 
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Ivo on November 13, 2012, 06:14:13 PM
Frank linked to
http://sklo-union-glass.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=298&category_id=12&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1
but there is no more than a nodding relationship I think
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on November 13, 2012, 06:31:52 PM
Paul,there appears to be two Antiques Glass Checklists - what is on the cover of yours please?
thanks  :)
oh,don't worry, I've worked it out
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Frank on November 13, 2012, 06:54:00 PM
My comment was about the jug showing the roots of the items linked tp so no help on this topic.... just continuance.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on November 13, 2012, 06:59:52 PM
Just looking at Felice Mehlman's book page 79 and over to 80 , The Illustrated Guide to Glass, it says
'By about 1825, the fashion for coloured glass led to the introduction of opaline (see also pp 216-218), a semi transparent opaque glass .....'

I just thought I'd add that here because I can never remember the start date for the opaline.
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on November 15, 2012, 09:51:34 AM
Paul, thanks for that.  I orderded the book and it has arrived and I would say I'm very happy to go with Baccarat opaline based on the definite similarities between the two pieces.  The book was reissued in 2000.

However... I found this on Mark's lovely site - it bears little similarity with my jug at face value, until you look at the shape of the rim and the way the handle is applied over the top of the rim - that is where the similarity definitely is and this is id'd as Bohemian.  It could well be though that the pinched trefoil rim and the way the handle is applied was a feature of 1840 glass regardless of region
http://www.markwest-glass.com/DynamicPages/Enlargement.php?StockID=2360

I'd still go with Baccarat based on the id in the book and I think looking at other pieces it is c. 1840 ish.  I'll keep looking though.
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on December 22, 2012, 11:11:53 PM
I think these were the pair of  jugs that were on ebay recently, anyway, they are green opaline uranium glass - very similar to my little jug especially in the rim shape and the way the handle is applied.  The owner has attributed them to Harrach by linking what I think was the original image of my jug and also a link I'd referred to earlier in this thread to red rimmed opaline glass on Collectors weekly.  I wondered whether they might help confirm the Baccarat id given by Mark West or indeed lean the attribution further over to Bohemian again?  Anyone have any thoughts as to the colour of the opaline glass and the gilding?  I meant to link them when I saw them on ebay but forgot.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/76892-pair-of-harrach-creamers?in=441
thanks
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: azelismia on February 15, 2013, 03:28:42 AM
I don't know if your jug is identical in shape to the one on collectors weekly but that shape (the one from CW) is shown in one of the two harrach books in an opaline.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: bfg on February 15, 2013, 02:47:08 PM
 ??? where is m? mia for a week now
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 15, 2013, 03:09:44 PM
It's probably because of half term
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: bfg on February 15, 2013, 03:15:20 PM
ah, yes. good thinking Christine  ;D
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on February 17, 2013, 05:52:42 PM
I'm here :) just half term week and not been around.
Thanks Azelismia - mine is very similar but not identical - the differences being that the handle on mine is applied lower at the bottom and mine has an integral wide 'foot' shape to the bottom, and obviously the trailed rim.  But there are definite similarities.  I wonder if the greens are a Harrach 'take' on a Baccarat shape, or going back to Ivo's comments, whether mine might be Bohemian.  I think mine's still in question then :)
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: azelismia on February 18, 2013, 09:25:41 AM
Harrach made them in white with colored rims as well. Baccarat and Harrach are very very very similar in this period. You can't rule out Baccarat following Harrach on this instead of other way around as well. :)

is this a documented Baccarat shape as well or something?

I believe Josephine also was making opaline/alabaster with the colored rims. I'd have to check my books but I do think these are a lot earlier than the 1870's. I think 1850's.
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: azelismia on February 18, 2013, 11:03:32 AM
Actually, ignore my postings in this thread until i can get around to some fact checking in teh books. I keep looking at this forum right before bed when i shouldn't be getting side tracked into looking at books : )
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: azelismia on February 22, 2013, 07:49:54 PM
I think I was wrong about the shape. it does appear to be the same shape but it's supposed to be 1830 so I don't think it's really the same. they're little line drawings. Anyway. I take back everything I said about documentation from Harrach on this particular shape. Never mind. move along nothing to see here :)
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on February 22, 2013, 08:00:11 PM
ok thank you for checking, that's very kind of you.
 So, so far the  documentation we have is the Miller's book with an identification in it of Baccarat for my jug.  I'm comfortable with that until any further pattern books evidence is found.
m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2013, 09:15:04 AM
Searching through for Annathal pieces,  I came across a little opaline jug 'Bohemian probably Annathal at Schüttenhofen, mid 19th Century' sold through Fischer's Auction. 
It's not the same as mine, the foot is different and there is no trailed rim, although it has some similarities.  I'm just including it for reference.
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/kataloge/online-kataloge/196-i-europaeisches-glas-studioglass.html?kategorie=2&artikel=13067&L=&cHash=7fd66f58f8

m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on September 16, 2015, 09:47:37 PM
Ivo takes the prize I think :)  for first mention of Bohemian -
This one is the same shape as far as I can see, the same handle applied on the inside of the body at the top of the rim, same rim, also with red, circa 1840
and apparently Bohemian
http://service.kunstversteigerer.de/de/i/9476695/p/36/

It is enamel decorated, mine is not - but nice price  :D

The description says:
'Kleiner Henkelkrug
Böhmen, um 1840 Weißes Alabasterglas mit um die gewellte Mündung aufgelegtem roten Faden und Dekor in Matt-, Poliergold- und bunter Emailmalerei: Ranken mit Blattwerk und verschiedenen Blüten, u.a. Rosen sowie Weintrauben. Henkelende beschl. H. 11 cm'

m
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: Ivo on September 17, 2015, 04:25:03 AM
<folds both hands together and raises them above his head>   Yeayyy!
Title: Re: c1850 ? white opaline small jug applied red trailed rim
Post by: flying free on September 17, 2015, 07:15:01 AM
 :-* Ivo
  the jug shape of the body isn't identical and the handle doesn't have the thumb mark on it, but it's very close.
And interestingly I found two jugs in the Harrach book that have the tri-shape rim and the inside edge applied handle page 145 and 102.  They are larger jugs and different body shape but both opaline glass and date to c1845 and 1842.  The link between those two and my jug  is that going back to my original post, I wrote this:

'My searching brings up a jug (different decor but on opaline glass) that appears to have a similarly applied handle and shaped rim and with a rim that curves down at the front spout, that is attributed as probably Baccarat - it has a hand enamelled mark on the base 'P and then a number'. '

The link I gave to that piece has gone now, but that way of marking is seen on  Harrach pieces  (with the caveat that I have one piece that is similarly marked and is in question over whether Loetz or Harrach still - shape not matched to either maker)

m

m