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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: brucebanner on February 07, 2014, 11:21:00 PM

Title: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on February 07, 2014, 11:21:00 PM: This blue tankard looks very well made with wear to the base, the wife spotted it on the 10p shelf earlier on today i think it might be Whitefriars comparing it to a few other vases i own but i can only find one other linked to Thomas Webb, it's 41/4 inches in height and 3 inches across the rim any help welcome please.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: keith on February 08, 2014, 12:03:31 AM: When viewed from above does the optic ribbing have a square shape or 6 sided,if square Webb I think if not WF's, ;D
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Bernard C on February 08, 2014, 06:57:15 PM: This seems to be a range which has come up on the GMB several times, and opinions vary. I now sell these as "probably an overseas glassworks". See the following link, which itself links to at least one other topic on this subject:-
Three wide-based water/lemonade/juice jugs for attribution, please (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37495.0.html)
Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on February 08, 2014, 07:05:29 PM: It looks diamond shaped with six points when looked from above, thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: johnphilip on February 09, 2014, 08:23:04 AM: Defo not Whitefriars maybe Stuart by the colour ?
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 09, 2014, 09:59:11 AM: I seem to recall seeing brown coloured example very recently in a similar outlet, and if you look at this link..... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52111.msg296763.html#msg296763 ..... you'll see that Mel also had a blue/sapphire tankard that appears to be the same as this one.

And if you look here.......... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51074.msg289424.html#msg289424 ....... there is another blue/sapphire tumbler with the same pattern, and I think one or two folk have had these in recent times - so the conclusion is that they're fairly common.

They seem to have been dismissed, regularly, as W/Fs. on the basis of the curved swags from that factory, as opposed to the sharper pointed lines of T/Webb's Ribbonette, which was my suggetion - see CH (1800 - 1914), which shows Ribbonette pattern on page 433 - but despite my enthusiasm for this provenance regret it's not conclusive until we find the backstamp on something.
Somewhere in the above links I've shown what I believe to be a Ribbonette patterned brown tumbler (I have a short set of four) - and although none is marked, they have a striking overall similarity of shape to another marked set of T/Webb uranium tumblers I have - hence my opinion in making the connection with Ribbonette.
There are some striking similarities between these marked and unmarked tumblers............... the type of pontil depression is identical - the size and flared rims are the same. Unfortunately, there are differences.............. slight difference in thickness of glass, and the marked examples 'ring' when flicked, whereas the others don't.

I believe Nigel has also commented that he's not been aware of seeing a backstamp on this pointed pattern - and the same must be true for Bernard - otherwise he would have commented.
Glass from T/Webb is not always marked, although by the law of averages I'd have expected at least one of these pointed swagged pieces to have been found showing their backstamp - but it seems that so far this has not happened, and this may lean in favour of Bernard's comments. But if someone does have a backstamp on a pointed swagged piece do shout.

CH's book includes a variety of T/Webb optic patterns, and Ribbonette (1910 in origin) is the only one I'm aware of that shows pointed swags, and an absence of any curve to the design. This isn't conclusive, so it looks as though the jury remains out. Not to be confused with T/Webb's Wave pattern.

My own opinion would be that it's not Stuart, although that factory did produce a very similar blue. Whatever the origin of this pattern, it seems to surface regularly in the shape of water jugs, tumblers and tankards. Anyone know of other shapes?
Apologise if my links have crossed with the information provided in Bernard's.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Anne on February 09, 2014, 04:40:22 PM: Chris Harrison and I have some of these and we're not sure who made 'em either! None of his or mine are marked... the tankard pattern is very like the wavy one on the Webb wine glasses I have but the colours of many of the tankards are like some Stuart pieces....
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 09, 2014, 05:15:37 PM: to approach the matter from the opposite direction then................ is there anyone viewing this who has a piece of guaranteed (i.e. with a backstamp) Ribbonette? Surely in view of the proliferation of T/Webb glass there must be a known example of Ribbonette in someone's collection - I'm usually falling over T/Webb when I'm out looking. Is there a piece showing in the V. & A. archives?...... I can ask them if there's no positive response here.

CH doesn't index the name, despite showing a drawing of the pattern at the back of aforementioned book - neither is it indexed in his C20 glass volume - and can't see it in either Woodward's history of T/Webb or the Dennis Hall ring folder catalogue.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: johnphilip on February 09, 2014, 05:18:19 PM: Anne , Webb/Stuart for now gets my vote anyone else wana vote ?
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 09, 2014, 05:42:30 PM: here's a couple of Stuart 'Stratford Rings' in blue - neither marked unfortunately - bit unusual, but I get the impression that later pieces are seen more often without a backstamp than earlier ones. Is the colour similar? Although Stuart did produce more than one shade of green, as far as I know they made only this one sort of blue. Am I wrong with that assumption?
I still don't see this tankard as Stuart, so I'm going to sit on the fence and be a don't know ;)
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on February 09, 2014, 05:44:43 PM: I'll take this up the local glass museum, they may be able to help, seeing as though so many people have them and get a once and for all answer.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 09, 2014, 05:57:45 PM: I have a couple of water sets, and a couple of rounded body tankards. (Not in this pale blue though, various shades of greens and smoke)
But this is a very common design to find - too common to be Webb I would think, even if that was the conclusion at one time.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 09, 2014, 07:23:30 PM: quote..................."too common to be Webb I would think"........ some designs/colours from T/Webb are known to be very common, so I wouldn't rule that factory out on the grounds of something being abundant.
There have been periods when I've seen bullseye frequently, certainly more commonly than this particular pattern - in fact I'd say that bullseye is arguably the most common of all T/Webb designs, followed closely by the wave pattern.

Have to admit that I've never seen a piece of T/Webb in smoke - so if you have one of these with that colour Sue, it might spell the death for a Webb attribution. T/Webb did more than one green I believe.

It's frustrating that we can't source a piece of genuine T/Webb's Ribbonette - which might well settle the argument.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Bernard C on February 09, 2014, 10:20:30 PM: Well done, Paul. Please would all members ensure that they endorse any use of "Ribbonette" with Webb or T/Webb, as Paul has done here, if they are talking about Webb's tight zigzag pattern shown in Hajdamach I, p433.

Why? I suspect at least one other and possibly more British glass houses used the name "Ribbonette" for ranges of their own. Also at least one British pottery used it. So it's a word like "Grotesque" (S&W or Walsh) that always needs qualifying.

What convinced me that this pattern was an import, probably made to order for the British market via a large retailer, wholesaler, or factor, was the strange colour of my two coloured water jugs (see my earlier link). I cannot think of any British glass house that produced such odd colours mid C20.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Anne on February 10, 2014, 01:42:27 AM: I'm pretty sure that Chris Harrison has the tankard in blue and some Stuart glasses or bowls in the blue so may be able to tell us more if he's still reading this... I have Stuart blue bowls but my tankard is brown so no use as a match! ;D
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: ahremck on February 10, 2014, 07:17:02 AM: I have a water set of jug and pilsener glasses by Stuart in that blue colour. I recently saw another set some thousand miles away from home that I did not buy because I did not believe it was crystal, and there were no Stuart markings. But the colour was right. The pontil marks had been ground out so only a narrow ring was there to sit on.

In conclusion - If it does not have the weight for crystal it won't be either Stuart or Whitefriars, in my judgment. But someone else produced in that colour because I saw the second unmarked set in glass.

Ross
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 10, 2014, 11:00:04 AM: Hello all (thanks for the heads-up, Anne).

I previously commented on these in
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37495.10.html (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37495.10.html) and
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37495.10.html (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37495.10.html)

I now have English pint/20 ozs/560ml and 12 ozs/340ml tankards in this pattern in flint, blue, green, brown and amber. They are all heavy crystal and ping nicely. None is backstamped, and all have nicely ground pontils.

I am nowhere near them at the moment, so can't post any new photos. Sorry.

From my notes I can say, the blue and green colours are a perfect match for some Stuart Stratford bowls and glasses that I had (just like Paul S's, above). The amber is a molten caramel colour, darker and richer than the WF studio amber (quite Webb-like, in fact). The brown has a pinkish tinge and is much paler than bottle glass. None of the colours is UV-reactive.

I haven't ever seen any other colours. I guess blokes didn't fancy drinking beer out of pink pots...

I have two 1-litre/35 fl oz jugs in the same six-point pattern (in flint). One straight-sided and conical (a classic Stourbridge shape, so I'm told). The second with base and rim of equal diameter, but with a in-curved egg-timer waist. I spotted one of the latter among the mass of pieces that used to be lined up near the entrance to the Red House Glass Cone museum in Stourbridge six or seven years ago (maybe they still are). Don't know whether those items were all Stuart or not, but a lot of them definitely were.

I also used to have a half-litre conical jug and small posy vase with a crimped rim, both in flint.

I hope that all makes sense. If I had to guess, I'd say the glasses are Stuart. But I wouldn't want to pick a fight over it.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 10, 2014, 11:34:41 AM: I'm afraid my smoke coloured set went back to a charity shop, it would appear I have one greyish amber jug and two matching glasses only, in the water sets. I needed the cupboard space.
Pic of what I still have. At least it does show some of the colours rather well, the three glasses are quite accurate.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: keith on February 10, 2014, 11:47:50 AM: Mine,for reference, ;D
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 10, 2014, 03:53:40 PM: Stuart does seem to be a popular line of thought, and I wouldn't presume to judge - other than to comment that knowing that Stuart did apply backstamps - albeit not constantly - then surely wouldn't at least one of the many piece of this pattern that people own, show a Stuart backstamp?

The other rather blindingly obvious thought I've just had is............. thinking of this rather electric blue - I'm not aware that T/Webb ever did such a colour. Am I correct with that comment? :)
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 10, 2014, 04:46:21 PM: From the mid-1930s to the 1970s, I believe, Stuart used a green and gold sticker. I have two or three pieces with the stickers, and their bases are unmarked.

And, as I think Bernard pointed out on another thread, manufacturers making items for third parties (e.g. certain department stores) might be asked specifically not to mark the pieces.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 10, 2014, 05:38:35 PM: Hi Chris - unfortunately, I don't know for how long, and between what dates, the Stratford Rings design IN THIS BLUE was produced - as a service, of course, it seems to have lived for almost ever - 1920's apparently into the 1970's.
According to the books, Stuart were still acid badging with their name during the 1960's - and have to say that oddly I've never seen a label - perhaps they all get washed off by the time I see their glass.
I wasn't entirely sure if you were suggesting that between the dates you mentioned, Stuart used a label only, and weren't applying a backstamp.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: flying free on February 10, 2014, 05:49:04 PM: I have one of these tankards in green. Is there anything about this range that would preclude it being made at Stevens and Williams? The colour smoke for one thing?
m
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on February 10, 2014, 06:03:00 PM: I have dropped this off at Broadfield House glass museum today, they were not open but the secretary let me in and one of the curators had a look, she said it was English 1930's and either by Webb or Whitefriars, she was not impressed with the quality and said she did not like the handle, it did not seem right. She said over the next few days there will be a few specialists going in and out the museum and it's on the front desk for them to have a look at and get back with an answer if they know of course, she did not think it was Stuart at all.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 10, 2014, 06:13:44 PM: I'm rarely impressed with the quality of these pieces myself. The moulding on the tumbler in my pics is ok-ish; blurred in the bright green tankard, and almost missing on the dull green one. (it doesn't show up in my pic, but it can bee seen when you look through the whole body, towards the base.)

The amber is a very dirty sort of colour... ???
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 10, 2014, 07:30:48 PM: quote..............."she was not impressed with the quality and said she did not like the handle, it did not seem right."....... I wonder what she considered the handle should look like? ;)

As we know, it seems always to be the swags that persuade people to mention those two factories - but to come back to my earlier thoughts re the blue - I'm not aware that T/Webb ever used that colour, and the W/Fs. people here have denounced that suggestion. So............??

When you go back to the museum, you might ask if they are able to show you a piece of genuine T/Webb Ribbonette.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on February 10, 2014, 08:02:58 PM: Ok, will do and i'll take a photo of it, i thought the same when the handle was mentioned even said the same to the wife what's it supposed to look like, i'll also ask them about the colour.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on February 13, 2014, 04:09:40 PM: I have had a reply back from the glass museum and they are pretty sure this particular tankard in this pattern was made by Stuart in the 1930's.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2014, 04:26:25 PM: That's nice to know. Ta, Bruce.

For the record, all of my tankards and jugs are good quality. The pattern is prominent, the lip is smooth and level, and the handles are tidy and do what they're supposed to. ;D
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2014, 04:29:57 PM: Quote from: Paul S. on February 10, 2014, 05:38:35 PM
I wasn't entirely sure if you were suggesting that between the dates you mentioned, Stuart used a label only, and weren't applying a backstamp.

No, not at all. But logic would dictate that they'd use one method or the other, rather than both. Not that glass production is ever 100% logical, of course...
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 13, 2014, 05:05:38 PM: quote................. "and they are pretty sure" ........... doesn't sound like a very academic in depth provenance to me, bearing in mind that T/Webb are known to have made the same pattern, although probably not in this colour, and which is actually documented in CH - which the Stuart is not. Would appear they are also implying that Stuart produced this blue in the 1930's - which would mean some pieces would be showing a backstamp. Whilst we're not doubting that this blue was a Stuart colour, does anyone have a piece of Stuart in this blue with a backstamp.
I remain to be convinced until one of these surfaces with a backstamp. :)

However, slightly sheepish from deepest Surrey has just remembered this .............. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47818.msg269159.html#msg269159 - most definitely backstamped 'Webb', and showing the pointed Ribbonette design - so we know now what T/Webb Ribbonette looks like.

Might be of interest to show three water tumblers - only one of which is backstamped T/Webb. The interest factor lies in the similarity of shape and size, and hope you can see which one has a pattern either the same as, or very similar to, T/Webb's Ribbonette - the other two I'm never really sure about - they might be Water Wave or Fir Cone - would anyone like to comment
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2014, 05:12:47 PM: The second photo on the linked thread appears to be of an 8-pointed pattern...
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 13, 2014, 05:20:56 PM: well spotted Chris, I'd never noticed that. :) So, might that indicate that genuine T/Webb Ribbonette has the eight pointed pattern, whereas those pieces in this thread have only six - as also is apparent in the brown tumbler showing in this link, which I forgot to add :-[
But here it is.......
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2014, 05:50:34 PM: Ah! I know where I can find that tumbler in the mysterious turquoise blue. I'll see if I can get a pic of them tomorrow. Not marked, of course...if I remember right.

Are those other two marked Webb?
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on February 13, 2014, 06:23:47 PM: Is that Webbs Conifer in the middle and right in your picture Paul?, i come across that pattern all the time, i don't think i have had one signed, anyway like you say it will probably take a signed example to seal the deal and put the subject to rest once and for all. :)
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Paul S. on February 13, 2014, 08:14:47 PM: the centre glass (clear) and to the right (uranium) may well be conifer (oddly I can't find that pattern in CH's b & w drawings) - I get confused with conifer and fir cone in view of the obvious connection ;D Some of these indistince patterns are not easy to id (or to photograph).

I have four of the brown tumblers - none of which is marked........... six of the clear sort with three marked............. and six of the uranium type all of which are marked, and all those which are marked, have an identical T/Webb backstamp - the sort we usually refer to as 1935 - 49 (Dodsworth). Since two out of three are from the same factory, I had also connected the brown one on the basis of similarity - however, this may be too much assumption - it's quite possible that many pre-war tumblers had this sort of look.
It's perhaps significant that all of the clear and uranium glasses (the known T/Webb pieces), are thinner than the brown ones - they also have a good ring, and appear to be of a higher quality glass than the others - although it might be just the thickness making the difference.

It does seem that genuine T/Webb Ribbonette (with a backstamp) is very thin on the ground, despite having been in production for some years, and it will be interesting to see if any other pieces surface showing eight points, but at least we do now have a marked one for reference.

quote................"I remain to be convinced until one of these surfaces with a backstamp.".......... bit of a wooly comment, so just to clarify....... I was referring to the blue pieces with the pointy pattern, shown in this thread, which the museum are now suggesting are Stuart....... I need to see one of these pointy patterned pieces with a Stuart backstamp (especially as the museum reckon they come from the 1930's) - blue or othewise - to be convinced they are from that factory.
I also now don't think that all these tankards and jugs etc., with this type of Ribbonette pattern, are from T/Webb (for one reason I'm sure Webb didn't do this blue) - but just have a feeling that with so many coming to light there'd be at least the odd example with a T/Webb backstamp, so Bernard may well be correct in thinking of a Continental origin. :)
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 13, 2014, 09:51:39 PM: I wonder if they are indeed Stuart but newer than 1930s based on the colours and were made for Woolworths, which would explain their adequate rather than good quality, their prevalence, range of colours and lack of backstamp. We forget just how important Woolworths was in furnishing the lives of ordinary folk. Are they lead crystal?
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: bfg on February 13, 2014, 10:10:11 PM: Are we definitely discounting S&W from the list of suspects?

I mention S&W as the brown jug & glasses I have don't seem good matches colour wise for either Stuart or T/Webb and I've found a reference to this auburn brown (link below) I don't know who they are or how they came to their attribution are they one of us?

scroll down (past the Stuart Stratford rings dessert set in that blue, line 10 I think

http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/archive/garchivemaster9.html

Paul, if you would like me to send you one of the blue tankards to help with the comparison with Stuart's blue, let me know :-)
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 13, 2014, 10:18:51 PM: Auburn is a rich reddish amber according to Crystal Years, which doesn't sounds like that brown looks IMO
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: bfg on February 13, 2014, 10:25:31 PM: oh well, that's a non starter then. thanks anyway Christine, reddish amber?

does anyone have anything in this elusive colour they would care to post here for comparison ?
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2014, 10:39:19 PM: Quote from: bfg on February 13, 2014, 10:10:11 PM
I mention S&W as the brown jug & glasses I have don't seem good matches colour wise for either Stuart or T/Webb and I've found a reference to this auburn brown (link below) I don't know who they are or how they came to their attribution are they one of us?

That the same shape as one of my jugs (and those that Bernard posted elsewhere - amethyst and others) and looks to be the same light brown with a pink tinge that I mentioned when describing my "Stuart" tankards.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: flying free on February 17, 2014, 06:07:01 PM: The 'Ribbonette' wine service by Thomas Webb and Son's pattern number 33130 was introduced in 1910 and was still available in the 1927/28 catalogue (source: Charles Hajdamach, 20th Century British Glass)
No reference to anything later.
m
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 18, 2014, 01:01:56 PM: Some more photos of the six-pointed patternm as promised. A turquoise water glass and the "auburn" pint tankard. The third one was taken with flash.

Just one small pedantry.
In '"Art, Feat and Mystery", The story of Thomas Webb & Sons, Glassmakers', by H W Woodward [Keeper of Glass and Fine Arts for Dudley County Borough] the author mentions the Ribonette pattern. I've seen it elsewhere with one b, too.
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: flying free on February 18, 2014, 01:15:02 PM: Not pedantry at all, but in CH 20th Century British Glass there is an advert for it with it spelled 'THE "RIBBONETTE" PLAIN SUITE No. 33130' and Charles Hajdamach captions the plate 'The 'Ribbonette' wine service by Thomas Webb and Sons, pattern no .... ' ???
m
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 18, 2014, 01:32:36 PM: bothery experts! Not to be trusted, are they? ;D
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: flying free on February 18, 2014, 01:52:16 PM: ;D
Title: Re: Whitefriars or webb tankard help please.
Post by: brucebanner on June 12, 2015, 04:52:56 PM: Yes i'm going to drag this up again, could these be made by Krosno?, here is a Krosno blue jug next to another tankard same pattern with the near exact same ripple on the base outer rim.