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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: frenchbruce on May 20, 2008, 09:09:59 AM

Title: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
Post by: frenchbruce on May 20, 2008, 09:09:59 AM

Hi there..

What I am desperate to find is a replacement green glass frog which fits into the Sowerby's vase which has the petals turned upwards ( not down like most).
The frog has a polished cut top to it with several arms which hold it centrally inside the vase.

can any one help...even a picture would be great.

Thanks

bruce

Christchurch NZ
Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
Post by: Anne on May 20, 2008, 01:12:27 PM
Bruce, welcome to the board. It'll help us to know which Sowerby vase you mean as they did several. Is it like this one?
http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-144
Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 20, 2008, 05:27:43 PM
And probably what size as well...
Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
Post by: frenchbruce on May 20, 2008, 09:41:54 PM
Hi there Anne & Christine...
Yes the vase I have here is like the image you have forwarded.
The vase measures approx. 3.5 " in diameter at the base and about 6.25" at the top.
It has 8 upturned glass tongues.The vase also sits on a black glass pedestal.
I can recall the frog having a flat top surface to it...almost green crystal like, and not having flower stem holes, but rather the frog had a large central hole with several glass "spokes" which allowed the flower stems to be arranged around the outside of the frog. 

What did happen to the frog...Mmmm well believe it or not a large bunch of flowers was removed from the vase with the frog well attached..and it got thrown out with flowers ( many years ago).

So in memory of my mother who I know treasured this particular piece...I have decided to see if someone can find me a replacement frog, so the vase can be passed onto the next generation.
Best wishes to all...from New Zealand..

Bruce Whitfield
Sumner
Christchurch
Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
Post by: Bernard C on May 22, 2008, 02:57:53 AM
Bruce — Sowerby "Star" flower holders were made in three sizes and three shades of green, so we need more information to at least define what you need, before even starting helping you to find the correct one.

The best way of checking the size is to tell us the plinth number, if it has one.   They can be very faint, or not be present at all.   First the number.   Is it 2506, 2536, or something else?   Now the font of the punches used to stamp the number into the mould.   Is it large and flamboyant with lovely blobby ends to the characters, like this (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9904), or is it small, thin, mean and characterless?

Now the colour.   Choice of three main colours:
  • 1. A greeny yellow, looks like vaseline, and glows madly under UV light, or
  • 2. A warmish mid-green, which glows fairly strongly under UV light, or
  • 3. A mid-green which doesn't react at all to UV light.

    • The three colours are each fairly consistent, due to a superb glass technology department at the Sowerby glassworks, so, once we've worked out the colour the flower holder should be a close match.   If you haven't access to a UV lamp try a disco / nightclub / lighting shop / stamp collector.

    ... and up front apologies.   We've got the builders in from tomorrow, so I am likely to be off-air for a couple of weeks.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: frenchbruce on May 22, 2008, 05:16:54 AM
    Greetings from New Zealand Bernard..& thanks for coming back to us..

    The Black plinth has the numbers: 2506 and they are very neatly presented.

    The glass vase itself is a very translucent mid/light green...and the outer indentation of the petals appears to be etched..i.e. they feel rough to touch.

    I have a attached a JPEG of the treasure!

    Best regards

    bruce
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Bernard C on May 22, 2008, 06:46:34 AM
    Bruce — Your vase is a Sowerby 2505 S Lily, de-luxe edition with the satin finish petals.   I think it's the second colour above, but you still need to check it with a UV source to be certain.   It will require the medium sized "Star" flower holder in the matching colour.   If it is that second colour, then it's an early example from the 1930s.   Does that fit with its history?

    The S above stands for Small.   They started with two sizes, L and S, and later added two smaller sizes.   Instead of changing the name of yours they called the next size down "Posy";  we don't know the name of the toothpick sized version (with only six petals — they ran out of space), but everyone knows what you mean by a 2505 toothpick.   There's a moral in there somewhere, like "Don't name your chickens before they're all hatched".

    I will try to get you some dimensions once the builders have finished.   You need to know about all four Sowerby Star holders and the German lookalikes to be sure of getting it right.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Lustrousstone on May 22, 2008, 06:50:38 AM
    To my eye that looks to be the 1930s green uranium variant (Bernard's No. 2) and yes the petals are acid etched. I have an out-turned version of about the same size (without plinth or flower ring). The only way to be sure that it contains uranium is to use a UV light but the slight fuzziness of the deep green edges is usually a clue. In truth a non-uranium flower block would probably be OK as it's quite difficult to tell glass variants Nos 2 and 3 apart, even when side by side. With the block inside the vase no-one would know. Once we know what size you need, I suggest ebay as a good place to look. I'll have a look in the catalogue later.

    I've seen Bernard's reply but I'll let this stand
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Bernard C on May 22, 2008, 07:01:41 AM
    Quote from: Lustrousstone
    ... With the block inside the vase no-one would know. ...

    I'm going to take my life in my hands and disagree with Christine.  ;D

    In my opinion it wouldn't look right, especially in sunshine and some other lighting conditions.   And it wouldn't be right, either.   And you would know.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Leni on May 22, 2008, 07:34:28 AM
    As a 'perfectionist' (NOT obsessive / compulsive at ALL  ::) ) I have to agree with Bernard!  ;) 

    Good luck with finding a replacement flower holder, Bruce.  I'm sure you'll have fun confusing ebay sellers by asking, "Exactly which shade of Sowerby green is the flower holder you have for sale? 1, 2 or 3?"  >:D  LOL  ;) 
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: frenchbruce on May 22, 2008, 08:44:11 AM
    Mmmmm...hey I didn't want to introduce a bun fight over my glass vase! but I'm a little confused re the numbering...Bernard calls mine a 2505S  and its certainly not toothpick sized...and the number on my black plinth is 2506.

    Personally..I'll be happy to get any green glass frog that runs with the design that Sowerby used on this particular vase..whether it be radioactive or not  :) :)

    bruce

     
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: frenchbruce on May 22, 2008, 09:08:52 AM
    Just to add a bit more to my puzzle....one of the strange distinctive bits of info about the frog I'm looking for was that the top of it was quite flat..as I said early on...I can remember it having an almost crystal cut flat surface to the frog...almost like it had been ground and then etched smooth...but.. I'm no expert in Sowerby and all i can say is the lost frog did not look like the one in the JPEG I've found here...


    The mystery deepens!

    Moderator: see lower down the topic for an eBay link to the image referred to
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Lustrousstone on May 22, 2008, 11:33:33 AM
    We quite like FRIENDLY bunfights,  :angel: I too would probably want a matching uranium flower block, so it really depends how much Bruce wants one at all. The shape is another issue and I will look in the catalogues this evening.

    Your vase number is confusing but correct. Glass and ceramics manufacturers loved to confuse with their numbering systems. 2505 was the style, 2505L was the large, your apparently medium sized vase is the 2505S (small), the later introduced smaller vase was the 2505 posy and the teeny vase the 2505 ??, now known as the toothpick. Confused, join the club! Plinth numbers and vase numbers didn't match

    Bruce, can you provide a link to the blue vase picture please. As it's not your picture it's naughty to attach it here (copyright issues) but a link is fine
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Anne on May 22, 2008, 02:47:56 PM
    Seconding what Christine says about the pic copyright - if it's someone else's pic please either ask their permission to reuse or let us know and we'll remove from the topic.

    OK, to finding you a replacement frog... can someone tell me what size the frog would be please? Or can Bruce tell me what the internal diameter of the vase is?

    I went rummaging in my glass cupboard and found the one pictured below which looks like it may be the one (perhaps Christine can confirm please?) - it's a uranium green , etch-marked on the bottom PATENT APPLIED FOR, overall width is 4¼" (110mm) and 3" (75mm) tall. (I even remembered to do the metric sizes!!!  ;D)  I checked Glen's Sowerby catalogue CD (volume 2) and my 8-spoked frog is shown in the late 1930s with the 2482 vase and the 2583 vase, but I can't make out whether the 2505 uses the 6-pointed star frog or the 8-pointed one as shown in Bruce's other pic above or either depending on which catalogue I'm looking at! (Help!)

    By the way Bruce, I used my moderatorial wizardry to rotate your image so we can see it without getting a crick in the neck!  >:D
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Lustrousstone on May 22, 2008, 06:26:13 PM
    You're right it's confusing.

    As far as I can see, Sowerby made two flower holders: the Derby which is round with small holes surrounding a large central hole and the Star which is the one we have here.

    The star came in three sizes, 2.25, 3.25 and 4.25 (those 0.25 might be 0.5, can't do fractions and can't see catalogue clearly enough).

    All vases of the right sort of size seem to have the eight-point Star to match their eight points!  Measuring inside my Iris 2505 and studying the scuff marks I would go for the largest one. The 3.25/5 would appear to slip further down than the scuff marks.

    Just to confuse matters even further, the largest (9 inch) 2505, whether Iris or Lily was also sold as a salad bowl. When sold as a centrepiece, the catalogue seems to show a different flower holder for the 9 inch, maybe a block or a Derby.

    The 2505 also had an upright form and was sold as a celery, or with a holder as a vase!

    Al info from Glen's CD
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: frenchbruce on May 22, 2008, 10:36:55 PM
    Hi Christine..thanks for your input...sorry about the image without an acknowledgement link...:

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ART-DECO-SOWERBY-STUNNING-BLUE-GLASS-VASE-FROG-1930S_W0QQitemZ350062494516QQihZ022QQcategoryZ70031QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Back to my own green vase....if I place a roll of paper in the vase and measure the diameter at the bottom of the vase..it appears to be approx. 2.5 " and tapering out towards the top to about 3" roughly so a frog that is about 3" overall in diameter at the top would sit into position okay.
    This means I guess that the mid sized frog is what I'm looking for because the small one would sit down too low.
    Radioactive or not....I'm won't be picky...I would just take what I can get...

    Regards

    bruce

    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Bernard C on June 07, 2008, 04:16:44 AM
    Quote from: Lustrousstone on May 22, 2008, 11:33:33 AM
    ... the later introduced smaller vase was the 2505 posy ...

    Christine — No it wasn't, it was, to the best of my knowledge, the 2505 Posy, that is unless you have evidence that it was also called the 2505 posy.

    Quote from: Lustrousstone on May 22, 2008, 11:33:33 AM
    ... and the teeny vase the 2505 ??, now known as the toothpick.   ...

    Christine — No it isn't — at least I wasn't aware of it.   I just said: we don't know the name of the toothpick sized version (with only six petals — they ran out of space), but everyone knows what you mean by a 2505 toothpick.   Not quite the same.   

    Quote from: Lustrousstone on May 22, 2008, 11:33:33 AM
    ...   Plinth numbers and vase numbers didn't match.   ...

    Christine — Oh, yes they did!   The 2616 plinth was designed for the 2616 vase, for example.   Sometimes they matched, sometimes they were consecutive, sometimes with larger gaps.   There were no rules.

    Quote from: Lustrousstone on May 22, 2008, 11:33:33 AM
    ...   Glass and ceramics manufacturers loved to confuse with their numbering systems.   ...

    Confuse who, Christine?   You and me today, perhaps, with our scanty and imperfect knowledge, but certainly not their employees, agents and customers at the time.   It was the language they used to communicate, and very effective it was as well.   Just look back through Adam's postings to this message board to see how clearly he remembers Sowerby pattern numbers.

    Quote from: Anne on May 22, 2008, 02:47:56 PM
    ...   I went rummaging in my glass cupboard and found the one pictured below which looks like it may be the one (perhaps Christine can confirm please?) - it's a uranium green , etch-marked on the bottom PATENT APPLIED FOR, overall width is 4¼" (110mm) and 3" (75mm) tall.   ...

    Anne — That's the one that fits the 2505 L Iris / Lily / Celery, and a nice early example too.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Anne on June 07, 2008, 11:39:02 AM
    Bernard, good to see you're surviving the builders! :)  Thanks for the confirmation - I have a clear 2505 vase in the cupboard as well so I'll try it for size - hadn't thought of doing that as it's a different colour glass (doh!)! ::) It does fit my green F2583 vase (http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-536) though.
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Charmunn on November 06, 2020, 08:21:55 PM
    Hi I'm new here and from Auckland - I just started collecting glass & I'm a bit late to this thread, but thought I'd see if Bruce found his 6 point vase frog?
     I found one last month but mine has a big chip off one of the points and is flat on top. The picture in the Sowerby 1933 catalog looks the same.
    Title: Re: Sowerby green depression glass vase frog
    Post by: Anne on January 02, 2021, 05:02:31 PM
    Hi Charmunn and welcome to the board. Thank you for showing your 6 point frog, I've not seen one of those before.