Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: mhgcgolfclub on March 27, 2012, 09:41:02 PM
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2 new pieces for my collection a celery and sugar bowl by Joseph Webb of Stourbridge pictures for reference.
The celery registered 23rd June 1853 and the sugar bowl 15th June 1854.
The celery stands 9.5" / 24cm and weighs nearly 1.5kg
Roy
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Those are nice Roy ;D
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hello Roy - you've impeccable taste as usual........knew I should have gone back to that shop ;)
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Thanks Christine and Paul.
It would look like Joseph Webb registered each piece rather than the pattern :)
Roy
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I have just acquired this Joseph Webb, Stourbridge, lidded bowl, which seems to be a companion for Roy’s celery vase. Lozenge mark to stem. The indentations on the lid and rim are nicely matched, and the lid has an inner rim to help locate it firmly on the body. The clarity of the glass is very good, as is the accuracy of the frosting. Interestingly, the base of the foot rim appears to have been ground flat then frosted to match the body. The multiple images seen through the ovals make the whole piece quite spectacular.
Bears the same registration lozenge as the celery vase (for 23 June 1853 – registration no. 91476). This registration number appears on page 19 of Jenny Thompson’s ‘Supplement to the Identification of English Pressed Glass 1842-1908’ as ‘sugar bowl (oval pattern)’, so here we have two different pieces bearing the same lozenge, thus apparently putting paid to Roy’s supposition that Joseph Webb registered each piece rather than the pattern.
I’ve seen several reports that Joseph Webb’s mould were sold to Edward Moore of South Shields in 1888. Indeed, Jenny Thompson shows a drawing of a lidded bowl with ovals (with apparently a similar lid to mine) from Edward Moore’s Supplement to the Pottery Gazette, 1888, equating it to Joseph Webb’s RD 93626 of 17 December 1853 (bowl with cover and stand – oval pattern). Does anyone actually have pieces (or just photos or drawings of pieces) of Edward Moore’s pressed glass that can be similarly related to the designs of Joseph Webb, please?
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I should think everyone's forgotten this thread, and I only re-discovered it after finding part of Joseph Webb's Rd. 93626 earlier today - this is another of their pressed pieces carrying the rows of clear ovals cut through frosting - you can see the similarity of the decoration with other pieces shown earlier in this thread. Unfortunately, I've found only part of 93626 - the full set of which comprises under plate and lidded bowl, and is mentioned in Fred's final paragraph where he refers to a drawing in Jenny Thompson's Supplement - page 19 top - showing the three pieces. Attached is a picture of my underplate - which in view of the lack of crispness of the lozenge details was, in my opinion, unlikely to have been pressed in 1853, but when I don't know. Have also attached the Kew Archives picture showing the full three pieces as Registered. From the top clockwise the diamond reads.... Y - 17 - 1 - A.
Sorry to say Roy, but it wasn't a celery that was Registered on 23rd June 1853, but an un-lidded sugar, and this is confirmed in Jenny Thompson, and mentioned by Fred - page 19 of the author's Supplement - and corresponds to Rd. 91476 Request please - if a lozenge is legible then it does help massively if the Rd. is also provided.
Pressed manufacturers in the C19 not uncommonly Registered a design or shape, and then knocked out more shapes and sizes etc. under the one original Registration - and to some extend this appears to be what Joseph Webb had in mind - but somewhere along the line this idea lost it's way and it seems the factory thought it necessary to Register three shapes, each carry the same ornamental decoration. However, as we've discovered, there are more than three shapes (with this decoration) that come under the umbrella of Webb's 1853 and 1854 design Registrations.
In addition to Rd. Nos. 91476 and 93626 mentioned by Fred, there is a third Registration 96056 dated15th June 1854, allocated to a covered sugar. Roy quotes his sugar bowl as having a lozenge for this Registration, although it would appear his example is without its lid.
These three Registrations from 1853/4, appear as chronologically consecutive Nos. from Joseph Webb in the Board of Trade Registrations, and it's not entirely clear why the factory felt the need to Register additional shapes on which to use simply the same ornamentation, when it's clear that there are indeed some shapes i.e. Roy's celery and Fred's lidded bowl that appear to have been un-Registered but which carried this already recorded oval decoration.
There is a very similar example of this ornamentation of ovals, from Joseph Webb, Rd.98201 Registered on 18th November 1854 - a shallow dish with two rows of decoration running around the rim area - so obviously ovals were 'in' for 1854.
So, to recap....... the first of these Registrations - all mentioned in Thompson - carrying ornamentation of ovals appears to be :-
91476 dated 23rd June 1853........ allocated to an un-lidded sugar - see attached picture of original image from Kew Archives - not yet surfaced on the GMB??
Additionally, it appears that a celery is also classified under this design Registration, and likewise a pedestal mounted lidded bowl.
93626 dated 17th December 1853....... given to the lidded bowl with under plate - see attached picture from the Kew Archives - apart from my plate, the other parts not yet surfaced on the GMB??
96056 dated 15th June 1854 ......... given to a lidded sugar - see attached picture from Kew Archives - Roy has the bowl only for this piece.
have run out of steam - I've had a very heavy cold/flu bug for some days, and at the age of 49 it's taking its toll on my ability to ......uhmmmm - forget now. ;)
have a look at this and criticize, correct etc., sorry not all pix are as clear as I would like - but just thought it worth a few words to try and simplify what appeared to be a bit of a jumble. :)
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Thank you, Paul - more grist to the mill.
Fred.
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I'm not sure if this should be here. I think the RD Reads 96544 but the pattern is not the same.
The sides are part frosted around the rim and bowl.
9 inches in total height, 5 inches across the rim and 4 inches across the base.
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Shots of the lozenge.
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Thank you for showing these, Chris.
What you are showing is indeed a lidded sugar from Joseph Webb's RD 96544, registered on 3 August 1854 - Parcel 1. The design is illustrated on page 19 of Jenny Thompson's 'Supplement to the Identification of English Pressed Glass1842-1908' (with illustration of optional cover).
I have one here at home without the cover but with the same part-frosted bowl. I will add your photos to the GMB RD database in due course.
There is a pedestal vase of mine from the same pattern (but with the bowl completely clear, i.e., no part- frosting) shown on the GMB RD database at
http://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-16243 (http://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-16243)
According to Jenny Thompson (A Supplement to The identification of English Pressed Glass 1842-1908, page 19), the full list of designs registered by Joseph Webb, Coalbourn Hill, Stourbridge, is as follows:
RD 80929** 11 October 1851 - Parcel 3 Dish (star shape)
RD 84300** 18 March 1852 - Parcel 5 (Fluted vase shape)
RD 84836** 23 March 1852 - Parcel 1 (Decanter shape - pattern of diamonds)
RD 91476 23 June 1853 - Parcel 2 (Sugar basin - oval pattern)
RD 93626* 17 December - Parcel 1 Bowl with cover and stand (similar oval pattern)
RD 96056 15 June 1854 - Parcel 2 (Similar)
RD 96544 3 August 1854 - Parcel 1 Pressed glass basin and cover to be used with or without cover
RD 98201** 18 November 1854 - Parcel 4 Pressed glass dish (similar oval pattern)
RD 109434** 21 March 1857 - Parcel 3 Design for ornamenting glass dishes (petal pattern in centre, main body consists of oval pattern forming rows of bands)
RD 114989** 28 August 1858 - Parcel 2 Design for ornamenting pressed glass dishes (similar to above)
Those RDs marked ** - I have neither design illustrations or photos of actual examples
Those RDs marked * - I have no photos of complete actual examples.
Following Joseph Webb's death in 1859, the Coalbourn Hill Glass Works was run by Joseph's wife, Jane Webb, and various executors, and their design registrations have been extensively discussed on the GMB.
Fred.
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assume from your comments Fred that you'd like pictures of Kew drawings for those double asterisked items??
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Yes please, Paul - thank you for your kind offer - (either if you already have them or can get them from Kew in due course).
Fred.
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In theory I should already have them as they are lozenge period designs - will try to post over the course of the next 24 hours.
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Thank you, Paul.
Fred.
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Here are the six Registrations, as requested - assume No. 3 is 84386 rather than 84836, and the last two will appear separately on the next post. Sorry not all pix are as clear or sharp as we might like - the mid C19 was a long time ago.
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and the remaining two..........
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Thank you very much, Paul - great job done!
You are quite correct regarding my transposition of RD 84386 to RD 84836 - is there a word for a typing 'spoonerism' ?
Joseph Webb (and Jane Webb &c) pieces are comparatively uncommon, so it may be many years before I get photos of the pieces remaining to fill in their gaps on the GMB RD database, but your pics of the design representations are crucial to that end.
The quality of the pressing and finishing of the documented Webb's glassware was excellent by anyone's standards (especially considering that they were made so early on in the history of British press-moulding) and I look forward to further discoveries from their output.
Fred.
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yes, in polite circles it's called a 'typo' ............ in less polite company we might say something else. ;D
I had a vague feeling I might have owned or have an example of Rd. 98201 - will have a look in the sheds.
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To complement the second of Paul's design representations shown in reply #15 above:
photos of an oval dish from Joseph Webb's RD 114989 of 28 August 1852 - Parcel 2. Measures 24x17x4cm.
(Permission for the re-use of these images on the GMB granted by Gary Holland
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I like those pix Fred - clear glass when in sharp focus against a matte black background does make for a good image.
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I must admit that I did tweak them slightly, Paul - they were originally against a blue background - and I played with the brightness and contrast.
Fred.
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I have picked up a couple of the RD 114989 dishes in the last week. One is oval and the other oblong. On the oval version, like on Fred's pic, the left and right values on the registration diamond are swapped. Everything is correct on the oblong version. These are high quality pressed flint glass, easily the equal of the best from the Manchester factories.
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Thank you for showing these, Neil.
I will add the photo of the oblong dish to the GMB RD database in due course.
Fred.