Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: saorsa on May 21, 2007, 02:01:59 PM
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to Hell with it i went to the auction house and picked it up lol
here are the pictures
it has a couple of dings and the stopper has been repaired at the top of the neck , i think the cane reads 1840 or 1848 ? when it is enlarged see what you all think
it weighs 2.1 kilos , is 6.5 inches tall x 4.5 inches at the base
ta
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7142
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7141
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7138
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7139
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7140
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Hi,
The date cane reads 1848 to me. I know that there have been a few threads on the 1848 date cane, but I am not a weight collector, so I cannot be of more help, sorry. ::) :D
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I do not know a whole lot about Whitefriars but they have a distinct look to my eye. This lovely bottle looks very Whitefriars to me.
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Hi,
Having had a look in the Letts guide (the one by Sarah Rossi) it does look like Whitefriars based on the canes, date and dimensions. The four seperate canes making up the date seems to be consistent as Letts refer to it as "crudely" marked in four canes. I am sure one of the "experts" will be along to confirm or show me the fault of my ways ;D ;D ;D
I am only slightly jealous >:D
Kind regards
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Thanks all for taking the time and trouble to consult your books it is very much appreciated , unfortunately , i am dealing in glass items to fund my other hobby ( i promote a band) . therefore as most of my bits and pieces it will be for sale shortly and will hopefully go to someone who can truly appreciate the work and not as i do as just a way to a means
Thanks for everyones contributions so far
Greg
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...well I could offer you 20 for it now....and another 20 for your effort ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D >:D >:D
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lol how did you know i paid £20 for it ha ha i wish !!!
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...well I found a value for it.....so my bid is not going to be worth much unless you stuff up the listing badly ;D ;D ;D I would suggest you list it under Farming, Garden, Implements...Lots of people there need bottles, and that is all it is >:D
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Greg - do tell us about the band... in the cafe.
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I have read several threads on the "English 1848 cane" - the general conclusion is that
1. the year (1848) is a fake;
2. it is most likely Walsh-Walsh (possibly Arculus) around 1920/30 - see Robert Hall "Old English Paperweights" (page 114).
1848 seems to be the only year used in this manner (for English paperweights - many other fake years in Murano paperweights) - but this one seems to be quite common: I have seen (on the internet) pictures of at least 5 paperweights / ink wells with canes of this type.
Bob Hall estimates the example in the book at $ 1000-1250 ... but my feeling is that the prices mentioned in the book include some wishful thinking - at least they don't seem to be possible on ebay nowadays: there was one of this type sold on ebay in February - for $ 225.
Several attributions are also for Whitefriars - but there are doubts that Whitefriars produced paperweights before the 1950ies.
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i just did a quick web search after some of the comments
i have included the weblink http://www.lhselmanltd.com/auc23/au23.html#???-??? then browse down item 101.
the search highlighted initially .
www.lhselmanltd.com/auc23/au23.html
... excellent Clichy lace ground millefiori scent bottle, with a chain of twelve ... pink, cadmium green, cobalt blue and white, around a central fake 1848 date cane. ...www.lhselmanltd.com/auc23/au23.html - 215k - Cached - More from this site
it seems that the date canes were placed in the 2nd row whereas mines is in the 3rd row and also in green canes
i dont know if that makes any difference , but may be of some help or for discussion
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Clichy canes look very different from those in this bottle. Perhaps 1848 canes were incorporated in newer pieces hoping to pass them off as Clichy.
Regardless of who made this bottle (I am still inclined to think relatively recent Whitefriars) it is a very nice find. The canes are really lovely.
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1. Confusion of text
I think the references to Clichy are irrelevant. It looks to me as though: ... excellent Clichy lace ground millefiori scent bottle, with a chain of twelve ... pink, cadmium green, cobalt blue and white, around a central fake 1848 date cane. ...
is a mix of text from two different listings in the referenced site. The Clichy part (the text up to "chain of twelve") is from item 80 and this has no comment about an 1848 date. The "central fake 1848" part is from item 83 which is a "Rare Baccarat Dupont millefiori inkwell". "Dupont" items have Baccart-style canes and they do not look like Old English ones.
2. 1848 canes
I am pleased to see that in Larry Selman's text for item 101 Bob Hall's book is quoted which states some of the facts about Arculus, and possibly Walsh-Walsh, using 1848 date canes in items made in the 1920s. However, the title of item 101 is: "Whitefriars-type / Walsh-Walsh ...". This shows that Larry was still hanging on to the ideas of 19th century Whitefriars weights and bottles, even though most folk now accept that this was very unlikely.
The date in Saorsa's bottle is, as Deltab says, clearly "1848". It is the same as a poorly formed one (http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/1848mess.jpg) shown by Alan (Tropdevin) in another message (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,11520.msg84381.html#msg84381). The style of the numbers and the colour are identical. Alan's example is from one his several Arculus / Walsh-Walsh examples made in the 1920s / 1930s.
3. Position of the 1848 cane
This is something I know little about but having the date cane in the third row from the outside may be rather unusual. I know of another example which has "1834" in the third row (see below). Perhaps Alan can comment further in this?
4. Reference Material
Any book published prior to the mid-1990s, such as Sarah Rossi's The Letts Guide to Collecting Paperweights, will attribute various inkwells and paperweights to 19th century Whitefriars. This is because at that time, it was the general belief, even though this had been queried from, at least, 1987.
There are catalogue details from the 1930s (Skinner-Hill) showing items with fake date canes. There are actual provenanced canes donated to Broadfield House Glass Museum in the UK. In the 1999 PCA Bulletin, a weight was discussed which had the typical look of one of the "so-called Whitefriars" ietms but included a cane for "1834" - which pre-dates the earliest known (1845) examples by Bigaglia (using Franchini canes) in Italy! This weight had canes and a central White Rabbit silhouette that could be matched to Walsh-Walsh.
Even in the face of definite evidence to the contrary, some people still cling to a "Whitefriars" attribition. ::)
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Here, here, Kev! Please let us kill the 'Antique Whitefriars' myth once and for all.
There is no evidence that Whitefriars made any paperweights before the 1930s, and it seems they made very few until the 1950s. Every weight that can be checked from pictures in older books (and current Larry Selman adverts), referred to as 'Antique Whitefriars', was made by Arculus or Walsh Walsh (who took over Arculus around 1930). Bob Hall interviewed one of the Arculus family who stated he had a job on Saturday mornings making the set-ups, and remembered putting in the 1848 date. The canes in these weights can be matched to Arculus / Walsh Walsh canes in Broadfield House Glass museum, and in some cases to items still within the possession of the Arculus family. I would have thought that evidence ought to convince any reasonable person.
The bottle is not Clichy, not French, not 1850s. It is English, made in the 1920-1930 period, and is a fairly typical example. The quality of Arculus / Walsh Walsh weights varies tremendously - some are really crude, whereas a few stand comparison with any antique maker, and are excellent value for money.
Incidentally, I have approximately 20 weights or bottles with the 1848 date in - if anyone would like to buy them as Clichy, at Clichy prices, they are more than welcome!
Alan