Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ivo on May 25, 2010, 08:49:23 AM

Title: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on May 25, 2010, 08:49:23 AM
This incredibly fine Latticino bottle 7" with a pink/ cranberry thread around the neck jumped off a stall at the Edinburgh antique fair last week. It has a tiny broken pontil, as expected.  To me this colour combination smacks of Saint-Louis - but could be Venetian or English as well.
Any hints, anyone?
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: TxSilver on May 25, 2010, 01:50:35 PM
I vote for Murano, Ivo. Three companies I know did the tight latticino like this -- Venini, Barovier & Toso, and AVeM. There may be others.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on May 25, 2010, 04:01:27 PM
 :hiclp: :hiclp: Thanks Anita. Any idea of a time frame? I won't pin you down on a decade or 3....
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: TxSilver on May 25, 2010, 05:19:20 PM
Most of what I've seen has been mid-century. Your vase looks like it could be an older one, but I don't know. I like the red rim. Are you thinking maybe 1940s? Anything I would say would just be a guess without finding the design.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: johnphilip on May 25, 2010, 07:16:03 PM
There was a Scottish firm that did similar , quite early as well , Jenkins comes to mind i will check later when the wine is finished . Yes i was amazed when i saw my first piece in a book . jp
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Paul S. on May 25, 2010, 08:28:15 PM
I'd like to join in this one please, if only because it makes me look at an area about which I know exceedingly little :)   The world and his wife created 'latticinio', of course  -  but taking just the U.K. and the states ........Looking through the books, re jp's comments, but going back into the C19, Alexander D. Jenkinson(Norton Part Glass Works), Ediburgh  -  are quoted as leading exponents of the Venetian-style  -  although the only image of their 'latticinio' I can see shows pieces without the same really tight threading.   Apparently Jenkinson ended up being part of Webb's Crystal.   Staying with the U.K., and again in the latter part of the C19, Stevens & Williams certainly created some 'latticinio' pieces, with possibly a tighter pattern.  As no doubt everyone else knows this 'facon de Venise' style was popularised by the material created by Salviati - in the C19 - and his connections with London - thence Powell etc., although Salviati's creations are in the more florid Venetian style.   Staying with The C19 we apparently have a company by the name of Dorflinger & Sons, White Mills, Penn., who also dabbled in about 1890 - 1900  -  and my only available image of their work shows the tightest of all lines, but a piece of more simple design.  Cranberry, as a colour, was typical of much C19 work, so I don't think there is much mileage there re attribution.      Ivo, why is it expected to have a tiny broken pontil, please? - and an obvious question, what degree of wear is there.       Sorry if this is a little amateurish, but you never know, might be an atom of use in there somewhere, and as I say it does help me. ;D
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on May 25, 2010, 08:49:22 PM
Fascinating - especially as we were staying close by Norton Park last week! The only piece I can find is in "Scotland's Glass" - and what a fine book it is - and I even handled one of those pieces. It was quite fine - but not like the one at issue.

As for tiny broken pontil, I know that this very fine work is done on a tiny pontil rod, more a knitting needle than a yardstick - and that therefore the broken pontil is very slight as well. It is so discreet that it does not require grinding or polishing.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: langhaugh on May 26, 2010, 07:36:32 AM
The piece of Jenkinson fenicio I have (it's also pictured in Scotland's Glass) has a pontil mark that is significantly bigger than a needle mark. I'd stick with Murano.

David
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: johnphilip on May 26, 2010, 08:33:21 AM
Thanks Paul i believe it was Jenkinson , the trouble is i have a wardrobe full of glass books to look thru ...!not many clothes . I am not saying this piece is Scottish but knew it would arouse an interesting thread .jp
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Paul S. on May 26, 2010, 09:43:16 AM
jp - hope you didn't take too much umbrage at my jumping in before you, just that it gave me a chance to rifle the books and learn a bit more.    Knowing very little about this type of glass, I do however, get the impression that because almost every European country produced material like this    -   then seems to me could be very difficult to come up with an accurate attribution, unles of course you find the exact illustration somewhere  -  as Anita has already commented. :)    Meant to say that in looking throught my few books it struck me as noticeably that I could see almost nothing of C20 pieces in this style.    Have I missed them somewhere?
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: johnphilip on May 26, 2010, 10:18:09 AM
No Paul i was more than pleased because you may have noticed i am getting lazy in old age , i just love it when people take it up and expand it,  thats the great thing about this forum and all the wonderful people and we all learn so much . thanks again jp
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: TxSilver on May 26, 2010, 01:49:42 PM
A puzzler on the vase is the foot, or lack of one, I should say. I searched a little last night for old Murano vases with this type of bottom and found only one. It was by a company, Ferro & Figlio, that I doubt did Ivo's vase. I've not seen latticino of this form done by them. The bottom of the vase is not typical of Murano, but may be found. Your vase is a puzzler, Ivo. My thoughts on its age have gone back further after looking at pictures of old pieces last night.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on May 26, 2010, 02:41:42 PM
Thank you for looking into it - I agree it is not an easy subject. Latticino, Mezza-filigrana and Zanfirico to start with - what is the proper usage? Then time and location - how to distinguish between antique Venetian and more recent work? It seems that in the 19th century this style was made in many countries - including the UK, Belgium, France, Spain and no doubt other countries as well. Time someone did a book on it....
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on April 07, 2011, 11:15:08 AM
Ivo, my knowledge on this is limited to zero, but I found a great list of photos  and wondered whether you'd seen them (apologies as you probably already have seen them and have many more resources at your fingertips than I) - the book I think is La Cristallerie de Clichy: Une prestigieuse manufacture de XIXC siecle.
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on April 07, 2011, 01:16:39 PM
Yes I did follow the discussion and added Clichy as an alternative - but I meanwhile found out that very similar work (including the pink edge!) was also produced in Belgium - so keeping my options open.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on May 01, 2012, 01:33:03 PM
these are not the same but reminded me of the intricacy of your piece
http://www.flickr.com/photos/unforth/3277669304/in/photostream/
apparently 'possibly Low Countries, Liege or Antwerp'
m

p.s. there are some beautiful pics to flick through on that link as well.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on May 01, 2012, 01:53:49 PM
wonderful pictures - thank you.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on October 29, 2012, 12:19:15 AM
How about Spanish?
In Glass by George Savage 1972 edition page 70, there is a Cantaro 'with latticino decoration in the Venetian manner. Spain. Eighteenth century'.  The foot has the spirit of your vase and whilst the latticino is in strips separated by clear glass, it seems to be the same as yours.  Would the red rim preclude Spain?
Can photograph and send a pic on email if you wish.

Bacchus used a red rim trail c 1850 as well, but that's as far as I 've got...no idea if they would have made something like this or used latticino or filigrana
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on October 29, 2012, 01:46:58 PM
the piece in the book is a combination in shape of some of these pieces, but the latticino is like yours.  The foot is very similar to the one on the very left of this link, which reminded me of your vase - which is why I was wondering if Spain may be an option.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/unforth/3277667334/in/photostream/
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2012, 08:32:03 PM
I thought you might like to see this piece from the Wallace collection (if you haven't already) - it's a very early piece c16th.  The tight knit effect of the latticino and the shape of the vase has some similarities with yours so I thought you'd find it interesting -  but the foot is very different and the latticino close up is completely different although superficially it has similarities - you can click on the picture and it enlarges so one can see how the latticino is done - amazing detail.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Venezia%2C_fiasca_da_pellegrino_con_vetro_a_retorti%2C_1550-1600_ca..JPG
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on April 25, 2013, 10:16:58 AM
Ivo, I've been looking for this for ages and I think I might have a possible!
I think it's possible it could be  Josephinenhutte c 1840
In my Nagel books for the J.J. Ludwig Regensburg sale there is a becher with the same foot and red rim, in latticino but instead of the strips of latticino being joined together as yours are, they have a slight clear gap between each one. 
The reference is  Vgl. Kat. Fischer Heilbronn (03/2005), Sammlung Dr Claus Arendt, Lot 870.
Obviously not a definite id, but you could now check it out maybe?
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on April 25, 2013, 10:54:51 AM
Thank you I've made a note to go and look for it as soon as time permits.
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on April 25, 2013, 03:41:11 PM
I'll email you some pics
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on September 24, 2013, 12:19:17 PM
Ivo have you ever seen this link
http://www.rossellajunck.it/pagina7.html

'Murano, Pietro Bigaglia, 1845-48
H. cm. 19 L. cm. 10'
m

Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on September 24, 2013, 12:26:50 PM
That solves it doesn't it?  Took a long while, I am both relieved and delighted.
Thank you
<kisses>
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on September 24, 2013, 12:51:25 PM
I hope so  :) I have no knowledge of this glass though, so hopefully Anita will be able to help you more on thoughts on similarities.
Very exciting if it is.
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on September 24, 2013, 01:02:54 PM

On this beaker it also says probably Bigaglia
it has a red/pink trailed rim as well
http://www.rossellajunck.it/pagina3bicchiereretortolibianchi.html

Nothing to match exactly on the museum site, but the last bottle (page 20) is interesting.


http://www.archiviodellacomunicazione.it/Sicap/opac.aspx?WEB=MuseiVE&LNG=ENG

m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: Ivo on September 24, 2013, 04:41:54 PM
http://www.cortepriuli.it/famiglia_bigaglia.html
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on September 25, 2013, 02:32:37 PM
Salviati used a similar version of the filigrana from what I can see, and they were very fond of trailed rims, so I searched the museum site to see if there were any clues.
I found one goblet here
http://www.archiviodellacomunicazione.it/Sicap/opac.aspx?WEB=MuseiVE&LNG=ENG
and
there are jugs and ewers with a similar foot to yours c. 1870's (different decor)
http://www.archiviodellacomunicazione.it/Sicap/opac.aspx?WEB=MuseiVE&LNG=ENG

http://www.archiviodellacomunicazione.it/Sicap/opac.aspx?WEB=MuseiVE&LNG=ENG
and here c.1860's
http://www.archiviodellacomunicazione.it/Sicap/opac.aspx?WEB=MuseiVE&LNG=ENG

so it's possible yours dates to around that or earlier perhaps and given the filigrana and shape? and it seems closest to the Bigaglia in terms of having all of  the filigrana, trailed rim, foot and shape so far.
m
Title: Re: Latticino from Saint-Louis or Murano?
Post by: flying free on September 26, 2013, 10:41:51 AM
sorry none of those links worked
if you go to the link and type in Salviati,
on page 29 you will find a number of ewers/jugs from the 1860's with a similar foot to yours
on page 43 some bottles and jugs from 1870's with a similar foot to yours
on page 97 a goblet at the bottom of the page with similar filigrana to yours and a red trailed rim.
 tip - if you click on the 3 little dots next to the page numbers, it quickly takes you up 10 pages in your search.

I don't know anything about Bigaglia but it seems he revived much earlier Venetian techniques in his glass, and that would fit also with the similarities with the piece in the Wallace collection?

m