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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 01:32:35 PM

Title: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 01:32:35 PM
I've been going round in circles with this weight.  Because of the colour of the dome and the finish on the base and the cane design and types of canes, I've come down on the side of Vasart. I had wondered if it might be a Paul Ysart weight as it fits well with one of his (at least I think it is) that I do have, but it has differences so I came down on the side of Vasart rather than Strathearn.  I've taken all the pictures by natural daylight which isn't good today I'm afraid.
Measures 3 1/8" wide approx by 2 1/2" high
Would I be right in thinking Vasart and what decade might it be please?
Thanks for looking  :)
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 01:40:08 PM
canes - it wouldn't let me upload a bigger pic but the yellow middles in the beige canes are whorls open ended as opposed to tubes.
and the yellow middles in the blue canes second row from outside are tiny yellow flowers.  The outer orange canes seem to have a very dark horizontal striped middle to them, but I can't get it to show.
I'll try and add a pic of the base.
p.s. I think the one on the left of my comparison pic above a Strathearn.
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: tropdevin on October 05, 2012, 03:14:16 PM
***

Hi m

I would vote for early Strathearn, but not with complete confidence, as it was basically the same people using many of the same canes that made late Vasart and early Strathearn. 

Alan
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 03:29:42 PM
Thanks Alan.  My musing and confusion over it was the colour of the glass which is blue (hopefully seen in the dome comparison shot as a fairly good likeness to colour).  I had thought that by the time of Strathearn the colour of the glass was a lot paler/whiter , but the canes and the  way they are configured and even the base made me think Strathearn.  I'm going to have another good go at trying to match the latticino twists - I've not been able to match the canes so far.  But then there are so many to go through and I'm trying to compare one at a time.
Thanks again
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: Derek on October 05, 2012, 07:12:53 PM
Hi m

The problem about matching canes or lattincino twists as Alan says, is that the workers AND canes moved with the factory - Vasart,  Strathearn and even Perthshire paperweights have been found with canes/twists from a previous factory.

Looking at the base of your weight,  there are none of the characteristic marks you would expect to see on a PY base. The base of yours is firepolished  which means its most likely to be Strathearn but could just be late Vasart. Looking at the very neat setup I am with Alan - early Strathearn.

The dark glass is usually caused by too much decolouriser (manganese or sodium nitrate) being added to the batch. Vasart and Strathearn would not have disgarded a batch of metal just because it had too much decolouriser although I agree that its less common to see dark glass in Strathearn weights.

Hope this helps

Best regards

Derek

Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 05, 2012, 07:39:01 PM
M meant the dark blue; not greyish clear glass.
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 08:18:28 PM
 ;D no, I did mean the dome colour which actually is blue not greyish clear , I just didn't explain myself very well.

Thanks Derek.  So probably Strathearn all things considered, but possibly Vasart -
The two things that cross over unless I've misunderstood what I've been reading is the colour of the dome but also the base finish.
Looking at Kev's site, I think the base looks like the one's id as button finish so I'm confused - there is evidence of grinding on If you scroll down to base finish it looks like the one that appears under Button base left hand side no 2  :-\
I'm sure it's just me wanting it to be Vasart rather than Strathearn  :-[ and I do see the canes indicate Strathearn probably  :-\

http://www.kevh.glass.btinternet.co.uk/pages/vas-strath/vas-strath.htm 
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 08:51:05 PM
Sorry, ignore my comment above about the base...I've just enlarged the pictures on Kev's site massively and it does look as though it's a fire polished base.  Apologies Derek.
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: Derek on October 05, 2012, 08:53:03 PM
Hi m

I spoke to Dave Moir on this topic last year. Dave worked at Ysart brothers, Vasart and Strathearn from 1954 - 1980 when Strathearn was taken over by Stuarts and the Strathearn brand came to an end.

He told me that fire polishing first came in towards the end of Vasart but by no means all the late weights were fire polished.  At Strathearn he was positive that ALL weights were firepolished.

The grinding done at Vasart was very cursory - it was basically just to remove the sharp edges where the weight was knocked off the iron. The grinding marks left a frosted surface which to my knowledge was never polished  (unless of course anyone knows different!).

It appears from the base picture of your weight as if it is just firepolished with the central area smooth but snapped off. If the central area had been ground then it would have a frosted appearance but you can see the canes clearly through the centre of your weight.

I think we should await further comment from Kev.

Derek
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2012, 09:02:48 PM
Derek you are right - see my apology in the post above yours   :)
And thank you for the added information.  I will get it right one day, it's all a learning curve  ;D but for now it fits very nicely where it's supposed to be, matching my other.
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: KevinH on October 06, 2012, 12:55:04 AM
Yes, definitely a fire polished base on yours, M.
Yes, I agree with an attribution of: Strathearn but maybe late Vasart Ltd.

Regarding the canes:
1.
Quote
... the yellow middles in the beige canes are whorls open ended as opposed to tubes.
Really!! I have never seen a whorl cane used in any Vasart (Ysart Brothers), Vasart Ltd. or Strathearn weight. Can you get a macro image of one or two of those canes (maybe even taking a photo through a hand-held magnifyer would help)?

2. Whenever I see the use of many of those canes that look like "snowflakes", or "stars/cogs with castelated points" (i.e. three points to each of the main points) my mind automatically locks in to "probably a Vasart Ltd. or Strathearn" weight. In fact at one point I used to believe, with no proper reason, that it indicated a Strathearn cane. Then I began to see that cane design in Vasart Ltd. weights. And then I noted a few in some Ysart Brothers (Vasart) weights! So, just like looking at base finishes etc., specific cane features can also be a bit of a problem when taken on their own.

Also, as an aside, please note that weight No. 15 in my article linked to above should be noted as being a PP1 from Perthshire Paperweights. I should have changed the attribution some time ago!
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 06, 2012, 09:02:55 AM
Hi Kev
Many thanks :)  I also thought that cane was a Strathearn cane I must admit, but I think I found one under Vasart paperweight somewhere so that probably added to my possibly thinking it might be. I've sent you an email with a high resolution picture on it that you should be able to enlarge to see them.  If you don't receive it please let me know.
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: KevinH on October 06, 2012, 09:45:33 PM
The possible whorl cane.

From the photos sent to me by M, I have cropped parts a created separate images for study here. The first two are of separate examples of the whole cane, with the possible whorl in the central element.

The other four images (next post) have been enlarged from the detail of a close-up photo and tweaked to try bring out the detail more clearly.

I think the "whorl" is actually a collapsed tube of yellow over clear with a yellow rod in the centre. But I can see the reason for this to be a possible whorl cane.

What do other folk think?

Anyone fancy studying the detail of their Vasart / Strathearn weights to see if a clear example of a whorl cane can be found?

Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: KevinH on October 06, 2012, 09:47:03 PM
And ...
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: mildawg on October 06, 2012, 10:07:26 PM
I don't see this as being a whorl, intentionally anyway. 
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 06, 2012, 10:53:22 PM
thanks Kev, you've done a great job :)
I see what you mean about a collapsed tube over a yellow rod.
The effect under magnification is how you've pictured them. I can't see any clear but perhaps that' swhat it is, a thin central rod with a tube around it and it's got squashed at the top so you can't see the clear surrounding the rod (if I've understood you correctly?) - Mind you in reality it is absolutely minute so it's very difficult to see anything without the magnification on the computer, but it stood out for some reason and made me look more closely at it.
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 09, 2012, 08:53:38 PM
Last question I promise :) did Strathearn make 'hollow' canes?  despite my earlier comment that they have striped going across them, having looked more closely even, the orange outer canes have a bluey/purply striped 'lining' to the orange outers but the inside is either clear glass or completely hollow, I guess clear glass.
thanks for your patience
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: Derek on October 09, 2012, 09:19:39 PM
Hi M

You are correct its clear glass.

Making hollow tubing is a VERY time consuming and difficult process and therefore
costly. Given the rate that Strathearn churned out their PW's and the price they
got for them, hollow canes would not have been on the agend.

To give you some idea of the output of Strathearn millefiori paperweights there
were 6 girls doing nothing but setting up the paperweights and each glassmaker
was expected to make 100 PWs every shift.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: tropdevin on October 09, 2012, 09:21:19 PM
***
Hi

I once had around 450 Strathearn paperweights - spokes and closepacks. I saw just about every possible combination of colours and clear glass and shapes and layers in the canes in them , so I would not rule out anything!

Alan
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 09, 2012, 09:29:28 PM
 Derek thank you for your information - I find all those details really interesting - and just wow!  On an 8 hour shift that's 12  per hour ish, 5minutes per paperweight or less ...really??  :o amazing.

Alan, do you mean it could be hollow?  it does look hollow (but then the yellow ones look like a whorls on the inside  to me lol)- I'm trying to get the best angle to see if I can find any reflection of the top of the cane but so far it still looks hollow.
m
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: tropdevin on October 10, 2012, 06:45:11 AM
***

I doubt very much it would be hollow: that would mean it would be filled with air at pickup, and you would get large bubbles over the cane on encasement. And it would look silvery now if full of air.  Even the tiny air channels that are sometimes left between canes cause bubbles - hence the seemingly regular array of tiny bubbles on the cushion of some weights.

Alan
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: Derek on October 10, 2012, 07:24:50 PM
Hi M

Yes it sounds amazing, a weight every 5 minutes, but its true. Dave Moir told me and he was at Ysart Brothers then Vasart and
finally Strathearn from the day it opened until the day they stopped making the Strathearn brand there in 1980. 

Dave has also confirmed that they definitely did NOT use hollow canes !

Factory production of paperweights produces some amazing figures - at its peak in the mid 1990's Caithness was producing
150,000 paperweights a year from 18 chairs! Even the much smaller operation at Selkirk Glass was making 25,000 a year at its peak.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: Is this Vasart or Strathearn ? 13 spoke, dark blue dome ,ground base
Post by: flying free on October 10, 2012, 09:22:22 PM
Thanks :) I love all this detail and information and am grateful you take the time to impart it, it adds another dimension of interest for me.
m