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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: neilh on January 21, 2012, 10:21:17 AM

Title: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
Post by: neilh on January 21, 2012, 10:21:17 AM
Molineaux Webb did 4 main pressed frosted sets which they registered in the 1860s, starting with the Greek Key pattern of 1864, and followed with the patterns of raised dots, whole frosted, and frosted bands. These must have been made in some quantity as they are the most likely ones to show up at auction today.

In the pressed catalogue I could see that there was definitely one, and potentially a couple of other patterns, which were very likely frosted but predated these. The one I was certain of was fern pattern 427, which I think dates to 1862 plus or minus one year. It is used on a creamer, a sugar bowl and a finger bowl. I have been looking for one of these to turn up for a couple of years - they must be pretty rare - and this week I found an example of the creamer.

Imagine my surprise then when I examined it and found the word "PATENT" on the creamer. I have not seen such a word on any piece, but as I was already anticipating this fern pattern as the first example of pressed frosted Molineaux Webb, it is somewhat intriguing.

The company issued two patents in the relevant timeframe. Alas I only have the abstracts and would need to go to a research library to find the full story, but they are:
August 1861 - improvements in the manufacture of articles of glass
December 1862 - improvements in the manufacture of articles of pressed glass

This also got me thinking as to when the first pressed frosted items were produced. I know that with the Manchester factories, there was a sudden rush to register frosted pieces in 1864/5 by Molineaux Webb, Percival Vickers, and the Derbyshire brothers. My knowledge is sketchy of factories in other areas but I'm not aware of any frosted pieces being registered prior to 1864.

So my contention is that this fern piece could be the first pressed frosted design issued by a British glassworks, or perhaps the first one to be made under whatever patent Molineaux Webb held from the early 1860s.

Any thoughts? Anyone seen glass with PATENT on it which didn't relate to the standard design registration system?
Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
Post by: Sid on January 22, 2012, 01:12:46 AM
Neil

Very cool (from a fellow in frosty Canada)! I have seen several pieces of British glass with "patent" marked on them and am certain that it is unrelated to a design registration in the UK.  It is a different story in the USA where there are both design patents and utility (new or improved article or maching or process ...) patents.   Maybe somebody on this board will have the Patents for Inventions Abridgements of Specifications Class 56 Glass for the period 1855 to 1866 and can scan a couple pages for you (and us) with the two 1861 patents.  I only have them from 1901 to 1930 so no help from me on that front.  

How long did a patent provide protection for in the UK in 1861?  The rush of design registrations in 1864/5 could indicate that the patent was expiring and other companies were now able to make frosted glass.  In the US it was possible to get patent terms that varied from 3 years to I think 14 years.  There was a larger fee involved for the longer term.

The frosted area looks like it is mechanically abraded instead of acid frosted.  Is that correct?

Sid

Added:  Another possibility for the registrations by other companies is that they found a method of frosting glass that was not protected by the patent.
Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
Post by: Bernard C on January 22, 2012, 07:59:44 AM
...   Anyone seen glass with PATENT on it which didn't relate to the standard design registration system?

Neil — Yes.   Two of the Sowerby patents, #2433 of 15 September 1871, and, possibly, #4505 of 15 October 1881.   This second patent in my working copy of Cottle has an old pencilled note added: "Re 'PATENT' on sugar bowl pattern No. 1616 Rd. October 19 1881??"   The 1616 sugar bowl is the one with vertically ribbed rounded corners where the naturalistic decoration on the sides was picked out in fired-on enamel.   I can assure you that my pencilled note made sense when I wrote it many years ago, but I can't figure it out now as it doesn't seem to tie in.   Perhaps Hajdamach I explains it (mine has gone temporarily walk about).   I think Roy has had one of these through his hands — any ideas Roy?

Other examples of British glass carrying the moulded word PATENT:
  • At least one of the Hayward pavement lights, see here (http://glassian.org/Prism/Hayward/product_pics.html),
  • Bottles — many of the bottle patents relate to innovative closures,
  • Davidson's #3 and #5 "dome" flower blocks, see here (http://www.cloudglass.com/Frogs.htm),
  • Lillicrap's Hone.

  • I'm sure there are more.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: neilh on January 22, 2012, 08:48:49 AM
    Thanks Bernard. Interesting info from the Davidson website

    "The applicant then had 10 months to submit a complete specification... The Patent Office only keeps copies of complete specifications, not of the original application. Thus if an application was abandoned, then only the title of the application remains."

    So some of the various Molineaux Webb patents may have been applied for but not granted. If their patent of 1861 or 1862 was not granted, this might explain why none of their other frosted items bear the word PATENT. Maybe only the frosted fern has it when the patent was still going through the application process. That would make sense as the dates tie up, but I would have to do additional research to prove it.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Bernard C on January 22, 2012, 09:07:38 AM
    Neil - See The National Archives of the UK research guide: Inventions: patents and specifications (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/inventions-patents-specifications.htm).   I noticed this while browsing around The National Archives website in relation to Paul Stirling's topic here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45299.0.html).   I hope it helps a little.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: neilh on January 22, 2012, 10:35:34 AM
    Ok I have done a little more digging and it seems Thomas George Webb made 4 patent petitions during this period rather than 2

    7th August 1861 -  improvements in the manufacture of articles of glass
    1st August 1862 - improvements in the manufacture of flint glass
    4th December 1862 - improvements in the manufacture of articles of pressed glass
    6th March 1863 - improvements in the manufacture of articles of pressed glass

    All were given "like notice" within a matter of six months. As far as I can tell, this means they were granted, but I'm not 100% sure on that point. I can see I'm going to have to visit the British Library and see what these patents were for...
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Bernard C on January 22, 2012, 12:15:42 PM
    Neil — Can you check that they have these documents before going, to save a wasted journey?   Also you may be able to order these documents in advance, so they're ready for you when you arrive.

    Also, if you are permitted to take photographs of documents for posting on the GMB, would you please find out exactly how images should be watermarked, including capitalisation and punctuation.   As you will appreciate, we have to be ultra careful to get it absolutely correct, otherwise we are likely to make it difficult for future researchers.

    The agreed National Archives watermark for items over 50–51* years old is:-
  • © 2012 John Smith, courtesy of The National Archives of the UK

  • Theirs might be any one of:-
  • © 2012 John Smith, courtesy of The British Library Board
  • © 2012 John Smith, courtesy of The British Library
  • Something different.

  • Bernard C.  8)

    * — we still don't know whether it is 50 years on a daily basis or 50 years on an annual basis, with a whole year's worth coming out of Crown Copyright on the 1st January or some other date each year.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 29, 2012, 01:02:08 PM
    While having a look through some of my pressed glass I found this Davidson dish which does have the RD 96945 registration number also has the word PATENT on it.

    Bernard I am sorry not sure which piece you are describing although I most likely do have a picture somewhere if I had one.

    Roy
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: neilh on March 18, 2012, 03:30:55 PM
    You wait ages... then three come along at once.
    Bagged an example of the sugar bowl from this set (minus the lid), which was sold with another example of the creamer. The sugar bowl does not have the word PATENT on it, but both creamers do.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Paul S. on March 19, 2012, 08:32:31 PM
    well done  -  nice pieces Neil, it's an attractive design, helped no doubt by the frosting and the 'pump' style handles.       Regret to say I haven't made any progress with my Sowerby PATENT sugar bowl, yet.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: mhgcgolfclub on April 15, 2014, 04:52:55 PM
    I think this is the sugar bowl Bernard was describing pattern number 1616, both pieces have the word PATENT, the creamer also has the Sowerby trade mark while the sugar bowl also has a faint date lozenge. The only part I can read is the day 19

    Roy
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Paul S. on April 15, 2014, 06:43:36 PM
    another piece we've discussed before - a Sowerby sugar with just the word Patent. 
    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46153.msg258828.html#msg258828  -  and is possibly one of those that Bernard has mentioned in this thread.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: agincourt17 on April 18, 2014, 09:37:18 AM
    Roy’s sugar and creamer look like Sowerby enamelled Blanc de Lait (though Cottle seems to describe the technique as ‘stained’ rather than enamelled – perhaps some pieces were stained and some enamelled?).

    Most of the of shapes that I have seen in stained  or enamelled Blanc de Lait are shown in Sowerby’s pattern book IX (1882), but Roy’s sugar and creamer are giving me some problems at the moment.

    The nearest pattern shape I can find is indeed Sowerby pattern 1616 (shown on page 12 of Pattern Book IX, 1882) – except that the floral patterns on the panels of Roy’s pieces are different to those shown on pattern 1616, and the handle on the creamer in the pattern book has ‘bobbles’ whereas Roy’s is plain.

    Simon Cottle has a colour photo of creamer 1616 on page 54 of his book “Sowerby – Gateshead Glass” which is definitely in accord with the Sowerby pattern book drawing and shows the ‘bobbly’ handle and that the stained floral decoration has ten ‘daisy heads’ per panel compared to the five on Roy’s creamer and sugar.

    Hajdamach (‘British Glass 1800-1914’) shows a sugar basin on page 352 (colour plate 43) with the description “Sugar basin in white vitro-porcelain enamelled with flowers, Sowerby, marked with the peacock’s head crest and the registration diamond for 19 October 1881, and the word PATENT, height 3 5/8 inches (9.2cm)”. It has floral panels with 10 ‘daisy heads’, just like Cottle’s 1616 creamer and the 1616 sugar in the Sowerby pattern book

    The only problem with Hajdamach’s description is that there doesn’t seem to be a Sowerby design registration on 19 October 1881, though there is a Sowerby design registration (RD 365165) for 19 MAY 1881 – Parcel 9, described by Cottle and Thompson as ‘sugar’). It may be that Hajdamach has misread an indistinct month letter on the registration diamond – May = E and October = B, not dissimilar basic letter shapes. 1881 would seem a likely year for pattern numbers somewhere in the 1600s (e.g. 1616), as pattern 1568 accords with an RD 362734 on 1 March 1881, and  pattern number 1672 accords with RD 374774 on 15 December 1881. 

    The other Sowerby pattern that has a sugar and creamer with floral decoration vaguely similar to Roy’s set is pattern 1446 (and that comes in plain variants and stained Blanc de Lait versions) but the actual shape of the 1446 sugar and creamer are quite different .

    I will endeavour to trawl through the Sowerby pattern books and other standard Sowerby reference books over the next few days, but there seems to be a disparity between Sowerby pattern 1616 and Roy’s pieces - similar shape (and quite likely the same registration diamond) but different floral pattern on the panels (and, of course a ‘bobbly’ handle to the creamer instead of the plain handle of Roy’s creamer). Maybe Roy’s sugar and creamer are previously-undocumented RD 365175 / pattern 1616 variants.

    Still not sure how any of this ties in with a Sowerby Patent though.

    If Paul S. happens by this post, I wonder if he has the registration representation of RD 365175 (19 May 1881 – Parcel 9) to hand for comparison, please?

    Fred.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Paul S. on April 18, 2014, 11:03:04 AM
    Fred  -  I have a National Archive pic of Sowerby Rd. 365165 - which is what I assume you meant to say in your last paragraph - and will watermark this and post after lunch, together with Sowerby Rd. 350084 dated 24th May 1880.          I think that 350084 might also be of interest as it's possible it's another shape that is related to these enameled/stained items that Roy has introduced.

    However.................  this thread might be in danger of getting a bit overloaded now that we've branched out and started to discuss these enameled/stained pieces produced by Sowerby, so I had it in mind to start a new thread for the latter as I feel there is some mileage yet to go, and didn't want to confuse the issue.
    There is an important piece of confusion relating to these white pieces which I wanted to air and a new thread is perhaps the best way forward  -  but I'm open to suggestions.

    What do people think  -  let me know, and if you're happy for me to simply continue 'in situ' then I'll just bash on. :) 
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: agincourt17 on April 18, 2014, 12:49:25 PM
    Thank you, Paul.

    I look forward to seeing the National Archive pics for RD 365165 and RD 350084.

    I don’t have any pics at all for RD 350084 described by Cottle and Thompson as a sugar [basin],  though I do have some pics for many of the other RD numbers in the RD 350083 to 350093 bundle - all with pattern numbers in the 1470s and 1480s.

    I agree that this thread is becoming overloaded and in danger of diverting significantly from the original topic title, so I have no problem with a new thread re. the Sowerby stained or enamelled  pieces (though referencing links between topic threads would be useful).

    Fred.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Paul S. on April 18, 2014, 04:37:36 PM
    I might be slowly losing the plot on this one ;D, but here are the pix I mentioned.
    You've already mentioned problems with these Sowerby pieces which is that having recorded an original Registration for a certain basic body shape -  the factory then seem to have created minor variations to such parts like handles, for example.
    Your reference to the plain handle on Roy's creamer compared to the bobbin shaped handle in Cottle - page 54  -  both styles of handle on what is presumably the same body shape.

    Anyway here are pix for 365165 and 350084............    the reason I've included the latter is that I think it's the vitro-porcelain two handled bowl showing in Cottle at the top of page 54 - let me know if you agree or not.
    Whether the similar shaped bowl adjacent to it comes under the same Registration (it appears to be more or less the same shape) I don't know.

    It would be a big undertaking but you might perhaps try and list all of these enameled painted white vitro-porcelain designs at some point, and I'll try to fill in the Rd. Nos. if I can.


     

     
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: agincourt17 on April 18, 2014, 08:51:15 PM
    Thank you very much for the pics, Paul.

    So now there is confirmation that Sowerby RD 365165 of 19 May 1881 – Parcel 9 corresponds to Sowerby pattern 1616 as illustrated on page 12 of their pattern book IX (1882).

    It also seems that Hajdamach must have misread or mistranslated the registration diamond for the caption referring to the pattern 1616 sugar shown in plate 43 of his book.

    I think it’s quite likely that there were minor variants on a design, all with the same registration diamond, where the design was basically just for the shape, just as there are different shapes in a suite of pieces where the registered design was for the decoration.

    As for RD 350084 of 24 May 1880 – Parcel 8, I would agree entirely that the shape is the same as the stained or enamelled sugar basin shown at the top of the colour plate on page 54 of Cottle’s Sowerby book. This sugar basin corresponds to Sowerby pattern 1482 (which is shown with the same floral decoration on page of their pattern book IX (1882), alongside a matching creamer with the same pattern number). So, another gap filled in the RD and pattern number correlation lists.

    Although the smaller bowl shown to the right of the RD 350084 / pattern 1472 sugar on page 54 of Cottle has a quite similar shape, it actually seems to be Sowerby pattern 1568 (shown on page 11 of their pattern book IX, 1882) to which Cottle attributes RD 362734 of 11 March 1881 – Parcel 2 (and which Cottle and Thompson describe as a ‘sugar [basin]’).

    Just for completeness, the stained / enamelled rectangular section posy / spill vase (with chequered top and stylised flowers raised in relief over horizontal ribbing on each side ) shown at the bottom of the quartet of pieces on page 54 of Cottle’s book  is Sowerby pattern  1239, correlating with RD 314268 of  18 September 1877 – Parcel 7 (and shown on page 4 of pattern book IX (1882).

    Fred.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Paul S. on April 18, 2014, 08:55:33 PM
    great work Fred - keep taking the asprin ;)
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Keencollector on April 22, 2014, 03:39:45 AM
    Here is the primrose version of Roy's "Richelieu" three part dish.  It also has Rd 96945 and PATENT on bowl.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Keencollector on April 22, 2014, 03:52:29 AM
    Another example of PATENT appearing on pearline pressed glass items.  The stand is marked NEVILLE PATENT.  A three piece version of this cruet does appear in a Davidson publication so must be one of the moulds purchased by Davidson after S. Neville glass closed.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: agincourt17 on April 22, 2014, 04:16:51 PM
    Thank you showing us this rare Neville opalescent blue piece, Margaret.

    I know of no other reference photos (either online or in books) of this particular design, or indeed of any other pieces with the Neville mark. Does anyone have other Neville pieces to show, please? Is there an extant Neville catalogue of any description?

    As you say, the Davidson catalogue of unregistered designs 1880-1900 shows a triple holder frame and cruets set presumably derived directly from the Neville design, and there is also a triple holder frame and cups set to match. No Davidson pattern numbers shown with either set.

    Fred.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: neilh on January 21, 2017, 07:13:43 PM
    So if you remember the conversation we started, spookily 5 years to the day, I have finally been to the patent office today to see which one matches my Molineaux Webb frosted creamer. It is the one dated March 6th 1863 (number 642) and granted to Thomas George Webb on September 4th 1863. I had thought it might be to do with frosting techniques, but it turns out to be how the handle is applied to a cup. In truth I should have guessed as the handle on this piece is a little different, in that the glass "fills in" the space between the handle and the cup, so there is no hole in the handle.

    Here is the relevant part of the text:

    "My invention relates to those articles of pressed glass which are provided with handles, such as "custard cups" and a variety of others, and consists in forming such handles, and which are usually hollow, with a midfeather, uniting the outward part of the handle to the body of the article. By this means I am enabled to secure greater strength and to avoid the roughness which exists in such handles made after the ordinary manner and without losing the appearance of lightness existing in hollow handles".

    I have looked through all the Molineaux Webb patents I can find, there are around 20 of them in the 1860-1880 period, though there could be more, difficult to tell as there is no easy way to search. They are mostly involved with improvements in production methods, such as furnaces, chemical mixes, lessening breakages, and minimizing imperfections. I will type them all up on my website when I get the chance. These documents are out of copyright and at some point should arrive on Espacenet (patents from the late 19th century onwards are already available there).

    To clear up one point from the thread above, the patent lists do show applications that did not make it to a full patent. Firstly, the patent is lodged as a "Provisional Specification", and after a period it may progress to a "Specification" if granted.
    Title: Re: Molineaux Webb - PATENTED pressed frosted creamer
    Post by: Lustrousstone on January 21, 2017, 07:22:03 PM
    And here's your handle http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=2525
    http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=2529
    http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=2528
    http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=2526
    http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=2527