Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Frank on January 20, 2006, 06:34:31 PM
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Lovely piece of kingsize lampwork but...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7383034798
Is there a category for this?
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It's paperweight lampwork! Where else would you put it but in the paperweight category? It's where I'd expect to find it! :shock: :roll: :wink:
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I'd be tempted if it had started a bit lower.
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it's abit on the steep side
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Nice piece of lampwork ... and yes, as it is a typical element included in paperweights, then I agree with Leni.
If it had been a "sculptural lampwork" item, such as the 3D pieces set on onyx base that Duncan Smith produced after the closure of Perthshire Paperweights, then some folk may have said it was more suited to the general Glass catgegory. But paperweights purists would probabely insist that it would be a "paperweight-related object". Which is what the lampwork flower is.
But is there actual evidence that this lampowrk flower was made by John Deacons himself? It may be so, but the eBay listing does not seem to offer confirmation. John has had many assitants over the years and in many of his weights the lampwork has been made by other people. Currently, John's lampworkers include Rosie Fleming, Duncan Smith and Willie Manson.
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Hi Kev
I thought seeing similar lampwork flowers in recent JD paperweights might help us assess the lampwork flower on eBay said to be by him, it may also help you with the identifying one of the assistants you talk about. These paperweights are 2002 onwards.
All these are a selection from my own collection
Paperweight 1
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/7990/jd12ag.th.jpg) (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jd12ag.jpg)
Paperweight 2
(http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/5880/jd21al.th.jpg) (http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jd21al.jpg)
Paperweight 3
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9093/jd32ze.th.jpg) (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jd32ze.jpg)
Paperweight 4
(http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/9897/jd42eu.th.jpg) (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jd42eu.jpg)
Paperweight 5
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6092/jd55pe.th.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jd55pe.jpg)
Paperweight 6
(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/9976/jd69zs.th.jpg) (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jd69zs.jpg)
The 'King-size' description is a bit weird as it scans with the size of the lampwork in my weights?
I also don't believe it is as old as they are saying - I think it’s pretty new.
I see similarities but as Frank states not enough to pay that price; these weights can be bought for under £50.00 on eBay. I sold about twenty last year and got only £35 for some real crackers. If I was going to buy I would want a ID cane to go with it.
Adam P
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i have some lampwork by Rosie Fleming, this is the best one below
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/6cddb9da.jpg)
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That is a superb piece of lampwork Ray - much better than the one being sold on eBay IMHO
What it shares in common with the eBay one and the flowers in my weights is the centre made up from tiny beads of glass. That is such a JD thing (was this standard practice with all lampwork flowers regardless of the designer, it's like a JD signature)
I am more assured that the eBay flower is J Deacons - except note the flower petals on Ray's piece and in my weights - then look at the eBay items petals
Adam P
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Thanks Adam, but it doesn't really help, unless we already know what features can identify a particular lampworker. In most cases the lampworkers are never identified.
All most folk (myself included) can say, is that those weights, having a JD signature cane, were made by John Deacons but the lampork ... not easy to tell. There may be folk who can recognise the elements, but I am not one of them!
However, it's interesting to note the different forms of workmanship across the weights, both in the lampwork and the setting in the weight. My own view is:
1 has good work and setting
2 is quite poor, with parts not connecting as they should and even the sig cane is at an angle
3 is ok but again the sig cane loses out
4 this is best of all, in all respects
5 hmm ... what's that central flower doing ... wilting? And the red "leaves" of the pink flower don't seem too well balanced
6 this is ok but lacks something I can't quite identify
My comments are based on my perceived quality of the finished article and my personal tastes. Even the poorer examples take skill to produce.
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hi Adam
John usually only make's the weight's but sometimes lampwork as far as i'm aware,
like Kev said is it by John?, lampwork can look the same as in the 2 weights below, the one on the right is by J glass 1980, lampwork by Allan Scott the one on the left is Phoenix paperweights 2002, lampwork by Rosie Fleming
i will try and catch Allan Scott so he can say his 2p's worth, if anybody know's lampwork he does
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/2c5e6be3.jpg)(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/a251e54e.jpg)
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these weights can be bought for under £50.00 on eBay. I sold about twenty last year and got only £35 for some real crackers.
:shock: :shock: :shock: Adam! Please, please, pretty pretty please! If you ever get any more to sell, can I have first dibs on them? :D :D :D
£50 each? :? Why do I never see them? :x :roll:
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Why do <i>I</i> never see them? :x :roll:
Leni your brackets are wrong to make the I an italic one. The angle brackets < and > are html code, the board uses BB code so to get italic letters you need to use square brackets [ and ] instead... 8)
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Why do I never see them? :x :roll:
Leni your brackets are wrong to make the I an italic one.
Anne, I'm puzzled. As far as I can see on my screen my <> brackets work - the text comes out italicised! :?
I know I do get confused about whether I am posting on the message board or on my d-i-l's blog and which brackets to use, but I have used <> italics here and it seemed to work, and [] italics here and it also worked! :shock:
You are obviously not seeing what I'm seeing! :?
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Very true Leni - i'm not seeing what you're seeing. :? When you use the < > brackets I see them and the letters in between them. When you use the [ ] brackets I see only the effect on the letters, so your I becomes I.
I wonder if the Disable HTML in this post box below the message creation window is a factor here and why? Mine is ticked, whereas the Disable BB code one isn't. I shall have a play and see what happens (I never use html in messages on boards as bb code works just fine).
OK so as an experiment I've unticked the Disable HTML box and used the < > and html tags around this next sentence - let's see what it looks like.
This sentence is italicised with html tags in angle-brackets.
Yup, in Preview I now see the above sentence in italics - but that setting should not explain why I should not see your post in italics as my posting setting should not affect how your messages look to me! :shock:
Edited after posting to add that although in Preview the sentence was in italics, when I post the message and then read it it is shown in < angle brackets > again. This is crazy, I shall put my tech hat on and see if I can figure out why it's being so contrary!!!
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Hi
Thanks Kev - I thought someone might recognise the lampwork, but I can see what you mean. In this sense it hasn't helped with the eBay lampwork except to show the obvious that they are by JD - although I still feel the petals are different on the eBay one compared to my weights and Ray's. I picked up fifty odd JD weights (sold some) and can see what you mean. I didn't pay too much and I agree with what you say, I was never impressed with the settings. I mean look at Ray's J glass 1980 next to the Phoenix paperweight - what a difference!
Thanks for showing this weight Ray – its soooooo perfect
Standards seem to have slowly lowered from the 1980s on for general retail weights. I have handled some commissioned / special pieces that are from same period and the setter / lampworker has been more careful
A good example is this weight from 1995 - 8 years earlier than the others I posted - it's a retail weight but the quality is so different – is there evidence that JD standards slowly slipped?
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9484/jdbutt2xe.th.jpg) (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jdbutt2xe.jpg)
Maybe I am wrong and my 2002 onwards weights are rejects :shock: :shock:
LOL Adam P LOL
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When examining weights which cover many years of work, there will very likely be differences in quality from any maker (except, perhaps, for such as Perthshire Paperweights, where very strict, almost perfectionist, rules of the main lady scrutineer were applied).
My understanding is that when JD was producing the J Glass weights, special care was applied to each weight to ensure that it would compete in what proved to be a very tough market for the best quality items. I think today's thinking is more about making a living than trying to be the best all the time.
I don't find it surprising that current weights show a range of quality, particulary those produced at the cheaper end of the market.
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Ray, just out of interest ...
... can you please take a close look at the leaves on Rosie's lampwork flower and check the edges and underside, too. Do the stripes seem to be separate applications? Are there stripes on the underside?
In most lampwork I have seen, the stripes in the leaves or petals (and even in stems) seems to be the result of flattening out a regular length of "cog" cane, often with 6 or 8 rinbs, and the stripes showing where the ribs were set. But in that example of Rosie's it seems different - as if three lengths of yellow have been set on the upper side of a flattened strecth of green and then the whole leaf shaped to a point.
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yes Kev the yellow stripes are a separate application
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Hello :-)
What a nice discussion about my lampwork item :lol:
Here are some more pictures of the items I have, they are all from John Deacons, made in December last year:
(http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lwsmall/small1.jpg)
(http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lwsmall/small2.jpg)
(http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lwsmall/small3.jpg)
(http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lwsmall/small4.jpg)
(http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lwsmall/small5.jpg)
(http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lwsmall/small6.jpg)
(http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lwsmall/small7.jpg)
To see a bigger picture, please click the this Link:
http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/lw/
If you think, my ebay price was to high - just make me an offer :wink:
Have a nice sunday!
Best wishes
Nadine
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Lovely, Nadine! :shock: Lucky you! :D
I have no idea what such lampwork as your John Deacon example would be 'worth', so I have no idea if your ebay price was too high or not, but I wouldn't have thought it had come on the market often before now, so it's a bit of an unknown area!
I have some lovely Allan Scott lampwork, but I wouldn't ever sell it as it was a present :D
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First of all I just want to say what a good message board this is compared to others.The threads are almost always interesting and full of discussion unlike the others which quickly seem to become a place only used to request valuations.
Anyway I thought I would add a couple of comments to this one for obvious reasons. Kev is spot on with his understanding of the original Jay Glass weights. John and I took great pride and care in our work and we would not let anything go out that we did not think were good enough,(some did find their way out by the backdoor themselves though,it was a cowshed we worked in after all :D ). Unfortunately I also have to agree with the idea that the need to stay in business these days definitely affects what everyone in the glass trade makes,at Caithness we know that only too well. On the bright side though, they have allowed the lampwork designs to be put back down to only editions of 50 weights for this year. This has allowed us to put more time and work into the paperweights. We also have been doing "one-offs" for our various events and our forthcoming collectors convention which totally takes the pressure of time off us so we can just make what we want without worrying about streamlining designs for reproduction. This means that prices rise(thanks to gas increases as well) but we have decided we would rather make quality pieces than churn out any old rubbish to survive. Not everyone will like everything that we or anyone else makes but that is why we have good discussions on this message board.
Anyway back to the thread, I am surprised at Adams JD weights; I cannot believe that they are actually John's, they have the look of weights made up of left-over flowers almost like someone had used what was lying around to let somebody practise making a lampwork weight. It is certainly not like john to let designs like that out. I would be interested to find out from John himself if he recognises the work, am even surprised at the cane (although I am by no means "up" on all his cane designs), the difference between the J and D is quite extreme which is not like him at all. Kev will be able to tell better than I can though.
The lampwork flowers of Nadines I think are all done by Duncan Smith; the style of joining the petals is more recent Perthshire than the style that Rosette learned from me when she trained at Caithness and Willie Manson's lampwork leans, naturally, more towards Ysart.
As ever though I am prepared to be wrong, so I will finish off this longer than intended post and go read somebody elses :D
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Hi Allan
Not all the weights posted have/had the same JD cane - I used a pic of the first and pasted it into the rest as I was intending to sell on eBay, I just wanted to show they had a JD cane, in fact about three of the ones posted did sell on eBay and at low par prices perhaps reflecting the quality of the work.
There are also some red and blue JD canes and although not included in the pictures most of the weights had the paper label with the thistle on it.
What do you think of my 1995 butterfly weight (JHD cane)?
I am avid collector of John’s and indeed your own work as well as other Scottish makers – interesting to hear you were making the weights in a shed !!
It is interesting what you say about the quality of my 2002 weights, I would be interested to know what John says as well - they are from my regular dealer/friend - I believe in telling him about items he has sold me that are suspicious. I mean if I got a low price because they were perhaps fakes, I would seek redress (without mentioning anything or anyone on this board of course)
BTW Allan, do you recognise any of these weights with paper label (no ID cane) all c 2002
(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/4122/purple1di.th.jpg) (http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=purple1di.jpg)
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6144/sponge2oy.th.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sponge2oy.jpg)
(http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4408/urchin6nz.th.jpg) (http://img57.imageshack.us/my.php?image=urchin6nz.jpg)
BTW Nadine, your JD lampwork pieces are beautiful
Thanks
Adam
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A further comment on individual lampwork pieces. A couple of years ago, my wife and I attended one of Willie Manson's courses (which for a collector give a wonderful insight into how to do lampwork and create weights). I was all thumbs but the mrs had a knack for it and came away with a lamp, tools and glass rods so she could practice at home - which she did for a while (until pregnancy got in the way). Consequently we have numerous lampwork flowers etc - not quite to the standard of the better ones shown above, but not far off. The moral of this is - Who knows how many others have the equipment and the skill to turn out decent lampwork (particularly flowers) which by its nature is not identifiable to an individual. Having said that - the ebay item is very nice and very accomplished.
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I have only just realised that a John Deacons weight, which Peggy and Steve of 'Paperweights Plus' show, has a sunflower identical to Nadine's lampwork, set over a lace background. They say the lampwork was made by Willie Manson!
It's in the middle of this page:
http://www.paperweightsplus.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/pwp?opendocument&part=7
You will also see on the same page a toucan weight in which the lampwork was done by Duncan Smith. The toucan is almost certainly by the same hand as the one Nadine shows in her pictures above! :shock:
So I think it's fairly certain that her pieces are all 'John Deacon' pieces, in that they were all made to be included in 'John Deacon' weights, although not all the lampwork was made by John's hand. :D
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Hi Adam,
Sorry I do not recognise any of the weights you posted,I will ask John about them when I next see him.I like the butterfly weight,John always liked to do multi-coloured signature canes.I was going to post some images of the first designs John and I sent to America all those years ago but they took so long my dial-up keeps disconnecting( I really have to get broadband :lol: ).Maybe Ray,if he reads this, will post them as I sent them to him the other night.They are images of the brochure that Larry Selman printed for them.
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here you go
click on thumbnail
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/th_b8136153.jpg) (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/b8136153.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/th_e4ec30e8.jpg) (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/e4ec30e8.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/th_11ab6b1b.jpg) (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/11ab6b1b.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/th_9dc98686.jpg) (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/yorkshirebob/9dc98686.jpg)
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:D Thank you, Ray! :D
And Allan! Thank you very much for the background information, too :D We are so lucky to have such knowledgeable people posting on the board! :shock: :D
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Thanks Allan
Also thanks for the J glass brochure that Ray has posted - these are just knock out quality - I have a few like them I collected years ago, but they rarely come up for auction on eBay and command high prices on certain websites.
Oh - I also wanted to show you this weight, I love it but was it an 'end of day' piece or a stock item - I see it as a very well executed scramble with a silhouette cane, a thistle cane, JD 2001 cane (letters in red and blue), and a cane with the name SHEILO (in different coloured letters) - also notice the posher paper label with thistle and 'by John Deacons'
(http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/6711/jdsheilo8ol.th.jpg) (http://img465.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jdsheilo8ol.jpg)
Sorry for all the questions, that is the last weight I will post on this thread
Adam P
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Adam any idea who or what SHEILO means?
Sorry for all the questions, that is the last weight I will post on this
why? if youve more post them, thats what this forums for
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Adam's weight with a mix of cane slices, including silhouettes, and lengths of cane was, and perhaps still is, a regular design.
Name canes were introduced in the late 1990s and were produced on request for such as anniversary gifts (info from John Simmonds' book, Paperweights of Great Britain 1930-2000). Again, perhaps John still makes these. I don't know for sure, but name canes might be found in a variety of weights although I suspect they are all of a fairly simple design.
In the example shown, perhaps "Shielo" is a real variation on "Sheila" or maybe it was an "o" pciked up instead of an "a"?
Regarding the variable quality mentioned earlier of the "JD" signature canes, the "J" and the "D" often appear as "thick and thin" in these canes. The blue-coated JD is a much-used cane. I assume that different pullings of the letters, and perhaps the whole cane, have resulted in variable sizes and thickness of the letters. This is also true of some examples of name canes which are composites using separate letters. It is also true, for example, in the JD 2001 signature cane seen in Adam's latest image above ... the "D" is larger and thinner than the "J" and the "2" is the largest of all characters.
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Hi Adam,
I asked Harry McKay about the abstract weights you posted and he confirmed that John makes these kind of weights.He told me they used to make them originally at the Strathearn works,(a bit before my time, :D ,just).They used to call them "sea urchins"apparently.
P.s. Thanks Ray, for helping out with the brochure images.
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Hello everybody,
it seems, Leni is righ with her opinion, that my lampwork pieces are from John Deacons studio, but not all made by his hands.
I will ask my friend who gave them to me as a present.
The Butterlfy and the Dragonfly should be made by John himself and I won´t sell them. They are smaller and more detailed.
The old brochure is fantastic, I love the "J" Paperweight very much,
here are some pictures of my favourite "J" Paperweight, which you can also see in the brochure:
http://www.paperweights24.de/bilder/jbutterfly/index.html
Best wishes
Nadine
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Thanks Allan
Great bit of information about my abstract weights, 'Sea Urchins' I have never been able to truly confirm these are J Deacons. I see them in a whole different light now and can see why they were given this name, I would love to take a picture of them in a seaside rock pool, I bet they would look amazing!
Adam P
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Just to confirm that the lampwork piece was made by William Manson (senior) last year (2005) For John Deacons. I hope you find this of help!!
Craig Deacons
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Thank you Craig! :D Welcome to the board! :D Hope we will be seeing you around here again.
Gosh, I love this board! The people you meet here! :roll: :wink:
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Actual Marion Langham has a JD weight on ebay, with the butterflies I have:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7385249698&fromMakeTrack=true
Did anyone has an idea who made this beautiful small pieces ?
Best wishes
Nadine
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Wow, that is quite superb!