Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: Paul S. on November 04, 2010, 10:30:49 PM

Title: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 04, 2010, 10:30:49 PM: The 'Blue Book' Nos. stop in 1945 - and I believe this one is sometime after 1950. The point of the post, however, was to comment on the unusual format of the number. We're accustomed to seeing the No. without a 'stop' in the middle, and as I hadn't seen anything in this style before it stood out as unusual. I don't know who was responsible for making this bowl as I haven't researched the very late Nos. I assume it is British - and I believe from the early 1950's onwards the same group of Nos. incorporated ceramics, metal and glass. Am I correct, as for a while I thought this might not have been a British piece. thanks for looking.
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 04, 2010, 10:33:25 PM: sorry, I had meant to give the No. in my post. It is........'863.407 RGD.'
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Anne on November 04, 2010, 11:52:08 PM: Paul, is it really 863? The first character looks like it could be an S, making it S63.407 RGD
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: David E on November 05, 2010, 09:18:21 AM: It does look like an '8' to me Anne.

Assuming 63407, then this is not listed on Great-Glass:

63267 F & C Osler 10-Dec-86
63474 Stevens & Williams 14-Dec-86

Data courtesy www.great-glass.co.uk

I agree that 863407 would be c.1945-on
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 05, 2010, 09:52:09 AM: Anne/David - thanks for your replies. The mould quality possibly a little poor at that part of the No. - but no doubt in my mind that it is an '8'. I had not previously seen the lettering - 'RGD' following the No. - neither had I seen a 'dot' in the middle of a No. before. One of two possibilities perhaps...............either the maker of this bowl had their own way of showing the registration details (and chose to be a little different) - or perhaps there was some edict around 1950 that required a change in the way details were shown (about the time that a single series of Nos. covered china/glass/metal). Can someone else confirm please that I am correct with this last comment.
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: David E on November 05, 2010, 11:38:27 AM: It could just be that the maker decided to put a dot there. There may not have been any regulated format and don't think there's anything much to look into variations of a theme. For example, I have seen RG No., Reg. No., Reg. Des., etc. and even just the number on its own. Some patterns may not even have the number included.
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 05, 2010, 12:24:02 PM: It might not even be English, seeing as lot of Continental European countries use a . in their thousands and a , for the decimal point.

What's the base rim finish like? In fact, I would say the style is not typically British, more a pseudo-cut European pattern.
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Anne on November 05, 2010, 01:28:05 PM: I was thinking the same Christine, it's not a format I've seen in British registrations before. Do we have any examples of overseas registrations?
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 05, 2010, 02:12:43 PM: thanks for your thoughts, and I will provide a pic. of the base this evening. :)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 05, 2010, 08:18:18 PM: here then is the base.........a radiating pressed star pattern - and the close up shows the mat grey wear on the corners. Certainly not a pre war type of flat ground rim. I think it would look even better filled with a sherry trifle, plus cream, plus broken walnuts. Any takers to do the honours - I'll provide the spoons :24:
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Anne on November 05, 2010, 10:38:38 PM: <looks around> No base Paul <checks behind sofa> nope no base here <searches under desk> nothing, nada, zilch! :-[
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 06, 2010, 08:10:42 PM: sorry for confusion :-[ - and to put matters right........pics. now attached. :) No pre war style of outer ground flat foot, as you can see, so it does seem to tick all the right boxes for being around 1950. When I get the time I will make a point of looking for the origin of this Reg. No.
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 06, 2010, 08:43:37 PM: It's not going to have a ground rim because it's made in a mould that doesn't have a foot rim of any sort. My point about ground and non-ground is only a pointer to be used with other clues.

Are you sure it's wear on the corners? Could it be grinding? The design certainly looks much older than 1950s.
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 06, 2010, 09:36:20 PM: I feel confident in saying that the corners are showing wear from use - rather than any form of grinding at the time of manufacture. I have also just realized that this bowl gives an unusually long 'ding' - longer than might be thought from a run of the mill pressed item. I will try in the coming days to run down an attribution for the Reg. No., and then perhaps we may continue this discussion. My thanks for your help, as always. :)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Bernard C on November 07, 2010, 10:54:56 AM: Quote from: Anne on November 05, 2010, 01:28:05 PM
... Do we have any examples of overseas registrations?

Anne - Yes, in the early '30s, on a final version rest-of-the-world (excluding US and possibly Canada) Lillicrap's Hone. In addition my first reaction to the central stop was that it is perfectly natural for a continental European mouldmaker to separate off his thousands that way - it makes the number easier to read.

Central area:
LILLICRAP'S HONE
MADE IN ENGLAND
PATENT NO. 346007
RGD. NO. 756950
FRANCE BREVET NO. 708000
D.R.G.M. 1148563
PATENTED THROUGHOUT
THE WORLD

Top rim:
AUSTRALIA PAT. No. 864/31

Bottom rim:
NEW ZEALAND PAT. No. 66000

Left rim (reading upwards):
S AFRICA PAT. No 140/31

Right rim (reading upwards):
INDIA PAT. No. 17558

Notes. I am fairly certain of my transcript and its accuracy, but would welcome any corrections or variants. I'm certain of my "NO"s and "No"s, save for the first which is rather borderline. All the stops that appear are full stops at the base.

The France and New Zealand numbers look like classes/categories, rather than actual allocated numbers. Later versions might exist with these changed to allocated numbers.

Please let me know of any variation at all, including differences in the full stop distribution.

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 10, 2010, 12:25:31 PM: just to say that I will pop into the National Archives at Kew on Saturday morning. I have run down which 'box file' I need to see (apparently you have to allow 40 minutes for them to find it) - and fingers crossed will come away with the answer. Will let you know how I get on. :) Just hope that it's British after all this. :)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on November 13, 2010, 05:45:55 PM: uhmmmm.....not entirely successful I regret to say, but conclusive in the main. Nightmare of a journey, and registration not for the feint hearted - however, acquired the readers ticket, and ordered up the box file showing the 'Representations' covering the Registration No. in question. And there indeed are photographs of the correct bowl - not a glass bowl, but a metal example, used presumably for the patent record and to acquire the Reg. No. But this is where it went wrong for me. In the 'Representations' boxes there are pictures only, no data (I hadn't realized this) - and these files showed photos/drawings/blueprints only, and as this time period has consecutive Nos. for a variety of materials, I found myself looking at pics. of shopping bags, fire guards, a sorbo rubber (wired) toy monkey, cardboard boxes, and new designs for an eight armed bungie cord thingy. I can say that the Reg. No. shown on my page is in a format without a 'dot' in the middle - and I can confirm that it is British and was registered first in 1950. Unfortunately, the wait time for each box file about 45 minutes, and my wife by this time was utterly fed up with waiting around, so I had to abandon calling up the 'Registrations Data' box for this period, and so came away without completing the quest i.e. the name of the commercial owner of this particular Registration No. I guess this is where is pays to be single, or have a like minded partner >:D
Anyway, probably won't get back for a week or two, but will nail it in the end - and appreciate the very generous help from the staff at the National Archives. :sun:
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Bernard C on November 14, 2010, 12:13:28 AM: Paul — My congratulations. Well done. :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:

Bernard C. 8)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on December 04, 2010, 04:42:07 PM: revisited Kew today - requested three boxes of data (which if you have a Reader's Ticket you can do from home prior to arrival) - these are then available on arrival, and saves a 45 minute wait.
Anyway, now have sufficient information to finish the id for this bowl.
There is definitely no gap with 'dot' in the text in the Registrations Data files - so guess we may never know why the bowl was made with one, and the following is the exact wording on the page for this Registered No.
""Date of Application 18/10/50
Date of Registration 18/10/50
Certificate of Registration Issued 16/8/51
Item is registered as a Salad Bowl.
Name and address of Proprietor:
Henry Dresel Ltd.,
332 Cricklewood Lane,
London NW2
and it appears to be saying Copyright Expired 18/10/55""

I have tried searching for Henry Dresel Ltd., but no luck...........anyone else aware of this name, although doubtless not the maker and probably just an wholesaler or distributor. Perhaps imported from the Continent even. Anyway, matter resolved for the time being, and now must move on to something else. So I don't get to have the triflle after all - just a boring salad. ;)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: neilh on December 05, 2010, 07:00:51 PM: Henry Dresel Ltd was a wholesale glass importer which liquidated in the early 1970s (source - London Gazette)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on December 05, 2010, 07:18:52 PM: many thanks neil - so guess we may never know who actually made the bowl - although in view of your comment about 'importer', then it seems very probable that the bowl may well have been sourced from the Continent - and this may also account for the 'dot'. Although Registration Nos. are not usually seen on Continental pressed glass, it would, as Bernard pointed out, be.............'perfectly natural for a continental European mouldmaker to separate off his thousands that way' ......believing perhaps that was what he was supposed to do. :)
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 06, 2010, 10:00:14 AM: Quote
Although Registration Nos. are not usually seen on Continental pressed glass,
That's not strictly true. Jules Lang, for example, registered and had many products marked
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Anne on December 06, 2010, 11:39:51 AM: As did Hoskins Rose, lots of Libochovice pieces show with HR design numbers.
Title: Re: unusual style of Reg. No.
Post by: Paul S. on December 06, 2010, 04:59:36 PM: Well, obviously I have led a sheltered life girls - I don't recall seeing a single piece of glass (made on the Continent) showing a No. (aside from this bowl of course ;D) However, you have now educated me, and I will now spend every waking moment looking for one :sg: :fc: