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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ivo on March 07, 2006, 04:13:13 PM

Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Ivo on March 07, 2006, 04:13:13 PM
(http://i2.tinypic.com/qy6alw.jpg)

Never come across anything like this before: Frosted ground and bottom like cameo, except you can feel the countours on the inside as if it were mould blown. Glossy vineleaves, polished rim, 12 cm / 5"high and really heavy.  Is this what is known as "faux cameo" ?
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Frank on March 07, 2006, 04:35:23 PM
Isn't that term usually applied to some of Webb's glass? In which case it is. I have never read an account of how its done, probably to late for Hadjamach.. when is his 20th C book coming out   :x
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: KevinH on March 08, 2006, 01:56:27 AM
The term "faux cameo" is one that I have not seen defined in any of my books. But it certainly is used a lot and there are plenty of google references in connection with both glass and general jewelry.

The use of the term seems to be for any item that looks like cameo work but was not actually, and wholly, hand-carved. This surely implies that any glass item that has been acid treated, even if finished with hand carving, is "faux cameo".

And yes, some people use the term for certain Webb vases from the 1930s. Here's a typical example I happen to have:
Whole thing ... http://i2.tinypic.com/qytngx.jpg
Signature part ... http://i2.tinypic.com/qytnki.jpg
But Manley spoke of "psuedo-cameo" and, taking references from the British Glass Between The Wars catalogue, the advertising literature of the time called the Webb pieces "Cameo Fleur".

The Great Glass site gives a reference (but not a definition) within the glassmakers section:
Quote
Peynaud
Bordeaux, France (1910 - 1945)
Glass refinery, "faux-cameo" enamelling, often in the Nancy style


Whether Ivo's vase is Peynaud, I would not like to say. It does not seem to fit the "enamelled" comment that Great Glass make. But it does look French(ish) to me. I don't think it's English. And note the difference in background finish between Ivo's and the Webb vase. The Webb ones are all (?) finished with the typical stippling to the clear parts.

One other point of interest is from Manley. He said, c1980, page 22 of Decorative Vistorian Glass,
Quote
To my knowledge, a type of pseudo-cameo vase has been around Britian for at 50 years. ... shaped like an Indian club ... very heavy ... a decoration of raised leaves and flowers beautifully enamelled ... seen scores of these vases sold as French and I have little doubt they are French, yet when Richardson's sold out in the 1930s, a number of these vases in various hspaes and sizes, were found in the glasshouse.


Hmmm.

Anyone know when the term "faux cameo" came into general use for glass items? And who first used it?
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: nigel benson on March 08, 2006, 02:14:18 AM
Hi,

Frank, are you thinking of Thomas Webb's "Cameo Fleur"? (which can also, incorrectly, be referred to as "pseudo-cameo").

Similar wares were also produced by Richardsons and are called "Rich Cameo". The technique used to produce them is discussed in British Glass Between the Wars in the essay by Roger Dodsworth on Thomas Webb - see page 27, with a colour illustration on page 46.

I discussed this description with Michael Parkington and Hajdamach, amongst others, in the past. Thoughts were divergant as to the possibility of achieving the design using a dip mould as mentioned in the text with no consistant agreement, which I mention purely to open discussion.

Neither Webbs or Richardsons vases diplay the techique used on your vase Ivo.

Rims on their work are fire finished (rounded) as a rule and usually have a band of the same colour as used on the flower design around the rim. The background to the design can either be a polished random hexagonal shallow cut pattern, or a random 'frosted' stipple effect. Occasionally I have seen a roughened acid polished pattern - most usually on the abstract patterned vases, for which I have no official name. The flowers used on Webb's and Richardsons are most often Lilies or Tulips, but if you look in Christies sale catalogues for Parkington I (pg 40) & II (pg 38 ) you will see the full range of colours and two with rare flower patterns and finishes.

Nigel

Edit - Just posted and found your entry Kevin!
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: KevinH on March 08, 2006, 02:16:01 AM
Ah! Multi responses again. I was editing mine with a bit if extra detail while Nigel posted his. :D
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: nigel benson on March 08, 2006, 02:22:33 AM
Hello again,

I also meant to say that your piece has a real continental feel/look to me, Ivo. Sadly I cannot say where from, but very attractive.

Nigel :)
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Ivo on March 08, 2006, 07:16:33 AM
Thanks for the high quality replies. I agree with the piece being European, I am inclined to think of Belgium myself - I'll try and get to the ground of this.
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Frank on March 08, 2006, 08:21:33 AM
Yes Nigel, I must have done. Hadjamach does mention Cameo Fleur and Pseudo Cameo but points out that cameo fleur WAS acid etched.

Bernard, I struggle to get my head round the description of the process in Between The Wars.

Ivo's piece looks like the decoration was applied, which sems unlikely.
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: KevinH on March 21, 2006, 03:39:39 PM
A kind reader of this board has emailed me in reference to my earlier comment on "Peynaud".

They say that to the best of their knowledge, Peynaud always signed his pieces. An example they showed was of the cameo style that I would certainly link to the "school of Nancy" and the signature was of regular cameo style, too.

Ivo's item does not fit into the same style as the Peynaud piece I have now seen.
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Frank on March 21, 2006, 08:33:26 PM
faux cameo as far as jewellery is concerned is made two ways - two pieces glued, two colours moulded at the same time.

It is conceivable that you could get a 'cameo' type of decoration by applying lampwork or moulded design. Perhaps it is just one of those terms that people read somewhere and use it regardless. Or invented by a dealer/writer/collector.

The only other candidates I can find are:

1883 patent 2265 solution of fixed alkali, starch and water painted on, heated till dy, coated in Varnish to stop crumbling, then fired to fuse to the glass.

1885 patent 4776 for imitation embossed glass but the result would not be very thick - Design painted on glass with Copal varnish, after drying smoothed with Rouge. No firing.

A French Vitreous enamel process produced a one eighth of an inch high design that was opaque. It was only used in UK by the Sand Blast and Ceramique Co Ltd, London in the early 1900's after the French patent expired.
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: BSevern on April 28, 2006, 10:39:31 PM
The so called "faux cameo" or "pseudo-cameo" was made by the Bohemians to capitalize on the highly successful English cameo glass of the time.  They are typically marked "Florentine Cameo" or "Cameo Art".  These ware's from a distance resemble English cameo but upon close examination are not very high quality.  The cameo part is actually white raised enamel, and many of the blanks were done in similar colors and shapes as Webb and Stevens & Williams.  The inexpensive Bohemian copies were so successful, that the market for authentic English cameo glass plummeted, and it was discontinued due to it no longer being profitable.

Here's a few examples currently on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7410919680

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7410490093

Ivo your piece was made by Baccarat c 1860, thus it predates cameo glass as we know it.

Cal
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Ivo on April 29, 2006, 05:42:11 AM
Thank you Cal I'm absolutely positively delighted with the news; it confirms all my suspicions about design, quality and workmanship on this piece. You've made my day.
Title: Re: blue vine cameo
Post by: Bernard C on April 29, 2006, 08:06:30 AM
Quote from: "Ivo"
... except you can feel the countours on the inside as if it were mould blown. ... Is this what is known as "faux cameo" ?

Ivo et al — It is with some relief that I discover that I am not the only one thoroughly confused by both the published literature and the terminology.   I had hoped that the interesting cameo pieces displayed at the Wallace in 2003 would help, but I suspect that Martine Newby, the author of the book, was as mystified as the rest of us.   To make life even more confusing, I haven't been able to throw any light on whether any of these terms are old antique dealer jargon.

Back to your interesting piece, Ivo.   The first of four ways I can envisage it was made was in a similar way to John Sowerby's first ever patent, No. 2433 of 15 September 1871, for Ornamenting pressed glass with designs in glass of a different colour, see Hajdamach pp338–9.

The "mould blown" impressions on the inside could be for two reasons.   If the whole vase was pressed, it could be that reheating for a variety of reasons produced slight distortion.

I have photographs of two scarce Sowerby plates made under John Sowerby's 1871 patent, one with green decoration, the other with blue, but they don't really help, other than proving that the patent was for a process that actually worked and went into production, information not available to Hajdamach in 1991.    (another margin note!)

The second was as the first but the first stage would have been the production of a thin-walled blue pressed vase incorporating the ornaments.   Then as the first, but with a final stage of removal of the thin blue layer by the use of acid or mechanical means.

The third was as the first but with a blown clear glass second stage.   Here the first stage shape would have had to have been cup-shaped.   I can't see how the pressure necessary to bond the ornaments to the vase would have been achieved here, but it is still a possibility.

The fourth was as the second but with a blown clear glass second stage.   Here the first stage shape would have had to have been cup-shaped.   The process of reshaping would have produced the internal impressions.  

Sources: Cottle, Newby, Hajdamach, & Thompson.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Bernard C on April 30, 2006, 01:05:41 AM
I have added some more ideas to my previous reply.   Please tell me if they are impossible.    At least I am trying!

Bernard C.  8)
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Ivo on April 30, 2006, 06:41:46 AM
Thanks fort the technical observations Bernard.
I think the piece was blue flashed before being mould blown, and the flashing and mould lines were subsequently removed by acid etching. The genius part of it is the matt background which has a pattern of planks, as if the vines are crawling along a partition, all achieved by varying depth of etching.
Bit I am not excluding the piece was made an another way...
Title: blue vine cameo
Post by: Frank on April 30, 2006, 09:44:45 AM
Perhaps it is worth pursuing with Baccarat?