Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: nigel benson on March 20, 2007, 08:07:19 PM
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Hi all,
I'm a little surprised that there has been no comment about this one on the board. Ebay No. 120098725436. I notice that Manley is being used as the reference - but is like being compared to like??
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
According to the seller, there were 5 interested parties who requested a photo of the base, now supplied. For me, it doesn't help in the least. Is it Monart? I'm uncertain enough probably not to have a bid, too risky for me.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this vase.
Regards
Mary
:-\
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Had not noticed it... looks Chinese and fresh off the shelf.
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Hi,
Pieces with this colour way have been turning up for many years. Vases, bowls(?) and lamp shades. They have been given honoray status as Aboresque Ware from S&W for as long as I can recall, but I cannot recall any precise proof of this.
They never have a Monart pontil, and by now, if they were Monart, one would have been seen with a typical pontil. Indeed, the finish of the base suggests that it has been blown into a mould. The surface has a more melted-in effect and the colours are used (together) in the way that is not seen on known pieces of Monart. Monart surface decorated wares have, on the whole, a 'dryer' look, without the sheen that appears on these items.
Therefore, I believe this is not Monart, but I can fully understand why the seller believes that it is - especially as it is the closest to a Monart shape that I've seen.
I must add my apologies to the seller, since I don't normally interfere with sales, but it's an annomally that has occured for far too long.
Nigel
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honoray status as Aboresque Ware from S&W for as long as I can recall, but I cannot recall any precise proof of this.
I have handled those but while this is closer to those than Monart, I do think this is something completely different. I have seen this finish in gift shops.
Academic as the sale has been cancelled now. See comments on bids!
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Seller responded
I'm selling it on behalf of a professional glass dealer who doesn't sell on ebay so personally couldn't give a flying on your amateur opinion. Do you think all the bidders are idiots and are simply taking my word for it?
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Another mail ??? seems this glass will stay unsold though.
This item will be relisted, you do not know Monart cloisonne glass, it was made using an entirely different technique and has no pontil. I am obtaining authentication as we speak and will soon report you to ebay for auction interference, you may then have trouble purchasing your little glass animals. No way was I letting anyone obtain this glass for less than £400 anyway so it hasn't hurt me one bit.
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Charming! His friend sounds like a dealer to avoid as well. I presume you've written to Gary? (millerart} seeing as he was top bidder.
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I just wrote to the seller, also sent him a link here. I did not see much point contact collectors as they knew it was not Monart. Many Monart collectors also collect examples of the look-alikes as it helps to have a feel for the different techniques that produce visually confusing pieces.
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Dearie me, he obviously attended the same charm school as my little eBay 'chum' ::) Now be told Frank, you know nothing about Monart cloisonne glass, just stick to your little animals .... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
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Perhaps I had better issue a recall for the book Ysart Glass, because the book shows several examples of cloissoné decoration and only with pontil buttons :o
For the benefit of those who do not know what the Ysart collectors having been collecting as Cloissonné... until now...
(http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Colimages/Colour018.jpg)(http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Colimages/Colour064.jpg)(http://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/Colimages/Colour306.jpg)
Whole piece with base view (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.view_images&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=1425&category_id=195&Itemid=1)
Back to the zoo (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.view_images&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=1554&category_id=224&Itemid=1)
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Charming! His friend sounds like a dealer to avoid as well. I presume you've written to Gary? (millerart} seeing as he was top bidder.
Hi to all, long time no speak :-X,
i never bid on this piece i think it must have been Luckyslap (Keith) and now even if the guy had Ysart glass to sell i wouldnt buy anything from him now, what an aXX hXXX, ::) that was certainaly no way to speak to anyone like he spoke to Frank, so much for trying to help people, if he had been broken down at the side of a road and someone offered help would he have been so rude , i dont think so, anyway i shall note the sellers name and i for one wont bother bidding on any of his items, >:(, well unless he come up with a stunning piece of Perthshire glass ;D ;D
Millarart
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He certainly does lack manners! But also, he says, he is selling this for a friend and clearly prefers to believe in that friends knowledge to strangers on the web. But with something that is so well documented on-line as Monart, it is amazing that he did not even check his friends assessment once questions started to come in.
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Hi all,
Unfortunately, I seem to have disturbed some hornets!!
Whilst the seller's replies to Frank are somewhat terse, surely it is quite understandable? Why would they need to check the internet before selling?
If they have a copy of "Ysart Glass", then by looking at the b/w catalogue at the back they could very easily think the shape was a variation on either 'FA' or 'PC'. The crackled surface is also extremely similar to to that of Monart Cliosonne. The seller, and his agent would naturally be expecting a good sale...........and it's been spoilt. They may even have gone out on a limb to buy the vase, and are unable to return it to their seller.
Most of us would be irritated. Now, I know that there are far better ways of replying, but we're not all the same - it could even have been worse!
Maybe it's better to start from the premise that when sending information that is likely to affect a sale detrementally you're all, but inciting a bad reaction?
My motivation in drawing folks attention to the sale was to let them know that this series of wares exist - and to take note.
At the price at the time anyone could have been buying the vase as a comparison piece, as Frank suggests, but instead the auction has been stopped by the ebay seller.
Of course, it's a good thing that nobody overspent, but let's not assume the seller was trying-it-on, and maybe spare a thought for how they get out of the problem. Yes, this is a risk that any dealer, or collector for that matter, takes, but it ain't a nice feeling when you find out you've made a mistake.
Nigel
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Why would they need to check the internet before selling?
I said "once questions started to come in" apart from which I was saying the same as you.
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Frank,
You're being too sensitive :(. My question about the internet preceded its own answer in the next paragraph.
Naturally, as you say, most folks might think it a good idea to do more research if extra questions start to come in about their auction. That research can be done on the internet or not, or even by using both internet and terrestrial sources. I sure all of us have experienced the feeling that we know we are right about about a piece of glass, only to have our thoughts and pleasure (financial and/or aesthetic) dashed when a dose of reality comes rushing in. It's a horrible feeling, especially since it can also undermine confidence in one's knowledge.
The intention of my last entry was to try and calm the dicussion down a little. There are invariably two sides to a story and it seemed sensible to air that possibility, so I am pleased that we are broadly in agreement :).
Kind wishes, Nigel
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Sorry Nigel but I can't agree that Frank is being too sensitive.
The seller's responses are not merely terse, but disrespectful to the point of sillyness. Although the seller may feel disappointed, he should show more respect to someone who has co-authored the definitive book on Ysart Glass, than to imply that he is merely a collector of glass animals. Yes it is probably an innocent mistake by the seller, but I looked at the images of this piece and was very doubtful about the attribution and I only have one piece of Cloisonne and probably handled another two so my experience is extremely limited. Surely anyone with a modicum of understanding would acknowledge the need for further research when they are clearly not experts in the field.
In fact you did all of the potential buyers of this piece a great favour when you drew our attention to this item and gave your own attribution. It's a pity that Frank seems to have got all the flak!
I have learned a lot from your knowledge as it has been disseminated via this forum so please keep up the good work.
John
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For what its worth, the animals are proving a very interesting subject indeed. You can imagine my shock at finding Vasart also made a couple! But more to the point, nearly every glassworks of note has made some as production in addition to the whimsies. Despite which, they are probably one of the least documented areas of glass... the zoo is intending to change that!
As to getting all the flak, it just bounces off these days, but your caring is highly appreciated thank you.
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Hello John,
My comment about sensitivity was about something I wrote in this thread and not about Frank's reaction to the seller's attitude. I know that by now Frank's shoulders must be broad indeed with the number of sellers he has communicated with over the years - and the varied reactions he must have received.
The subject of respect is a whole different thing and may be more suited to the Cafe, as it is not about glass.
Thanks for your comments about learning - it seems I'm doing myself out of a job :'( :-X :'(
I think all that needs to be said about the glass has been in this case, so I think I will now abstain from anymore comment on this thread :)
Nigel