Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: jakgene on December 14, 2012, 09:57:24 AM
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I bought this online here in Oz recently - it arrived yesterday.
Before purchasing I checked it against the fakes information on Whitefriars.com. It looked okay to me, so I bid on it. - also I did find an item on Whitefriars.com that stated that there were no fake tangerine bricklayers (that was as at 2009 though)
to me it feels okay - it looks okay - I have a tangerine jug and a tangerine bark vase, and had a coffin vase too until recently, and weight, heft, clarity etc all seem okay. However the colour does seems little less vivid - certainly less vivid than the jug - see picture.
I posted positive feedback for the seller (who by the way did not use the word Whitefriars in the advert) , and today received an email from someone I don't know advising me that I had possibly bought a fake and to have it checked. I can only assume they got my details as the buyer from the feedback I left.
Would appreciate opinions please, and does anyone know if there have now been any fake tangerine bricklayers discovered?
It is 20 cm or approx 8 inches tall. Will also post to Whitefriars.com but can only upload one photo there - hence why my query is here!
I probably have no comeback against the seller anyway - but would appreciate your comments - Emmi in particular if you are out there!
regards
JAK
West Oz
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"Drunken bricklayers" in a wide range of colours are everywhere here; I suspect you bought a dud
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Hi Jak, pretty sure it's a copy if you look at the genuine one in this link and look at the top four left indentations the right hand two of the indentations almost touch each other. There are more than one type of copy the one in the black and white talc photos on Whitefriars.com is an Horncastle studios one which as five indentations in the top rather like a five spot on a dice which differs from yours.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMETHYST-DRUNKEN-BRICKLAYER-ART-GLASS-VASE-/261141542059?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item3ccd3fb4ab
Which may have confused you. So unless Whitefriars changed the mould at sometime and used more than one which I am pretty sure they did not it's a copy I'm afraid and sell in the UK for around £20.
I am here to be shot down and and could be completely wrong so please wait for another opinion :)
Here is the genuine one....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Superb-Authentic-Whitefriars-Aubergine-Drunken-Bricklayer-Vase-/170957367900?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D4147976080488108572%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D130809127356%26
Had a look at the listing and pretty sure the seller knew what is was, just enough information to let you think you were getting a bargain with no come back on them. The thing is they are that well known a model you don't after go overboard with the description a lot just play it 'cool' and reckon not to know anything about it and hope to 'hook' bidders into thinking they are getting a bargain? I think your only redress is to get in touch with the seller point them here and hope they are fair enough to let you return it but to be honest how they have worded the listing is quite cute so really have not done a lot wrong.
If ever you have concerns in the future please feel free to ask me before you bid I promise I will not 'gazzump' you ;D
Chris
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Hi Jakgene,
That was me that sent you the email. It was originally listed as Whitefriars Baxter piece and at $375 if I remember correctly. I informed the seller that it was a fake and the response I got was quite rude LOL.
24hrs later they removed the Whitefriars and the Baxter information and it still had the same price. It was the lowered to the price you paid for it. I thought the purchaser had a right to now they were being over charge on it.
When I first saw it I knew it didn't look right.
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Thanks to everyone for your assistance with this. Looks as I have been had!
Thanks to Kane particularly.
Kane could you please email me off board via my link. - I don't see an email link under your name
I would like to ask a couple of questions but not on here.
Thanks
JAK
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I'll send you my email address via ebay :)
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Hi Jak, did you try appealing to their better nature first, I personally think this helps before lodging a claim.
If you click on 'view all revisions' you will see the seller altered
the listing by adding pictures/deleting the description/changing the title description and the minimum start price, obviously after Kane had been in touch?
So really they can argue they have not done a lot wrong.
Like I said they have been cute and left just enough in the description with Tangerine, textured, polished pontil and the word drunken bricklayer to make you think you had found a bargain. The genuine ones normally sell for around £220 over here the copies have been fooling buyers for around 4 or 5 years.
Chris
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Hi all
I lodged a claim with Paypal re this reproduction vase - and have been asked to provide the following - extract from Paypal email
<<To continue, we need documentation supporting your claim that the item is
not authentic.
Here’s what you need to do.
1. Obtain a document from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer,
appraiser, or an organization that is qualified in the area of the item in
question (other than you). This document should contain the following:
• Detailed description as to why the item is not authentic (i.e., how the
item differs from an authentic item, how the person evaluating the item
determined that it is not authentic, etc.).
• If possible, the document should include a serial number and must be on
letterhead that includes the name, address, and phone number of the
authenticating party so that we can contact them directly, if necessary. >>
I am not aware of anyone here in Western Australia who could provide the authentication I need, although I will be phoning local auction houses this week once they reopen to ask . Can any of you advise where I may be able to find a third party able to provide such information?
Any assistance appreciated.
Jackie
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Hi Jak, could give Steve Rayner (Wolfie)a mail pretty sure he will be able to help?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6036
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Surely a query on the whitefriars site itself, with the several top wfs experts there responding, would do?
Or Emmi's "wannabes" blog? You don't get "more expert" than that.
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Not really a job for an 'expert' it's actually quite easy to tell the difference and I am sure Emmi or others are quite capable of doing it :) the only problem being the letter I am sure the 'expert' needs to be an official dealer with an official letterhead? I may be wrong of course :)
The reason I suggest getting in touch with Wolfie is he has done a lot of work from the start regarding the 'copies' and I know he's got examples and as written tutorials on the subject.
Chris
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Apologies - I would have assumed the existance of the wfs site itself, and the research already "published" on the wfs site would have been more authouritative than any headed notepaper or auction house "expert"!
Even I know you just need to count the bobbley bits on the middle brick - (and know what the correct number should be). ;D
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I know Sue :) can remember though a dealer in Bristol selling them as genuine when they first surfaced years ago and had the devils own job with eBay/PayPal convincing them they were fake. They definitely insisted on a statement from an auction house on headed paper.
Chris
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As most auction houses I've come across would not know a fake from an original, that request seems to be ridiculous.
Here's a link to the original feature on wf/com
http://www.whitefriars.com/bricklayers.php
I know Wolfie has done further research since that was first put on the forum, so it would also be worth asking him if he could provide something which would satisfy the ebay/Paypal police!
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Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
I had already provided Paypal with the link to the query I had posted to whitefriars.com - where a number of expert people stated that it was a fake - but apparently that is not sufficient for Paypal.
I have emailed Wolfie to see if he can help.
If I cannot get this before 9 Jan my claim will be cancelled.
thanks again
Jackie
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What Ho Jackie! this is a fake of course. I have email you with as much info as possible.
This one comes from the latest batch which appeared about 2 years ago, the strange thing about it is someone has ground a pontil in to it. Still 100% not Whitefriars.
Wolfie
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Much appreciated Wolfie
Please see my email to you.
regards
Jackie
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I noticed this paragraph in one of your previous posts whereby PayPal state
1. Obtain a document from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer,
appraiser, or an organization that is qualified in the area of the item in
question (other than you). This document should contain the following:
I would have thought that the information you have directed them to on this GMB thread and the whitefriars.com site should well fall into the needed requirements as stated in the above quote . Stick by your guns!
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Thanks for the support. Although I have already provided the links to the information on Whitefriars.com it obviously wasn't in the format Paypal wanted.
I have now received more detailed info from Wolfie (thanks again) and will present it in exactly the format Paypal have requested - hopefully they will then take note.
will let you know how I get on.
I will have to wait until 7th Jan as I have to fax the information - not email- which I can do when I return to the office on Monday next. I have offered to take a partial refund and keep the vase - that way I can have it marked on the base with Reproduction - 2010 or similar - thereby taking at least one off the market.!
Jackie
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Hey jakgene, how is this one panning out for you?
I hope it is getting sorted :)
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You must be psychic Kane - I received an email at 5.28 am this morning from Paypal telling me to mail it back to the seller and once I prove I have done so they will issue a full refund to me.
I would have preferred to accept a part refund and keep it - then I could be sure the same thing doesn't happen again - I would have engraved it on the base as a reproduction, however that is not an option I have been given. If I don't send proof of tracked mailing then I don't get the refund. I hope the seller now will sell it next time (if he does) with a proper description as a reproduction.
Thanks you for your help in this. Much appreciated
Will be thanking Wolfie again via Whitefriars.com, and making a donation to the site as a thankyou.
regards
Jackie
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I will keep an eye out for it being listed again. I am sure it will be listed again in a few months deceitfully. At least you will be getting your money back on it. Considering what you paid for it!
I would love to break it to make sure there is one less piece of this fake stuff out in the market place LOL :)
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I wasn't going to break it - but was going to get my son to dremel 2010 and repro into the base of it!
Unfortunately it would cost me $220 to do that - which I cannot really afford! so back it has gone.
And I will also keep an eye open for it.
regards
Jackie
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Surely it wouldn't cost $220 to dremel it? :o :o :o
You could have used a diamond point pen (not expensive, from an art shop); you could have asked your friendly local dentist to help...
I've had a bit of glass someboody marked with their own name and address, just scratched with (probably) a diamond point pen.
I do agree the repros should be marked as such, so they can't be passed off as the far more expensive originals.
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Glad you got it sorted Jak :)
Sue, I think Jak means it was a little too expensive at $220 to keep it in order to 'dremel' it :)
Chris
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Doh!
I did think Son was rather overcharging Mum for such a wee job. ;D :-[ ;D
and I was slightly concerned about whether or not it would have been "defacing" the item (before returning it) as it technically belongs to somebody else.
Just a real pity you didn't get a refund of $200 and get to keep it. :'(
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Personally I would have marked it all over 'fake' with a UV pen before I sent it back then if it does get resold you could inform the new owner to shine a black light on it.
Chris
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Ha Ha ;D Misunderstanding indeed. No - there was no charge to dremel it - it was just that the terms of the refund were that it was returned to the seller in original condition. And the $220 was my refund that i would have lost if I had dremeled it. I did offer when I lodged the claim to take a part refund and keep it - but that wasn't an option as far as Paypal were concerned.
Mind you - if I had known that such things as UV pens existed - and had one - I probably would have been tempted! However it has gone back now.
I will be watching for it coming up for sale again though - as will Kane - who advised me it was a fake in the first place. and we will be letting the seller know we are watching.
Jackie
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You can buy the pens for about a £1 or the kit with the black light for £6
Handy to mark your items you sell on eBay good for the 'dodgy' buyers who have a damaged item who buy your 'perfect' piece and claim it was 'damaged' when they received it!!! it does happen.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-violet-black-light-lamp-torch-FREE-UV-marker-pen-NEW-/150979975008?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Camping_LightsLanternsTorches&hash=item23271b9760
Chris
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Thanks Chris
Will keep an eye open.
I don't sell much though - and when I do it is usually in person at a collectors fair.
Thanks for the tip though
Jackie