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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: Anik R on November 10, 2010, 01:15:32 PM

Title: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Anik R on November 10, 2010, 01:15:32 PM
I was lucky enough to get this Adolf Matura Libochovice 983 ashtray for my Czech glass collection, but I've got a question about its strange size...  Having browsed the catalogues, I know it was made in two sizes, 12cm and 17cm. 
Mine, however, is 15,2cm in diameter -- was there a 15cm version of this ashtray as well?

Thank you for your help :)


Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2010, 02:17:34 PM
I have a few of these and they are all just over 15cm 
m
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Jindra8526 on November 10, 2010, 04:58:33 PM
Have anybody seen dimension 17?

Jindrich
www.webareal.cz/ceskoslovenskesklo
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: glassobsessed on November 10, 2010, 05:02:29 PM
Not yet......

John
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Jindra8526 on November 10, 2010, 05:06:59 PM
I will chcek it with our Sklo Union collectors, but possibly size 17 is typing error.
JIndrich
www.webareal.cz/ceskoslovenskesklo
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Anik R on November 10, 2010, 05:11:59 PM
Thank you for the replies...

But I'm confused.  Both Mark Hill and Marcus Newhall give 17cm as the diameter.  Jindrich, the Matura catalogue in the designers section of your site gives 12cm as the diameter.  But now it seems everyone has got an ashtray which is 15cm in diameter.  Is 15cm mentioned anywhere?  Is the 17cm a mistake?  Was this ashtray available in three sizes?  :huh:

Again, I ask for your patience with me.  :-[


EDIT:  Thank you, Jindrich...  I posted my questions before I read your second post.   :kissy:
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Nemmie on November 10, 2010, 06:49:34 PM
I only have one and it's 15,8 cm.   :huh:
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Anik R on November 10, 2010, 07:14:52 PM
Hmmmmm...  Mine is a little smaller:
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Jindra8526 on November 10, 2010, 09:24:42 PM
It can be typing error Anik, I will check what is available, but seems to me that your Matura is real one - rare colour I suppose.
The mold fabrication was/is very expensive, I do not believe that more than two, but I suppose only one size of this ashtray had been manufactured.
This is advanture of our hobby, to search and check, and finaly attribute.

Jindrich
www.webareal.cz/ceskoslovenskesklo
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Anik R on November 10, 2010, 10:01:16 PM
Thank you, Jindrich!

I think it's very interesting that there may not be a 12cm or a 17cm 983 ashtray, even though these are the only numbers I have found 'documented'.  The search for truth continues...  :)
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2010, 10:48:26 PM
My amethyst one is 15.7cm and my turquoise one is 15.4.  I had another which I gave to a friend which was also turquoise and was certainly bigger than the one I have left, I believe also around 15.7cm.  I remember at the time I bought this one wondering why it seemed slightly smaller  :-\

m
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: glassobsessed on November 10, 2010, 11:17:33 PM
According to Marcus Newhall in Sklo Union Art Before Industry (page 135) this ashtray probably had two moulds. One would have been used at a second factory to help in periods of high demand.

This might account for minor variations in size. There may also be a variation due to the size of the initial gob of hot glass that was cut and dropped into the mould. Not sure about that though, don't know enough about the production process.

John
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Frank on July 01, 2011, 04:16:21 PM
This item is also Hermanova Hut 1961 pattern 20034 according to the Newhall database. However there is no reference given to the source of that attribution nor the sizes given in the database. The Rosice 1983 catalogue gives 15cm as the ONLY size. In the Newhall page  gives a date of 1959 in the caption (database gives an reference to the Gottwaldov catalogue 1972... (reviewed below). Clearly the database is incorrect for 983 based on the data provided with the book and is giving different data to the text in the book as well as the image caption. As the book states this to be one of Maturas most popular designs it is remarkably inconsistent and leaves only confusion for the collector.

Summary of Newhall data:
Book - Rosice 983 no date given but speculates on 1961, size 17cm.
Database states 2 sizes 120 and 170mm date 1962. (Is the 1962 just speculation as suggested by the text?)
Book Hermanova Hut 20034 caption states 1959 tex and database state 1961.
Compounding lack of source the database uses two different angle images of the same piece to illustrate both 983 20034... clearly one is WRONG.

On Jindrich's site the Adolf Matura Sklo Union catalogue shows this as 983 Libochovice  :huh: and a size of 12cm.... The Gottwaldov catalogue (1972) gives the size as 15cm and catalogue code 983/170 not that the size convention of this coding is wrong and should be 150 although the 1983 catalogue actually notates 983/15cm. This catalogue also gives a Rosice date of 1961

Summary of original sources.

Sizes 12cm and 15cm, no mention of 17cm. Rosice apparently only listing 15cm in 1983 only design date being 1961.

Libochovice mention is certainly an error and the /170 a mistype! The 12cm could be a typing error too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My view
The 20034 attribution may be referenced in some other source such as CGR still to be determined... until such time this remains a shaky attribution and without other evidence it would seem that only one size was produced from 1961 at Rosice as pattern 983.
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Anik R on July 01, 2011, 06:35:56 PM
Hi Frank,

The Hermanova 20034 attribution comes from the CGR 1962/8...  the first time I believe the Matura ashtray appears in the periodical.

In subsequent editions, the Matura ashtray is referred to as 983/15cm Moravia-Rosice (CGR 1963/7) then 983/15cm Rosice (CGR 1963/12, 1965/3, 1970/3...).  Always 15cm.

By the way, Mark Hill (Hi Sklo Lo Sklo) attributes the ashtray to Libochovice 983, and also (wrongly) gives 17cm as the diameter.

Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Frank on July 01, 2011, 08:23:44 PM
Thank Anik, just reviewed a few of those..

1962/8 983/15 cm Rosice
1963/7 20034 1961 no size given Hermanova
1963/12  983/15 cm Rosice

Interesting it got shown so often in CGR.

So I can now adjust my view:

1961 at Rosice as pattern 983 size 15cm and 20034 Hermanova Hut, production size unknown but probably 15cm.

With one reservation - the image with 20034 attribution is the same as used for Rosice attribution! Final proof would be a Hermanova Hut catalogue illustration and size data.
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Anik R on July 01, 2011, 08:34:52 PM
Ah, I've misread my scribbles...  you're right -- the first time the Matura ashtray appreared in the CGR, it was attributed to Rosice.  The second time it appeared, it was Hermanova (with no size).  All the other times, Rosice, 15cm.

 :ho:  Sorry for getting the information messed up.  Bad day.
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Frank on July 01, 2011, 08:39:21 PM
No matter, always helps when two or more people check data and cross reference as it seems both of the books have gotten things a little bit wrong!
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: MarkHill on July 16, 2011, 09:31:28 AM
Hi,
Frank kindly told me about this thread. I have searched back through my original records taken at the photographic shoot and found that the ashtray shown in my book Hi Sklo Lo Sklo measured very close to 15.5cm in diameter. Given a fabric tape measure was being used, rather than calipers, it may well be 15cm.
Mea culpa, the correct measurement will appear on the new errata sheet and any subsequent editions.
Best,
Mark
Title: Re: Matura 983 ashtray for Libochovice -- but funny size?
Post by: Anik R on July 17, 2011, 01:23:02 PM
Thank you, Mark.  :)