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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: sussexglass on July 06, 2012, 10:28:16 AM

Title: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: sussexglass on July 06, 2012, 10:28:16 AM
recently aquired this small mainly red with adventurine? flecks vase. would appreciate any help with id.  has a chinese yen yen inspired shape, seen similar shape on strathearn page ysartglass  no leaping fish on base seems quite rough in places on unground? base . vase quite heavy for its 4 1/2 inch height. outer clear glass layer has a couple  small of defects/ artifacts of manufacture many thanks
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 06, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
I would strongly suspect Strathearn. These smaller pieces don't often have the leaping salmon pontil mark.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: KevinH on July 06, 2012, 04:11:18 PM
Based on the fact that hardly any (if any at all) Strathearn paperweights had rough grinding to the base, I would suggest Vasart (1956 - 1964). Or did Strathearn use neater finishing for paperweights only?
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: sussexglass on July 07, 2012, 09:04:18 AM
thanks for your imput.  does anyone have info on the relative thickness and relative weight difference between the various enterprises of the ysart's vases as some of the various info on web seems contradictory to me. also are the defects i mentioned to the surface ( its like an applied irregular blob with a proud edge with very thin trail extending  about 3/4 inch)  layer more prevalent at one particular vsart glasshouse than another?  many thanks again for any info
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Gary on July 07, 2012, 12:32:02 PM
That type of base finish was used in the later years of Vasart production and in the early years of Strathearn.
http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/IDguide1.htm
To date, no Vasart of that shape of vase has been recorded though Strathearn did produce a vase that shape (V037).
http://www.ysartglass.com/Vascat/VasV021.htm
Gary
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 08, 2012, 12:46:14 PM
And Vasart didn't often use strong colours such as this. It looks quite thick, which says Strathearn is likely to me, along with the colour.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: sussexglass on July 09, 2012, 01:52:52 PM
sue and gary, thanks for your imput. its appreciated. its certainly noticeably heavier and a bit thicker than a monart bowl (label) i have and has  surface artifacts of manufacture that my monart piece does not have. my only query now is how often did strathearn use adventurine?  many thanks
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: chopin-liszt on July 09, 2012, 02:16:58 PM
Strathearn used aventurine quite a lot.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: KevinH on July 09, 2012, 07:30:38 PM
Quote
That type of base finish was used in the later years of Vasart production and in the early years of Strathearn.
http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysart/IDguide1.htm

Gary, could you please quote a part of the text from that "IDguide" that mentions a ground base finish for early Strathearn. The only reference I know of is to the grinding off of the Strathearn Leaping Salmon in an attempt to pass off items as Monart.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: nigel benson on July 09, 2012, 10:09:16 PM
Ah Hum!

V037 unrecorded?? How remiss of me :o I've had this sitting in the display cabinaet for a few years now:http://www.20thcentury-glass.org.uk/id59.html  (http://www.20thcentury-glass.org.uk/id59.html)  I've only just added the photo, so you may have to wait for the servers to pick it up......sorry!! Below the dark green cliosonne Vasart you'll find a small V037 Vasart vase.

I'd add it here, but I find it too darn frustrating working out how to do it!

Oh, the vase on the thread is certainly Strathearn  :)

Nigel
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Frank on July 10, 2012, 01:09:09 AM
Nigel, what do you base the attribution to Vasart on? It is odd that no others have shown up in this shape in more normal Vasart colouring and Strathearn did produce some Cloisonne.

As to thickness of Strathearn - it was not made thick initially, no different at all to any Vasart including colours which were obviously brought along from the Shore Works. But with the desire to add the seal the thinner Vasart approach simply could not take the seal without cracking in anneallling. So we got the best possible differentiator through this choice even though not all pieces were 'sealed'.

One can only make the assumption that the finish of small pieces was minimal effort to keep cost as low as possible.

I recently discovered that the vitrolite tiles often referred to as a cheap colouring... is misleading. Vitrolite colours were used by a lot of people in the 50s Pilkingtonś in Doncaster sold mostly broken pieces by the tea chest. They were used extensively in Pirelli lampwork figures and may well have been introduced at Vasart via Dunlop, but it could have been the other way around. Colours available included black, white,  light blue, grey, jade green, pastel green, cream and red. Although red was scarce. So could be some interesting research in matching Pirelli figures to Vasart glass. n.b. Pirelli also sourced a wider pallete from P&T in rod form. Vitrolite  must have been a variation on soda glass for it to have mixed so well with it.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Gary on July 10, 2012, 09:31:08 AM
This is the quote from Franks site for base type 5 " This base is seen on some late Vasart, common on Strathearn, and on all Perthshire Paperweights glassware, but NEVER on Monart. Many Vasart pieces exhibit a similar finish but with a grinding scar left from a completely ground-off pontil". .
Gary
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: adam20 on July 10, 2012, 08:47:55 PM
I have owned many of these small vases with similar bases and they were Strathearn - I'll see if I can dig the photos out.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Frank on July 10, 2012, 09:09:49 PM
This is the quote from Franks site for base type 5 " This base is seen on some late Vasart, common on Strathearn, and on all Perthshire Paperweights glassware, but NEVER on Monart. Many Vasart pieces exhibit a similar finish but with a grinding scar left from a completely ground-off pontil". .
Gary

Data was collected from examination of A LOT of pieces in many collections over a year or two and discussed at length with collectors. But this was in the 1980s since which time there have been many new designs and decorations, especially of Strathearn. However the techniques used in the making all evolved by the Ysart family and passed on to many workers at Vasart and Strathearn - it unlikely that any significant changes would occur as until later Strathearn all of the glassmakers were Ysart trained. The seal was a significant change from within the team... it would be interesting to find out how that came about, Dave Moir might now and is worth someone following up and at the same time getting his feedback on the base finishing and if and when changes had been deliberately introduced.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: KevinH on July 10, 2012, 10:20:21 PM
Gary, many thanks for the text you referred to.

The base finish 5 of the ysartglass page relates to items where "The central area is smooth to touch but has an irregular surface." And the description begins "Figure Five has no pontil, the glass having been held by a ‘gadget’ instead of the Punty Iron."

Since it was a "gadget held" finish, this does not tie in with early Strathearn items having a ground pontil area, and that is the point I was making about the paperweights, and hence why I raised it in connection with the vase, which does have (to my eyes) a rough ground finish.

The text about some Vasart items having a similar finish, but with grinding as well, seems rather odd in a section for "gadget finished" items. But regardless of that it does not suggest that any Strathearn items also had grinding to the base.

As Frank has mentioned, Dave Moir may be able to shed more light on the finishing of items around the time of change from Vasart to Strathearn. However, my understanding that Strathearn paperweights did not have ground pontil areas came from information provided by Dave Moir, although I may have misunderstood things. I also admit that my thoughts on base finishes for weights and other wares being of the same general principle is only an assumption on my part.

Is there anybody out there with any proven Strathearn vase having a ground out pontil area?
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Frank on July 11, 2012, 12:26:05 AM
Strathearn is a big hole in research... silly that I did not make the effort to go there and get lots of first hand info while they were still operating... but there are quite a few of their ex-workers still living in Scotland... worth chasing them down Gary.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Gary on July 11, 2012, 10:17:01 PM
The photo here is of the base of a Strathearn bowl with the type of finish (type 5 on Frank's site) ie" No pontil. The central area is smooth to touch but has an irregular surface".
I can accurately put a date on this particular bowl, as it was given to my parents as an anniversary present in 1965.
Gary
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: KevinH on July 11, 2012, 11:03:53 PM
Yes, that fits with part of the description for the type 5 base.

But unlike the vase for this thread, it is not ground out. It has had some fire polishing or has been formed in a way that leaves "smooth undulations".
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: nigel benson on July 13, 2012, 11:46:45 AM
.Hello,

I did put a reply on earlier, effectively saying the Frank had a fair point about Cliosonne and Strathearn, however it somehow disappeared :o

I believe that, having done some extra research, I can now answer at least part of the the question about Vasart and Cliosonne.
........................................
In the Pottery Gazette and Glass Trade Review, Reference Book and Directory 1961 there is an advert for Pirelli Glass, below which there is another half page advert for Vasart. There are five pieces of Vasart illustrated, two of which are 'normal' small item production - a bowl and a basket.

The other three are Vasart Cliosonne. The first being a large shape V008 vase (NB. Nearest, but not identcal); the second a small shape V029 vase (as shown here:http://www.20thcentury-glass.org.uk/id59.html (http://www.20thcentury-glass.org.uk/id59.html) ); and the last is a footed cylindrical lamp, shape L006.

I'm wondering therefore whether the blue version of shape V037 that I have could well be Vasart? (I notice that it's still not showing on the website so I'll have another go).

Nigel
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: flying free on July 13, 2012, 03:52:15 PM
Nigel I am confused  :-\

 'I'm wondering therefore whether the blue version of shape V037 that I have could well be Vasart? (I notice that it's still not showing on the website so I'll have another go).'

On your link to your site I am seeing a blue cloisonne vase on your site link identified  as 'Unrecorded Vasart - shape V037 - in rare cloisonne technique'

I don't see a small V029 identified as such on your site link which you refer to in the above post.
m
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: nigel benson on July 13, 2012, 06:35:11 PM
Michelle,

When I look at the site the new photo of the blue cliosonne V037 vase isn't showing - hence my comment above.

The small dark green cliosonne vase is the V029. Is that not showing?

Nigel
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: flying free on July 13, 2012, 06:51:07 PM
The small dark green thistle shaped cloisonne is showing but without a code, just purely described as Vasart thistle shaped etc.
That isn't what I'm confused about.
The blue cloisonne is showing and is identified as I indicated below which is causing my confusion.  You said above you were wondering whether it could be Vasart V037 yet it is on the site identified as such  :-\
m
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: nigel benson on July 13, 2012, 09:14:16 PM
Really Michelle, do forgive my indicision, or, perhaps, read behind the query??

Nigel

EDIT: I left the query to allow for debate on the GMB, however I nailed my colours to the mast on my own site.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: flying free on July 13, 2012, 10:19:14 PM
Sorry Nigel  :-* I'm just trying to follow the thread and it's become quite confusing, or I have become confused, by what are considered Strathearn markers and which are Vasart.

m
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Frank on July 16, 2012, 03:55:07 PM
Most of the Strathearn cloissonne type are with a speckled outer and distinctly non Ysart, whereas Nigel's V037 is in a colouring typical with the Vasart/Ysart version. However, I am not content that this be used as an indicator it is Vasart. Without a signed or labeled Vasart of shape V037 having been seen to date, I am inclined to disagree with Nigel's attribution and state my opinion that his V037 is indeed Strathearn.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: nigel benson on July 16, 2012, 05:31:54 PM
Slightly contradictory Frank, but I do understand what you're saying, and why. I think caution is invariably a good thing with attribution, so I'm happy to listen to your comments.

Of course a signed or labelled version would be the clincher, so maybe we just have to wait? Something will turn up in the fullness of time I'm sure.

Perhaps some judicious editing is called for elsewhere? ??? :o

Cheers, Nigel
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Frank on July 16, 2012, 07:54:37 PM
Yes a remark could be added but I am working flat out on getting 3 sites updated right now so no real time to address that one! It would be good to hear what others think too.

But I would qualify that in my opinion this is an Ysart vase, even if not by one of their hands unless Vincent of course. Pity we are always asked to say it is one or the other as we cannot accurately date such pieces.

Supposing the design was first made in the last month at Shore Road and not even sold until after the move!
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Frank on July 16, 2012, 08:03:26 PM
Another thought for description.

Ysart vase decorated in a fashion and colour used at Vasart Ltd but in a shape until now identified as only made at Strathearn.

Presenting an intriguing mystery until it can be proven the this shape was produced at Vasart Ltd.

With paperweights that cross the name change divide they are simply labeled transitional.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: KevinH on July 16, 2012, 11:07:39 PM
I like that (blue text) description Frank. It is succinct and accurate (in my opinion) and clarifies that there is still research to be done.

And I do think that a definite "one or the other" cannot be fully determined whilst the question of whether rough grinding of base finishing at Strathearn remains outstanding.

On the point of "transitional" as a description for any item from the Vasart / Strathearn changeover period, the same thing applies to late Strathearn / Early Perthshire Paperweights items. Unless, of course, for PP we do know that Vases, Bowls etc. had clear indications for maker, unlike the paperweights.
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Gary on September 25, 2012, 08:32:59 AM
A quote from me earlier in the thread "To date, no Vasart of that shape of vase has been recorded though Strathearn did produce a vase that shape (V037)". That statement now out of date, the vase in the link is a signed Vasart vase.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Signed-VASART-Scottish-Art-Glass-Thistle-vase-VGC-NO-RESERVE-/300784509469?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item460827621d
Gary
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Lustrousstone on September 25, 2012, 09:24:20 AM
Perhaps you should ask the seller if you can use the pictures so this stays relevant
Title: Re: vasart? small adventurine vase
Post by: Gary on September 25, 2012, 12:53:44 PM
Below are images (permission given by vendor) of the Vasart vase (V 037).
Gary