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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: TxSilver on February 26, 2008, 06:04:43 PM

Title: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 26, 2008, 06:04:43 PM
I bought this old rose bowl a while back. The piece is very heavy, weighing in at 4 lb 1 oz (2 kg). It is 7.5" tall. The glass looks a lot like Burmese, but I think the glass may be thick lattimo with color added. I have found a couple of things that vaguely resemble the rose bowl, but I am really no closer to finding a maker than I was when I bought it. Does anyone have any ideas? TIA! The first picture looks a little darker than the piece actually does. The second picture of the bottom shows the cream color of the bottom better.

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9220
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9221

The piece is not cased. It looks like the glassmaker wanted to make the glass resemble clay.

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: shandiane78 on February 26, 2008, 10:29:43 PM
That is really gorgeous...Looks like raspberry sorbet! Are you sure it's Venetian? It looks to me like it could be English, American, or Bohemian glass form around the turn of the century.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: shandiane78 on February 26, 2008, 10:38:33 PM
Do you think the color would be considered peachblow? Looks like it a color range that varies considerably...
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 26, 2008, 11:29:27 PM
I'm pretty sure it is Venetian. The glass is way to thick and heavy for Bohemian or English. The combed-cane legs were popular in Murano. It is closer to Burmese than peach blow. Most of the peach blow I have seen has been thin with a white inlay. This vase is as thick as a pottery pot.

It shares a lot of its design features with rose bowls by Stevens & Williams, except the S&W vases are dainty. It may be that someone was making a rose bowl to look like it was Venetian, but I have a feeling that it is Venetian.

Hope someone will have an idea who made this type of glass,
Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: Ivo on February 27, 2008, 07:15:06 AM
Anything peachblow and overornamented just screams "Fenton" at me. I would think an Italian attribution is highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 27, 2008, 02:42:07 PM
Shandiane, I checked some of the peachblow rose bowls and think you might be right. Many of them are heavier and dark inside. Thanks for the new thoughts on the bowl. Maybe looking at peachblow will lead to something.

Ivo, thanks for the Fenton suggestion. I don't get a Fenton feel for the piece, but they did do a variety of things. I will have to look more at the North American companies. It is nice to get some new ideas. I had reached a dead end in my search.

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: shandiane78 on February 27, 2008, 04:08:19 PM
I agree it doesn't look like Fenton. I do think it could be North American though.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 27, 2008, 04:36:57 PM
I ran across some Gunderson Pairpoint glass that looks very similar. I haven't found anything with the applied leaves yet, though. Still looking...

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 27, 2008, 07:08:47 PM
I found a Gunderson Pairpoint bowl on eBay (item 250219101118) that has similar glass and the same raspberry prunt on bottom. I have a feeling it is what my bowl is. Thank you, shandianne and Ivo, for pointing me in the right direction. I think we have an ID now.

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: shandiane78 on February 27, 2008, 08:53:08 PM
That's great! If you want to get some good informed opinons, there's at least one member on the Ebay pottery and glass board who might be able to confirm your ID, or give some more possibilities. Her name is Kristi "krsilber". It's a gorgeous piece!
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 27, 2008, 10:31:15 PM
Thanks, shandianne. I don't belong to any eBay groups, but it could be worth my time to join this one. I spent a little time wading through Mount Washington and Gunderson. It's hard to say if the vase is peachblow, burmese, or both. The various sites are very confusing about this.

I found another similar piece labeled Gunderson Mount Washington -- maybe because the exact year of the piece wasn't known. I would love if the piece dated back to Mount Washington, but would be satisfied simply knowing it was Gunderson.

As I am writing, I am aware that I have little idea what I am talking about. This is a new area for me,
Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: shandiane78 on February 28, 2008, 07:13:53 PM
I don't think you have to join any kind of group. Anyone registered on ebay can post in the forums.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: heartofglass on February 29, 2008, 06:48:47 AM
Definitely a good Murano reproduction of Burmese type glass, circa mid 20th century. They did loads of repros of Victorian style glass, like Burmese, m.o.p satin glass, pieces with applied decorations like cherries & flowers, even epergnes with applied flowers! I have a few of these types of items marked with Murano labels.
The way to pick them from the real Victoriana is that they are what I call "fantasy" pieces, that is, nothing quite like them was originally made back in the Victorian era- they are ultra-fancy & even more over the top than the original pieces.
For example, I own a three-trumpet epergne in satin finished millefiori glass, a fine example of such a "fantasy" item of this type. It has the shape of a typical Victorian epergne, but they were never made in millefiori glass. This epergne is Murano made & dates from the early 1970s.
Mt Washington never made rose bowls in Burmese, even though they did do Burmese items with applied decoration, & Thomas Webb's Burmese item did not feature applied flowers.
Hmmm, don't think it's Gunderson Burmese either, it's way too fancy.
Ivo, I'm surprised you would give this sort of piece a Fenton attribution. Over-decorated it may be, but to my knowledge ( & according to the reference book on Fenton Burmese that I own), Fenton never made Burmese with applied decoration like this. Add to that that it basically doesn't look like a Fenton item, anyway.
And there's nothing wrong with a bit of "over-decoration" either. Some of us enjoy it & find it beautiful. :)
(Sorry if this seems like a rant but I feel that "smooth" glass tends to be considered superior to "fancy" on this board at times) :'(
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: Leni on February 29, 2008, 07:43:19 AM
And there's nothing wrong with a bit of "over-decoration" either. Some of us enjoy it & find it beautiful. :)
(Sorry if this seems like a rant but I feel that "smooth" glass tends to be considered superior to "fancy" on this board at times) :'(
Hear, hear!  >:D    :hug: Marinka  :-*
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: Ivo on February 29, 2008, 09:41:33 AM
I said "Fenton" because it is obviously American, no attribution intended. I don't consider "mid century Italian" an attribution either - i'd want to know who and when in a bit more detail. But I'd be quite happy to point at Gunderson, who did reproductions of Mt.Washington peachblow rose bowls in the 1950s in quite a dark shade - according to Johanna Billings' book.  And "overdecorated" is a stylistic feature which may identify the region is was produced in or for - not a condemnation.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: Leni on February 29, 2008, 09:51:30 AM
"overdecorated" is a stylistic feature which may identify the region is was produced in or for - not a condemnation.
Good point!  Some of us are obviously too sensitive to the connotations attached to the word 'over' - as in 'over the top' or 'over = too much'  ::)

;)
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: heartofglass on February 29, 2008, 10:31:14 AM
I have both of Johanna Billings' books, the one on rose bowls, and the one on peach blow glass.
It is the issue of applied decoration on this particular item in question that I'm trying to draw attention to-yes, Mt Washington did this applied decorated Burmese in the 19th century, thus making it an "American style".
However, it also makes it a desirable target for reproductions, aimed at the American market, at the period when Victorian art glass was a hot area for collectors (unlike today) eg, the mid 20th century.
Read Ms. Billings' chapter on Italian rose bowls for confirmation. She, unlike myself, is a published author, thus lending her more credibility in the eyes of some, nonetheless she, like my humble self, is unable to name the Italian manufacturers responsible for these repro items!
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 29, 2008, 01:12:03 PM
I've learned not to be offended by things online. The vase is definitely over-decorated, but it is what makes it different. My original thoughts that is was Venetian was that it reminded me of the Fratelli Toso applied-cherry pieces in the way the functional canes became the stems of the decoration. I've attached a picture of one their satinized cruets.

The surface of the rose bowl is rather sleek with faint polishing lines that orbit the bowl. As mentioned before, it looks like clay. I have only owned one Burmese piece -- a Fenton -- and it felt much different than the rose bowl feels. It is difficult to say that it is Burmese without knowing more about the different types. Burmese-like may be a good term for it.

Thanks for all the input. I have a feeling that this is a rather uncommon piece. I had been considering Murano companies such as Fratelli Toso or Barovier-Seguso-Ferro because of the feet and leaves. I hope someone will identify the over-the-top decoration style. I'm glad that I enjoy glass puzzles, because this vase definitely is one.

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 29, 2008, 03:05:20 PM
BTW, the rose bowl has a negative black light test. The whole bowl, including the cream-colored areas, has a purple glow under black light.

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: shandiane78 on February 29, 2008, 04:50:44 PM
So, it may be Venetian after all! Anita, would you mind if I posted it for some more opinions on the ebay board? I'm aware of the mid century Italian glass in Victorian styles, but I'm no good at spotting the difference. The people I have in mind may be able to confirm Marinka's suspicions.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on February 29, 2008, 05:27:20 PM
Shandiane, you are welcome to use the pictures. I am working on a couple of other pieces right now (probably Rindskopf), so I haven't been able to do much more on the rose bowl. The negative blacklight test may say a lot about what the glass is. From the little I read, the Gunderson and Mount Washington pieces will have a positive blacklight test. I don't know if this is true, though, because the sources were not experts.

Thanks for your help!
Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: heartofglass on March 01, 2008, 07:28:33 AM
Hi Anita,
thanks for posting the photo of the cherry cruet, & mentioning that it is by Fratelli Toso, that is very interesting to find out. I happen have a big basket in the very same style, purchased on Ebay just over a year ago.
The negative blacklight test rules it out as true Burmese, so "Burmese like" is a reasonable description.
Real Burmese, whether the Victorian originals by Webb & Mt Washington, or the more recent Fenton items, contain uranium, thus producing a green glow under the blacklight.
The texture is another tell-tale area. Victorian era Burmese (the satin finished type) & other satin glass, has an incredibly silky smooth texture. It was created by applying "white acid" to the item.
Later satin finish glass, dating from the mid 20th century like this rose bowl (& the Fenton Burmese item you had) received their texture from sandblasting rather than acid. This is why the texture is somewhat slightly granular, like the surface of unglazed clay, as you previously mentioned.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on March 01, 2008, 04:12:37 PM
Heartofglass, thank you for the information about burmese and blacklight. I never know how much credence to give to things written on eBay, especially when the people write they are not experts. The vase may be lattimo colored to resemble Burmese or clay. If it is, Venetian is probably a very good guess for it.

I have had several of the applied cherry pieces like the cruet. Most of them have had KB Import labels on them. KB handled FT and some other companies, so I wasn't sure about the attribution. Then I ran across two pieces in the series -- a paperweight and a small vase -- that had the Fratelli Toso label. It is nice to find pieces with a definite label. Assuming no one else copied the look, the satinized cherry pieces are probably all made by FT. They made several types of cruets with 1960s designs. I suspect that the cherry series was made during this period. It was a productive time for FT. I'm glad the picture helped.

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: jsmeasell on March 01, 2008, 04:31:13 PM
It's NOT a Fenton piece. I agree that "mid-1960s Italian" is the likely answer, but the sources I need to check are not at hand until Monday.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on March 01, 2008, 04:44:30 PM
I found the same rose bowl when I was looking for something else. It is Artfact Lot 1581, http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=1WFWQR9R. It is not attributed and is called peachblow. I don't subscribe to Artfact, so wasn't able to look beyond the opening page without giving my credit card number.

Is Artfact a good site? I wondered if it was worth the subscription price or would the information be redundant to other things available online.

Anita
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: shandiane78 on March 01, 2008, 05:12:28 PM
You can go to the original source (Dargate Auctions). I don't see the price realized, but it had an estimate of 200-300. Lot number 1581 here:

http://www.dargate.com/248_auction/248_images/248glass.htm
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: Frank on March 01, 2008, 05:13:17 PM
$20 dollars a month for the lowest level strikes me as a bit high but the others charge up to $70 a month. There are various free auction alert services but presumably this one archives the catalogues from larger auction houses - if you only buy in the high-end market it is probably useful but much of that data, less conveniently, can be found googling and that covers all on-line auctions. Try their Free trial offer. Another $35 a month brings you a newsletter.
Title: Re: Venetian Rose Bowl
Post by: TxSilver on March 01, 2008, 08:27:33 PM
Thanks for the closeup and info, Shannon. You really know how to use the online resources! You need a roommate?  ;D Just kidding, don't worry.

Now for a surprise -- one that I really expected, to tell the truth. It is my rose bowl in the Dargate auction. The bowl in the auction has the same black spot and leftover glass strings between leaves as mine. The clencher is that my bowl has two nicely repaired leaves and one missing flower. One of these repairs is visible on the leaf farthest to the left. (I know what to look for, so can pick it out. The other repair and missing petal are on the other side, where we can't see them.)

The auction gives me a good idea of what it would be worth if undamaged. I often wonder, however, how someone estimates a value if they do not know what they have. I'll have to find a way to tell if it is peachblow. I guess it doesn't really matter, but my curiosity is up.

Anita