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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Trinket Sets => Topic started by: Jayne on May 31, 2012, 11:16:52 PM

Title: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on May 31, 2012, 11:16:52 PM
For Anne or anyone else that may be interested, I just saw this Ebay listing for a part Sowerby Tynesyde Trinket Set in a deep turquoise colour, very pretty and not a colour I've seen it in before.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deco-glass-dressing-table-set-Beautifull-blue-/180895910026?pt=UK_Antiques_DecorativeAntiques_Collectables_EH&hash=item2a1e3c888a

I also noticed the candlesticks are not the same as the catalogue depiction. http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/glass_encyclopedia/glass_catalogues/sowerbyglass_catalogues/sowerbyglass_catalogue1933-09.htm

Does anyone know if these are actually Sowerby Candlesticks or a lucky colour match from elsewhere? If they are a redesign of the Tynesyde sticks at a later date, or an earlier design, then it would tie in with our speculation on the possible "Maid" set, of Sowerby being quite flexible with some of their trinket set pieces.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on June 01, 2012, 01:50:46 AM
Strangley I have just come across the candlesticks in another set.

http://www.etsy.com/listing/82039773/vintage-antique-blue-glass-vanity-set

Does anyone recognise it? There is a RD number which is hard to read possibly 781083?
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Paul S. on June 02, 2012, 07:21:09 PM
this No. doesn't appear in the 'Blue Book'  -  which is the Glass Asscociation check list of Registration Nos. from 1908 to 1945.   However, the 781 series of Nos. do cover a likely period for the registration of such pre war articles as trinket sets  i.e. February to March 1933.       Tell us which Nos. are you certain of, and we may then be able to determine which No. it is supposed to be, possibly  -  there aren't too many in the series, something like sixteen I believe.        Where are you reading the No. from, by the way  -  do you have these sticks?       
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Paul S. on June 02, 2012, 07:37:45 PM
the penny has just dropped ::) - and I can't read it properly either.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Anne on June 02, 2012, 10:04:53 PM
That blue is just so Sowerby! :)  I have the pineapple and bows bowl in the same colour:
http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pid=730

The candlesticks are a puzzle though, as they look like a match for colour but I've not seen the style before, nor do I recognise the rest of the ETSY set.   :-\
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on June 03, 2012, 01:08:28 AM
Thanks for the interest Paul. :)

Lovely bowls Anne, such a super colour! After seeing the Etsy set, I realised they probably aren't part of the Tynesyde set at another date, I've seen the Etsy set one other time only, also this week on Ebay in clear, no candlesticks though and a random ring tree.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251073620521?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Anne on June 11, 2012, 12:40:44 PM
The ETSY set is shown in the Conway book on Australian Glass found in Australia, where it states that the set is seen with Rd. Nos. on each piece, as follows:
751081 ringholder
751082 tray
751083 powder bowls
751084 candlesticks

The Rd. Nos. date from 30 Dec 1929 and the number range 751081-4 was registered by Jules Lang & Son who, as we know, was an importer of glassware.    

(Source: A Century of Household Glassware in Australia, by Kevin & Margaret Conway. Warning - many of the attributions in Conway are questionable. )

Edited: description of Conway corrected to remove incorrect impression that it covers Australian made glass
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on June 14, 2012, 11:32:34 AM
Interesting Anne! Possibly Australian then.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Anne on June 14, 2012, 01:13:10 PM
I think not Jayne.  The Conway book covers glass found in Australia (sorry, my earlier post didn't make that clear so I've corrected my wording above to clarify it) but made all over the world (see an earlier topic referring to the issue of attributions here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,9585.0.html), but my feeling is still that this is a set made in Europe and imported into the UK / distributed worldwide by Jules Lang.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on June 15, 2012, 07:47:13 AM
Okay Anne, possibly imported then, thanks. :)
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 23, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
An interesting development, I have recently aquired the same candlesticks in Amber with the Rd number 751084 (see pics). They came with a Sowerby County Tray, Small Pot and Pin Dish and a Bagley Queens choice Powder Bowl. (The finials are similar on the 2 pots which may have led the seller to pair them).

The Rd number is registered by Jules Lang & Son 1929 as mentioned above by Anne. While Googling around for Jules Lang I came across this info,

"From Ivo Haanstra ‘Glass Fact File A-Z’: Jules Lang & Son c.1900 Glass dealer based in Islington, London, UK. Commissioned glass in France from old Sowerby mouldings c. 1905"

http://www.ysartglass.com/Frank/JulesLang.htm

So this is the third time these sticks have appeared with other known Sowerby pieces or Sowerby Style pieces. It seems they could well be from the old Sowerby Moulds sold to/commissioned by Jules Lang & Son?
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Anne on July 23, 2012, 07:28:05 PM
Jayne - I suspect Ivo is referring to older moulds from the late 19th century... but as he's on the board it's worth an ask for clarification. He doesn't read the trinket set forum though, so he would need a nudge to find out more from him.

With the Jules Lang RD no, my feeling still is that this is a set that originated in Czechoslovakia.  The one in your post above is as you know a marriage (or, more properly, a menage-a-trois, as you have parts of 3 sets!), based I suspect on colour alone. One thing we don't tend to take into account when we consider these mix and match sets we find is that many of them have survived a world war, and some of the bits may have succumbed to that as well as normal day to day usage / accidents. Anything that survived in a household could be put together to make up a set, as many folks either didn't have the money to replace such items or simply didn't see the need to replace two- or three-part sets with a whole matching one, if the mixed set did the job for them. I think we need to consider the mindset of former generations when we wonder how these came about.
And that's without taking into account resellers who mix and match simply because the colour matches or it looks nice.  ;D

Also, and it's worth mentioning here simply because it's along the same sort of lines, Adam Dodds, who is a board member here, but also who worked for many years in the pressed glass industry in the north-east (Sowerby/Davidson/Jobling) has stated elsewhere that if a customer wanted a particular set making up it would be done, even if it wasn't a normal catalogue line. So, we may  see what, to us looking at the catalogues now, appear to be mix and match from one glassmaker but might well be exactly how the customer wanted it to be. The customer was king then.

That doesn't explain this particular set, I know, but it's something worth bearing in mind as we try and solve some of these puzzles.  :)
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 24, 2012, 01:10:39 AM
Anne, thank-you I have nudged Ivo per your advice.

Of course I am fully aware of the mish mash/marriage situtation re trinket sets, I would go as far as to say maybe 30% of sets for sale are not a match.

A few things made me think some old Sowerby Mouldings were a possibilty, the initial Sowerby Tynesyde Turquoise pieces, the Etsy Turquoise set and Ebay Clear Set having a very Sowerby Tynesyde shaped looking Tray, and very Sowerby County shaped finials, and then finally this Amber set turning up with Sowerby County pieces with yet again the finial on the County pot the same as the finials in Etsy and Clear sets. I'm probably wrong but oh well it's worth investigating.

By the way what makes you think Czech?

Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 24, 2012, 10:17:43 AM
Kind permission given by janet2651 to use her photo from the link in post 6 on the GMB.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 24, 2012, 01:23:14 PM
Kind permission given by lilly.1634 to use her photos from the link in the first post on the GMB.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Anne on July 25, 2012, 12:20:38 AM
Kind permission given by janet2651 to use her photo from the link in post 6 on the GMB.

Thank you to janet2651 for letting us use her pic here. These items have the RD nos 751081 (ringholder), 751082 (tray), 751083 (powder bowls), 751084 (candlesticks) registered by Jules Lang.

The RD no 751081 which according to Conway relates to the ringholder is shown here in clear: Picture Link (https://plus.google.com/photos/100837367431612608739/albums/5706867199861991713?banner=pwa)

Kind permission given by lilly.1634 to use her photos from the link in the first post on the GMB.


Also thank you to lilly.1634 for her pics. The blue candlestick is RD 751084, the powder pot, ringholder and tray are RD no. 752847 - the Tynesyde set, which had a choice of two trays, one is shown in the Sowerby 1933 catalogue (http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/glass_encyclopedia/glass_catalogues/sowerbyglass_catalogues/sowerbyglass_catalogue1933-09.htm), the other in the Conway book.

Jane, I'm not sure why I was feeling in was a Czech set, but the more I look at it, the more I'm veering away from that thought and toward it being Sowerby - but if so, why was the design registered by Jules Lang and not by Sowerby as usual? ???

The question of the role of Jules Lang has come up before too here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?topic=46959.0

Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 25, 2012, 12:31:53 AM
Anne I think I read somewhere Jules Lang mainly imported Czech glass, could be this sowed a seed in your mind? The Amber sticks I picked up do feel a bit Sowerby to me but that could be in my mind too!  ;D

The rd date was 1929, and our first Sowerby catalogue images are 1933? Could Sowerby have sold off old moulds pre 1933 that hadn't been registered? I read many glassworks registered very few of their designs in those days. ???
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 25, 2012, 12:46:02 AM
Kind permission given by PastMoons to use her photos from the link in the second post on the GMB.

Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 25, 2012, 12:47:08 AM
One more pic with kind permission of PastMoons to use on GMB.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Anne on July 25, 2012, 12:53:21 AM
Jayne, I've been searching more references and found something in Raymond Notley's book, "Pressed Flint Glass", where talking about two patterns called Ivan and Marcel (actually the same design on each pattern) where he says, "Jules Lang bought these moulds in 1905 from the liquidators of the Lemington, Tyneside, works of George Sowerby. They were made in France from these English moulds."

The interesting thing is that the pattern on Ivan and Marcel looks like that on the Jules Lang trinket set: Link to Google Docs version of the Book with images (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wT21SpvLKusC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Sowerby+Marcel+glass&source=bl&ots=bdV3hQxDzx&sig=BiCjkW3y1Ueg-eMMROYtXFD1-M0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-UEPUKP5Dcqu0QXxyoHYAQ&ved=0CGgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Sowerby%20Marcel%20glass&f=false).

So, did Lang produce (or more properly, have produced) the trinket set as part of that range, either in England or in France?  Do we know of any Jules Lang catalogue sources anywhere?

A big thank you to Pastmoons for her pics too. :)
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on July 25, 2012, 01:42:49 AM
Anne, Raymond Notley's book quote confirms and adds to the Ivo Haanstra quote I mentioned earlier, and yes the patterns Ivan and Marcel certainly look like a possible match although I can't see too clearly. That advert is said to be from 1916, with an imminent ban on imported domestic items soon ahead, the ad is said to have an urgent tone, which ties in with the factory being in France, and also perhaps Lang exporting to Australia?

I think I may have read somewhere that design registrations only last 25 years before copyright runs out? This was regarding some Whitefriars designs so I don't know how relevant that info is for these designs but, if Sowerby moulds were purchased 1905, Jules Lang could have registered 24 years later in 1929, assuming Sowerby Registered them pre 1904. Hmmm...
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 25, 2012, 06:30:53 AM
Were the Lemington glassworks actually part of "the Sowerby" (Sowerby's Ellison Glass Works Ltd). Cottle seems to imply it wasn't; rather that it was another company (the unlimited Sowerby & Co.) run by George Sowerby
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Anne on July 25, 2012, 03:53:27 PM
Christine, I've not read Cottle, but I do have a scan from a 1914 Kelly's trade directory for Northumberland (copy attached) which give Lemington Glassworks Ltd, Lemington, Scotswood. Is this the same place, do you think?
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 25, 2012, 07:03:45 PM
Yes. There's a bit on the web about it but it wasn't Sowerby & Co by then it was General Electric and making light bulbs, etc. The confusion arises because "the Sowerby" was Sowerby & Co. until 1881 when it became limited but couldn't use Sowerby & Co. Ltd because it belonged to a Lincolnshire company.
Title: Re: Sowerby Tynesyde Part Trinket Set in Deep Turquoise Blue.
Post by: Jayne on April 11, 2021, 03:20:33 PM
Should the thread title be changed or topics split or both?

We have here lots of Jules Lang RD numbered trinket pieces and some pieces definitely catalogued by Sowerby as Tynesyde #1 but perhaps not in the bright Turquoise.

Sowerby Tynesyde #1 GTS Set Link:

https://www.glasstrinketsets.com/cms3/english/sowerby/tynesyde

Another thread here on the Jules Lang set for merging;

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50216.0.html

Also a reminder, to myself as much as anyone else:

While Googling around for Jules Lang I came across this info,

"From Ivo Haanstra ‘Glass Fact File A-Z’: Jules Lang & Son c.1900 Glass dealer based in Islington, London, UK. Commissioned glass in France from old Sowerby mouldings c. 1905"

http://www.ysartglass.com/Frank/JulesLang.htm