Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: flying free on December 23, 2011, 12:39:18 PM
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This pedestal weight is very badly damaged with an internal fracture, I assume an annealing fracture, so pictures have been difficult to take clearly. It has a round facet at the top and measures 7" tall. It weighs 2lb. It has four things that hang down from the top layer each with a bubble in the top of them (plus the odd random bubble near the bottom of the design) the top layer falls onto the bottom layer and the bottom layer is suspended in the clear glass rather than being set on a ground. I hope I've described it using the right words :-\ (obviously 'things' is a technical phrase ;D)
I'm curious to know something about it.
What the design is called please? is it a harlequin or a fountain or something?
Is it made from what would be called 'frit', it appears to be little 'jellies' of glass rather than canes and some appear to have aventurine in.
It was sold on eBay as Murano - is it a Murano piece? Who made it?
And lastly date wise, when would this have been made? It doesn't seem new to me.
Thank you for your time which is much appreciated :sun:
m
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Hi
These are known as stem paperweights or pedestal paperweights. They were mostly made in France, Belgium, Germany and Bohemia in the early 20th century. The design is a fountain and yes its made using frit. The presence of Adventurine usually points to Murano but in this case, the design and the frit makes me favour Belgium as its origin.
What do the rest of you think??
Best regards and a very happy Christmas to all
Derek
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I agree with Derek...Belgium / Alsace. I do not think it is Murano - which is probably good news. There is much more run of the mill Murano about than Belgian or Alsace..
Alan
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It may be worth noting that the basic design within the paperweight part has been given a variety of names. Whether the names given were maker-based, company-based or author-based is not at all clear.
Peter Von Brackel's book, Paperweights Historicism, Art Nouveau, Art Deco, 1842 to Present [English version] published 1999, mainly refers to such items as "5-bubble stem paperweight with x polychrome bit levels (x being the number of levels).
Other earlier authors tended to simply call these items "Stemmed paperweight", or "Mantel ornament" but sometimes with a basic description such as "bubble and frit decoration".
Although not usually seen as a stemmed item, the same basic design when made by Paul Ysart was called "Harlequin" (single layer), "Double Harlequin" (two layers) and "Triple Harlequin" (three layers). He also produced a design called "Fountain" which was not the same as mentioned above - it had distinct filigrana arms looping down to a single ground (either of solid colour or coloured chips) and with a central air bubble and air bubbles on the downward sweep of the filigrana. His father Salvador also produced some similar items but the "fountain" design is usually referred to (by collectors) as a "carousel".
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Thank you all very much for your help which is much appreciated. I found it difficult to find very much information at all about these weights on the net and my books don't have any of them in there at all. Kev thank you for the explanations and especially about the names of the designs- I had become confused about whether a double harlequin was the standard name for these or was the name only given to PY weights although I could see it wasn't a PY weight.
I had found one identified as a Meisenthal weight but didn't want to say just in case, and the stem on mine is different to the stem on this one, could mine be Meisenthal possibly then? Although I've read they stopped making weights in the early 20th c ? if I remember rightly and the one here is dated late 1800's.
link here -
http://www.poulbenn.com/Sulfure-Presse-Papier_63/Perruquier-dhomme-en-sufure-sur-pied-vers-1880-Meisenthal_2731.html
Merry Christmas :sn: and thank you once again.
m
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When I scrolled through the poulbenn site I came across
Bohemian art glass paperweight showing a flower of white clover made during the 1960's (http://www.poulbenn.com/Sulfure-Presse-Papier_3/Mini-Presse-Papier-Fleur-de-Trefle-Boheme-1960_3187.html)
and
Bohemian Art Glass paperweight showing blue and yellow ribbon flowers made during the 1970's (http://www.poulbenn.com/Sulfure-Presse-Papier_3/Presse-Papier-Fleur-Veronique-Boheme-1970_3191.html).
What do others make of these attributions?
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Hi Wuff
They are both Chinese paperweights - I have no doubt at all about that (and nor have you either, I suspect ;)).
Allan
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... (and nor have you either, I suspect ;)).
No - not really >:D.
Should we inform the seller? I often send corrections to ebay sellers, but have given up telling anyone their weights are Chinese: many people willingly accept that their Murano is e.g. Perthshire .... but Chinese? Noone wants to trust that information.
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oops - that is why I raised this particular piece on that site. I had no idea whether or not that id was correct.
So, by the way you are responding, do I take it that the id of the pedestal weight may also not be accurate?
m
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..., do I take it that the id of the pedestal weight may also not be accurate?
I didn't want to imply that: several attributions are definitely correct. This type of stem weight was (according to books on my shelf) made in Meisenthal - amongst many other places. So this attribution may well be correct - my knowledge of this type of weight is insufficient to make a clear statement in this case.
I have severe doubts about some of the "German" flower paperweights, however.
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I've also seen these tall pedestal weights described in some older books as wig stands.
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I've seen that description too, Sach, in more than one book. I think it was probably based on ignorance rather than understanding: a relatively tall, top heavy, thin glass stemmed stand would be completely impractical for keeping your wig on!
I don't know who first came up with the term, but it is typical of the problems you find in books about paperweights (and no doubt other things too...). Someone has an idea or theory, and twenty years on another author quotes it without qualifying it; another twenty years later it has become fact. Then it takes ages to unpick the nonsense. You only have to look at online sources like 'Hobbizine' to find out of date rubbish being repeated as if the author were an authority, rather than a fool. I have had one person quote Hobbizine to me as an authority for why their paperweights was an antique Saint-Louis (when the rest of us would have called it modern Chinese).
Here is an example extract about Old English paperweights from Hobbizine:
White Friars, formally known as the James Powell Glass Works, was founded in 1680 outside of London, England. When the factory first began, only flint glass was made but after 1845, a much finer sand was used to make higher quality glassware. White Friars millefiori canes were Victorian in design and became commercially popular after being shown at the 1851 London Exhibition. As with other English glass companies like Bristol and Stourbridge, French glassmakers were initially employed at British glass factories to hand down the art of making glass paperweights. White Friars continued manufacturing glassware and paperweights until 1980 when they closed.
So... it would be a good start to get the name of Whitefriars correct ....then to be aware that there is no evidence for Whitefriars paperweights before the 1930s...then to recognise that Bristol and Stourbridge are towns, not factories....and to be aware that there are no antique paperweights from Bristol...and as for finer sand improving flint glass, I have no idea what the author is getting at.
And regarding 'Bristol' paperweights, the Hobbizine author describes one as 'A paperweight has a purple and yellow pansy with green leaves, all in lampwork. A star millefiori cane is in the center of the pansy.'
Never mind...we live and learn...well, most of us try to...
Alan
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thank you once again for the further additional information, and Wuff for your additional explanation :)
There does not appear to be many of these around at all, despite using all the key words given to search for them
:-\
Are they not collectable? I only managed to find references to Murano versions on this board really, and I cannot be totally sure of the attributions of the others I found which seemed mostly to be described simply as French (or Millville which I did find information on) apart from the one I linked to which was more specific.
I have worked out that mine has an 'inverted baluster' stem it seems ;D but that apart still only that one link id'd as Meisenthal. I will have to request some books via the library system I think.
with kind regards
m
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I will have to request some books via the library system I think.
Peter von Brackel's book has already been mentioned by KevinH - that's the one to look for.
BTW - I find them very collectable :) ... here's one of mine, consisting of a stem with interchangeable ball (though I have only this one):
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I have seen quite a few of these on eBay in the last couple of years, usually being sold from Belgium or France. I think many were made in Alsace and Belgium, as well as in Germany / Bohemia.
I don't think that they are the most popular paperweight-related item for many collectors, but they are certainly 'collectable', IMHO, and I have seen some on offer in antique shops in France and Belgium with serious prices.
Alan
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thanks :) I like them - they appeal to me. I love yours with the interchangeable pedestal Wuff and I shall now look out for the book recommended :sun:
m
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I came across this quite by accident.
I don't suppose Vierzon might be possibility for the maker of my pedestal might it?
http://webmuseo.com/ws/musee-vierzon/app/collection/record/30?expo=5&index=17
m
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Hi there,
Well, we learn something everyday: I had no idea that Vierzon had had a glass factory in the past... We have a house a few miles away from there and I never knew about it (even though my family has been in the region for 600 years!!!)...
Many thanks for this information. I will make a point of visiting the museum next time I am there.
SophieB
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Several glassworks according to the translation http://webmuseo.com/ws/musee-vierzon/app/collection/expo/3
Here is the museum's glass collection page 1 (http://webmuseo.com/ws/musee-vierzon/app/collection?vc=ePkH4LF7jZVJDsMgDEWv4hsUPPDNtXr_RR-RGlXKpgvkePjPiCTmcT35uZ7-_yxez5P5Of37r5C3yWWrg1Wm3qZKWwpT4u9ta0-WE5umIJ9tHWE9sLmsp2A4Ft2GJ3SD2kuT1vC18M9zTHSDGL7jJ5xMcugGexC8OHFHU1h6i54Os-CgVYg4jElN4Re9A7uXaVIHQ0kt3NVwm3zRx2FnfScBw-N9jeT77X8Ap0laog$$) and page 2 (http://webmuseo.com/ws/musee-vierzon/app/collection?vc=ePkH4LF7lZVJDoMwDEWvYnGBJh7ynWv1_os-kECVuuoiMh7-cwTB-bmefBz3FeLz-OeEvH5f0teHeH4QeZtctjpYZeptqrSlMCX-3rb2ZDmxaQry2dYR1gOby3oKhmPRbXhCN6i9NGkNXwv_fI6JbhDDd_yEk0kO3WAPghdn3NEUlt6ip8MsOGgVIg5jUlP4Re_A7mWa1MFQUgt3NdwmX_Rx2Fn3UGCOvK_p_ByED2j-XdQ$)
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Many thanks for this, Christine. A really nice collection.
SophieB
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My translation isn't good, but from what I can find so far the first glass house opened in Vierzon in 1861.
Opened by les frères Richer.
There was more than one glass house over time from what I have found, possibly four over the years( but as I say my translation isn't good).
It looks as though the last closed in 1951 but I have found mention of a Society of glass makers there that closed in 1957.
All info open to future correction, but thought I'd add something as there is not much mention on the board.
m
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I came across this quite by accident.
I don't suppose Vierzon might be possibility for the maker of my pedestal might it?
http://webmuseo.com/ws/musee-vierzon/app/collection/record/30?expo=5&index=17
m
A problem with weights / ornaments of this design is that unless we can find an example to match the size and colour of the "splatter / blobs" and also the use of a colour (such as white) of "spatter / blobs" for a particular layer, then it is hard to say that we could prove (or even suggest) an attrbution. The same is true of the stems and feet - without true matching examples beyond simply having, say, a baluster stem, then a possible attribution is on unsafe ground. We may even have to go as far as trying to match the thickness of the "stems / arms" below the air bubbles!
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Yes, all understood Kev :)
I just thought it might be useful to 'log' the area as a possibility for some of the pedestal weights, for future reference really if nothing else.
m
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Hello
I noticed your question today on the internet and wanted to leave you a reply, so i registered quickly.
I guess your paperweight, also called porte-perruque (witch isn't really a wig stand), is from Belgium origin. I have a few of them in my collection similar to yours and they come from Verrerie Herbatte near the city Namur or Namen in south belgium. Occasionaly they can be found for sale, and even rarer they come as a pair. If they are not marked, it almost isn't possible to find the exact maker. Often the come with the pontil- or gadget mark on top, and underneath the foot as a Y or T. They date from around 1900.
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Tin tin thank you for taking the time to reply and thank you for giving another maker to search. It's always interesting to come across something new and have a name to search for information :)
It seems Belgium is the preferred option so far then.
And apologies Christine, my new email system isn't giving me alerts I can click into when there are new replies so I hadn't realised you'd posted links. Thank you :)
m
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I have found a few of these attributed to Herbatte but none appear to be the same shape as mine - they seem to be a little rounder rather than pear shaped. There are similarities in the internal fountain design but not really the same although I appreciate there will be differences to that design anyway.
m
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Hi everybody,
I would like to draw your attention to a glass making company that was documented as occasional paperweight maker a couple of years ago.
I also include some literature details, the books are in German and French. Unfortunately the only Internet source telling a bit about the Fenne weights was shut down recently, so "kulturpixel" by Bernd Ingo Friedrich has been lost...
There are some similarities to your weight/pedestal with the weights and pedestals made by Fenne in the Sarre Region, (around 1900-1930ies?) at the German/French Border.
The newest literature shows several illustrations of weights (p.105 fff.): 200 Jahre Fenner Glashütte. Edited by: Peter Nest für den Heimatkundlichen Verein Warndt e.V. Saarbrücken-Völklingen 2014. ISBN 3-9809990-9-2
http://www.heimatkundlicher-verein-warndt.eu/
Kind regards, Erhard
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Unfortunately the only Internet source telling a bit about the Fenne weights was shut down recently, so "kulturpixel" by Bernd Ingo Friedrich has been lost...
At least the texts can still be read under http://web.archive.org/web/20150503084423/http://briefbeschwerer.kulturpixel.de/, although for many pages the images have not been archived.
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oh that was a lovely site - how awful to have lost that information.
Erhard thank you very much for helping me with information.
I'm hopeful that one day this will be positively identified. It was beautifully made.
m
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Thanks all for the discussions in this thread. I have recently come across a pair of pedestal weights that bear close resemblance to some of the ones discussed here. Thought some of you may be interested in taking a look and offering your opinions:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62133.new.html#new
[Mod: Please make all responses about Wyman's items in the new thread linked to above. A moderator can merge the threads later if needed.]
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Another type here apparently from a glass house I've never heard of and came across accidentally searching for something else entirely:
Glasshutte Wolterdingen
an example that says it is from there:
https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/664212310/antiker-vintage-paperweight
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Another type here apparently from a glass house I've never heard of and came across accidentally searching for something else entirely:
Glasshutte Wolterdingen.
A quick internet search came up with a description of an open air play (https://www.wolterdingen.de/index.php?ka=1&ska=2&idn=336). The review gives some detail: there was a glass house in St.Märgen, in operation 1683-1727. Then the glass makers moved to Wolterdingen.
To my knowledge glass makers would move on to a new location after a few decades, having used up all the wood nearby. So I would assume the glass house in Wolterdingen was given up well before 1800 ... and I don't think the pedestal weight on etsy is that old.
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Glass horse here in a museum collection from Glashutte Wolterdingen second half 19th century (scroll down to see horse and id) :
http://www.hvg-dgg.de/museen/franziskaner-museum-villingen.html
Also this on same link:
Kanne, Glashütte Wolterdingen, um 1880-1910
so perhaps in some format a glasshouse in Wolterdingen at least around end 19th century?
Two interesting paperweights on that link at the bottom as well- apparently 2nd half 19th.
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These items are seen here quite a lot and as mentioned before, often as 'porte-perruque' or wig stands.
I've always thought them to be too low for that and in a book that I have got on Belgian glass, they're listed as 'boules de cheminée', decorative ornaments to put on your chimney breast, preferably a pair, but no function or use besides that..
There's one listed for VSL Herbatte division, first half of the 20th C, same drop shape but the stem of the foot is slightly different. I can't comment on the colours as it's a black & white image :-\
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These remind me of glass darning balls, that were made both round and pear, or egg, shaped, with stems to hold. It would seem a practical idea to add a foot to stop it rolling away. Just a thought.
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I think they were just genuinely used as chimney pieces to be fair Catshome - ie. pretty things to stand on a mantlepiece.
I sew. I can't imagine using this as a darning sock or for anything sewing related at all. It's heavy for a start but would just tip over if I tried to put something on it. Wooden darning mushrooms would have been/ can still be much more useful.
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Interesting suggestion but would the stem be long enough for a hand to hold onto it?
Wooden mushrooms for darning etc usually only have a handle, not a foot.
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It really was just a thought after seeing this
https://www.rubylane.com/item/589310-wth62009-4123/19th-Century-Blown-South-Jersey-Amber
And thinking how impractical it would be to have something glass that could roll off the table, which lead to remembering this thread and thinking a foot would make sense to stand it on when not in use. The piece in the link is 5.5" high but, if I read it correctly, the handle is only 3.5", so 7" in OP would appear long enough. I even thought Wuff's piece with stand could be a stand for the glass darning eggs that do not have handles.
There is a thread here about a darning bulb which appears to have a foot, although there is no profile picture so it's not completely clear.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?topic=16855.0
Not trying to argue the case for it, but wanted to show the thought process that lead to the suggestion so you won't think I'm completely crazy! It even crossed my mind that it could have been an end of day piece, using a left over stem from a wine glass and making something useful and decorative to take home. But I think it was after 4am by then, so I was probably getting a bit carried away.
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Glass horse here in a museum collection from Glashütte Wolterdingen second half 19th century (scroll down to see horse and id):
http://www.hvg-dgg.de/museen/franziskaner-museum-villingen.html
Also this on same link: Kanne, Glashütte Wolterdingen, um 1880-1910
I have done a bit more research - and there seem to be two time periods of glass production in Wolterdingen.
1) Glass production has a long tradition in the Black Forest. The "story" behind the open air play I had mentioned above, falls in this pre-1800 time frame.
2) I have found an article on glass production in Wolterdingen on https://almanach-sbk.de/home-mobil/2-uncategorised/49-almanach1985.html (in German - but if you want to read it, click on "Jetzt im Almanach 1985 blättern!" and then scroll to page 78, includes a few images). According to this, a new glass factory was set up in Wolteringen in 1844. Ownership changed several times, until the factory was finally closed down in 1902.