Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Ambergreen on February 15, 2007, 06:28:05 AM
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I would appreciate someone's expert opinion on this glass basket (possibly Fenton). The arms of the basket appear like twigs and there seems to be two cracks across one of the arms. However, the cracks don't show right through the glass so I was wondering if they may be a flaw from when the piece was made?
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5155
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5156
Would appreciate your thoughts on this.
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Could be a manufacturing flaw, like a 'straw mark' or when the glass cooled, but it might depend on how strict Fenton were on quality control.
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Fenton are very strict on Quality Control today, and have been for many decades.
It looks like the cracks have taken place when the handle has been bent round (I think that is not unusual). The outer / upper edge has been stretched over a greater surface area and thus has opened up these little cracks. I have some similar little crevices on the handle of an old Dugan basket.
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From what I can see of the basket, it doesn't look like Fenton to me.
Could you show a picture of the whole basket.
I agree with what Glen said and for some reason these small cracks appear more frequently on milk glass. I think milk glass tends to have less viscosity? edited to add elasticity (is the word I meant) when hot, I know it is very brittle when cool.
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One way of telling the difference between a manufacturing flaw (either one of those little manufacturing cracks Glen describes, or a straw mark) is to look for evidence that it had happened while the glass was hot. This might include where the edges of the crack itself were deformed at all, crack was opened forming a valley. If the edges of the split are rounded (feel with a fingernail), then it's a straw mark. (Is that correct, everyone?)
Speaking of flaws, I have two pieces with what seem to at first sight to be cracks, which when viewed under magnification actually seem to be streaks of elongated bubbles and frit. Is this possible, or is it wishful thinking? ;)
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A straw mark is a unique characteristic - I don't believe that it is likely to ever be found on a handle (unless it was a most unusual mould and plunger) - and it isn't a split in the glass.
A straw mark is probably best referred to as a Shear Mark. It is caused by the cold surface of a pair of shears coming into contact with the hot glass gob (the gob is cut by the shears and dropped into the mould).
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/ShearMark.html
I would not call a shear mark a manufacturing flaw - it is just a feature of pressed glass. On a busy pattern, a clever glassworker could drop the gob into a part of the mould that was patterned, thus "hiding" the mark. Fenton actually developed their shears over the years, and added a smooth knob at the end of the handle - the idea was that the gob would be cut, dropped in the mould and then gently rubbed with the knob in the place where the shear mark was.
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Thanks for the clarification, Glen!
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Was not that long ago, I saw an eBay description along the lines of: "Straw marks on base are caused by shipping from the factory in straw filled containers." ;D must have been from that Australian glass book Cathy that mentioned as having some equally bizarre glass definitions.
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LOL Frank, I swear that's in there somewhere...
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Yeah, the straw marks come from being packed in barrels full of straw is an old chestnut. In fact it's absolutely true that the glass was packed in barrels full of straw - but that's not how the marks were made, of course. However, you can see how it gave rise to the name "straw mark".
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Sorry, in a mad rush this morning. Here's a pic of the whole piece. Will drop back in after work.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5168
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Okay ;D Thanks everyone for your suggestions. It's really hard to say if this is damage or 'straw' marks. They are so narrow, that I can't get my nail in to see if they are rounded. Just noticed the other side also has these marks in the exact same position (left side high, right side low) but are more noticeable on the underneath of the handle. I have one of these in amber and there aren't any marks on that one, so maybe it is to do with the milk glass.
Anyway, thanks again :D I don't know what I'd do without you all :)
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That's a Davidson basket, I have its cousin here in canary vaseline glass with a Rd No in the base. No cracks or marks on my handles, although there is a hairline :'( through the base. No 176566
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I am pretty sure that L G Wright and/or Fenton are in the mix - this twig handled basket was reproduced in the USA. I have a red example of this piece.
There is only one shear mark on any item, the little separations on the handles are not shear marks.
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In "Fenton the 3rd 25 years" by Heacock, on page 88 there is a photo of my red basket (actually Fenton called the colour OR which I believe was orange: it's selenium red that is not fully "struck" and so shades red to yellow - carnival collectors call that colour "amberina" but I know that is not the "purists" view of amberina). It is Fenton's 1939 oval English basket (yes, a plagiarised version of the Davidson pattern) and was made in the "orange" 1967-1969. Fenton were making milk glass then too, so very likely the piece in question was from around that era (which was also prior to Fenton trade marking all their glass).
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Very plagiarised! You're so much better at this than me Glen. I'd have to see them together to tell the difference, or did Davidson not make milk glass
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My piece (as usual ::)) has no marking what so ever. Would love to see other's photo's of their baskets though :D
That's three possible makers :lol:, seems we might never find out who made this piece :-\
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I am not sure if LG Wright made it - if they did it was most likely for Fenton. I do know for certain that Davidson and Fenton made it.
Sorry for brevity
Glen (in a rush....)
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This is the Davidson one methinks... http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-634 8)
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OOoh, yes. Isn't it yummy! I've just found we've also got a clear glass one with the moulded RD.
I was talking to Steve about this today and he said he thought that he remembered Frank Fenton saying that the "oval English basket" was a mould they acquired.
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Very yummy Glen! ;D Also, sadly cracked as can just be seen in the photo, but as I paid a whole £1 for it in this condition I don't mind at all. :)
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Ooh, that is pretty Anne. Even with the crack. So I guess that I can assume that this design might have originally been made by Davidson (marked) and later acquired by Fenton who produced them without the mark?
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It's Lemon Pearline, Lyn... one of Davidson's specialities. It also glows like mad under UV light. :) Can't add anything to the Fenton debate though, I'm afraid - that's way out of my area of knowledge.
Chris Stewart shows the basket in blue on his site here (bottom picture on the page) http://www.cloudglass.com/VictorianOther.htm and he also shows pieces made by Davidson in Milk Glass elsewhere on the same site, e.g. the creamer at the bottom of this page: http://www.cloudglass.com/VictorianSugars.htm. Chris may be able to tell you if he's aware of the basket being made in Milk Glass also.
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Thanks for those links Anne. I might email him with pics of both of my baskets and see if he can fill in some gaps. Edited to add pic:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5218
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Anne, I emailed Chris and here is his response:
Having looked at your basket I think it is by Davidson. I have baskets in this pattern with the handles crossed both ways. The pattern on the basket is identical to mine which have the registration number. The handles were finished by hand so the way in which they were crossed was either a whim of the maker or possibly they were made in pairs – one crossed to the left and one to the right.
Davidson did not make much white glass after about 1890, so it is quite rare to find examples of these suites in white glass.
Incidentally the web site is wrong. This design is the 1892 suite, it was registered in 1891.
The Fenton pattern is slightly different. It has hobnails in between the daisy like flowers or stars.
Thought the part about the Fenton pattern might be of interest to others. ;)
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Very interesting indeed -thanks for posting the extra info.
I can't see any intervening hobnails between the daisy like flowers on the Fenton version of this basket though - so I'll blame my fading eyesight :) The Fenton basket looks exactly like the Davidson one to me - but as I say, maybe it's just my rotten eyesight. There's a Fenton one on eBay at the moment.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130079567330
If Chris reckons it's Davidson then that's good enough for me.
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A quick addition - I understand Fenton made their Daisy & Button items in milk glass in the 1960s-70s ("Fenton Special Orders - 1940-80" - Walk).
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Here's a completed eBay auction for the Fenton "Oval English Basket"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250084364312
You'll notice that it is in blue - a lovely deep sapphire shade. It's Fenton's "Colonial Blue" colour. If you go to the page on Chris's website that Anne gave us the link to, you'll see the basket he shows is virtually identical.
http://www.cloudglass.com/VictorianOther.htm
EDITED TO ADD: the handles on the Fenton items may also cross differently - there are two baskets shown in the John Walk book I mentioned above: one is red (Colonial Orange) and the other blue (Colonial Blue). The red one has its handles crossing to the left, the blue one has them almost straight and as you'll see, the eBay link I've given in this posting has them crossing to the right.
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Hi All,
I was not aware that Fenton had bought the Davidson mould and had been reproducing this basket. If this is indeed the case then I guess the only sure way of identifying Davidson baskets is to check whether it has a registered designed number on it. I assume Fenton would have removed it.....
White could have been made by Davidson. Red certainly not. As far as I am aware Davidson did not make red glass for domestic glassware until after WWII. Prior to that it was only used in lenses.
I must admit I was thinking of 'Hobnail and star' when I wrote the email - different pattern entirely.
Regards
chris + two new (well elderly actually) cats
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The Fenton pattern is slightly different. It has hobnails in between the daisy like flowers or stars. Thought the part about the Fenton pattern might be of interest to others. ;)
My final posting on this for now :)
With regard to the above observation, it's absolutely correct for most of the items in Fenton's Daisy & Button line (which actually metamorphosed into their Olde Virginia Glass / OVG line, in the 1970s). The clue is in the pattern name! - daisy like stars and buttons (hobs). But the basket we're discussing (the "Oval English Basket")- although always shown as part of the Daisy & Button line, does not have the hob/button motifs. It is identical (to my sore eyes) to the original Davidson basket.
None of this proves one way or another whether the basket we're discussing was made by Davidson or Fenton. All it shows (to me at least) is that the baskets are more or less identical. If a piece has the RD on it then it's Davidson. If it's in pearline, then it's Davidson. If it's red/orange, then it's Fenton. Beyond that, then I think we are not able to say on the evidence presented so far. Or have I totally lost the plot? :)
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Hi Chris :) I was posting while you were posting! Looks like our minds were also in sync regarding the analysis of this dilemma.
When Steve and I bought our red/amberina basket we actually thought we had found a previously unknown Davidson item. We got it at the Renningers Show in Pennsylvania, and so we thought it was a rogue English item that had been exported. And then we discovered that it was a recent Fenton piece - kind of shook us up a bit.
Fenton did take off the RD number! Beyond that, I can't tell the difference.
(Did I really say above that this was my final posting for now? ;D ::) ;D)
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My basket is in primrose with Rd No but without the pearline edges