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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Max on February 22, 2006, 08:41:02 PM

Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on February 22, 2006, 08:41:02 PM
I won this.  I'm at a loss to say why I bid on it, I vaguely remember thinking the opaque brown colour looked interesting...   :x

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1094
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 22, 2006, 09:33:36 PM
It might be uranium glass (primrose pearline) - it's described as lime green! And it is huge 12.5 inches!! All that glass must be affecting the old brain cells!

I think my brain cells are addled, this is my second edit. If it is brown and not green, it could be Greener, they did a brown pearline
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Ivo on February 22, 2006, 09:35:49 PM
Great item, maybe not your usual style - I didn't know you went in for vintage pressed! Wonderful colour and opacity, and by the looks of it a master ashtray. Possibly Venetian (gondola, huh!) but could be British just as well. Looks complete and intact - I think 3 ponds worth of congratulations are in order.
Title: Re: Vase Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on February 22, 2006, 10:42:23 PM
It appears to be in amber pearline, a colour not made by Davidson, only, in my experience, by Greener and Burtles Tate.   In my years of dealing in British pressed glass fancies, I have never seen this gem before, in any colour.

It is more likely to be BT than Greener;  BT designs were more innovative and flamboyant.    It doesn't seem to be a registered design, possibly because Sowerby were already producing a slightly different gondola.

Had I seen this auction before it completed, I would have put a much higher bid on it.

Well done.   If you ever want to sell it .......

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on February 22, 2006, 10:55:55 PM
Hmm...the wording says it's lime green with creamy lime at the edges - so maybe the photograph is deceptive.  :?  I hope you don't mind having a look at a photograph here when I receive it Bernard? 

I'll just pop off and Google Burtles Tate I think.   :D
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on February 22, 2006, 11:35:00 PM
Max — Lime-green pearline!?*?!    Impossible.    If it is, there has to be another explanation.   An Avon ornamental soap dish perhaps?

Whatever, even if it is comparatively (checked — spelling is correct) modern, I still think you have a bargain.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 23, 2006, 07:41:29 AM
I think some of the unknowing might describe primrose pearline as lime green, especially if it was catching the old UV from the sun right. I think we all want to see the photo please
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Connie on February 23, 2006, 09:40:55 AM
I want to see it also.  I think you got a great deal.

When I first saw it I thought of Fenton Cameo Opalescent glass which is a brown amber translucent glass edged in a peachy cream glass. But I know that is not a Fenton shape.

I am curious to see if it is green or brown also :lol:
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Sid on February 23, 2006, 10:41:38 PM
Hello:

I think you picked up a very nice piece of glass here.  It looks like it is opalescent vaseline but Dave (Mr. Vaseline Glass) may have an opinion about that .

Sowerby 1972 shown in their 1882 pattern book is a similar boat but different shape and they only listed two size 8 and 10 inch.  Thompson shows a catalog cut on page 25.

When you get it please post some better photos.

Sid
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on February 24, 2006, 06:49:09 PM
Thanks Sid, and all.

I got the gondola today.  You wouldn't BELIEVE the box it was sent in!  :shock:  Anyway, here's some more pics - they're not that great - I took them in artificial light.  

It's yellow/greenish, not brown by the way...  :shock:  :roll:

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh65oi.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh60ds.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh5zxz.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh605i.jpg

I think Ivo's right and it was designed as an ashtray...it feels verrrrry old to me, but I couldn't say why.  :?  The seller was correct...it's a shade under 12.5" long.

I do really admire the way that the prow is different at either end, presumably mimicking a real Venetian gondola.

There's a couple of small chips underneath where the base supports the weight of the piece.  Frankly I'm surprised there isn't more damage.  The main body of it is in A1 condition.

and...it's not Avon!   :lol:
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on February 24, 2006, 09:17:55 PM
Max — Great piece, valuable, and, in my opinion, most likely Burtles Tate.

Congratulations.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on February 25, 2006, 09:56:37 AM
Dave (MrVaselineGlass) said to check for a registration mark.  I said there wasn't one...then I checked harder.  Tucked inside the prow was:

Rd 190420

I couldn't find a designer for that exact registration number, does anyone know who it might be?
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Connie on February 25, 2006, 10:43:49 AM
Glad you could find a reg. no.  Hope that will help identify this great piece.

I know others are saying an ashtray but to me it appears to be more of a master salt or sugar. When did the use of ashtrays become popular?

During the Victorian era the table would be set with elaborate centerpieces often consisting of figural master salts or master sugar bowls or other condiments.  These would   have matching individual serving pieces made to match.

JMHO  :wink:
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: BJB on February 25, 2006, 11:01:04 AM
Hi Max,

Could the 0 be an 8 as reg no 190428 is for Boutlon and Mills in 1892.

Just a thought :)

Barbara
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on February 25, 2006, 11:35:16 AM
Barbara, very good thought, but definitely 190420.  I've even taken a pencil rubbing to make sure!  :P

Connie...you.....are.....RIGHT!  :D  Each of the stubby protrusions sticking out from the hull of the gondola have an indentation.  Now you've mentioned it, it's pretty obvious a small spoon would have laid in that indentation, the bowl of the spoon resting in the bottom of the gondola.

Thanks for your help!  You clever thing!  :D
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Ron on February 25, 2006, 11:38:06 AM
Quote
When did the use of ashtrays become popular?

According to the Collector's Guide to Ashtrays "ash pan" appeared in an English dictionary in 1857 and by 1887 was referred to as an "ash-tray" by the same dictionary.

My vote would be for an ashtray based on the four cigarette rests. I have a couple hundred packed away (waiting for a market that may never develop) and few, if any, are as nice as this one.

Ron
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on February 25, 2006, 11:49:58 AM
Just a thought.  The gondola (anyone bored of the flipping gondola yet? lol) has two large indentations on the base.

I was thinking maybe it went on a stand...  :?:
Title: Archive Candidate
Post by: Connie on February 25, 2006, 12:13:32 PM
Very possibly it fit into a metal holder maybe even with wheels. Some of the elaborate center serving pieces I was talking about were on wheels so they could be rolled along the center of large tables.
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on July 10, 2006, 06:50:47 PM
I've found out who made the gondola.  :D

I went to the National Archives at Kew today, and spent 5 hours trawling through the most fascinating and huge volumes dating from the early 1800's onwards.  Amazing that you can see the original documents and drawings from those dates, just amazing and wonderful.

After looking through the relevant glass ledgers - looking for Rd 190420, I came up with nothing and thought I was going to go home empty handed, so I asked for assistance and was told to look through 'Non-Textiles' - as apparently the glass was split off at some point and some pieces can be found in tucked away amongst pieces of fabric samples.  

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3955

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3954

I only had 20 minutes to look through the two volumes that were suggested, and they were the biggest yet...thought I was never going to do it...but managed with only 5 minutes to spare.  :shock:

The gondola was registered by 'Lazarus & Rosenfeld' of London in 1892:


So it is supposed to carry a condiment set/perfume set...and now I only have to find out who Lazarus & Rosenfeld were.  :lol:
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Connie on July 10, 2006, 08:18:01 PM
Great research, Max.  That is so cool to find the original documentation.

Lazarus & Rosenfeld sound like retailers/merchants to me.  Maybe an old department store?
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Frank on July 10, 2006, 08:26:21 PM
Lazarus & Rosenfeld Ltd were (in 1933) an Export Merchant, (Colonies and USA) based at 3 Bevis Marks, EC3.
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on July 10, 2006, 08:36:56 PM
Thanks for the input.  Yes, I'm beginning to like it now...it's been such an interesting day...and no, I didn't take sarnies, but wish I had.  :wink:

They could be an exporter or merchants, and they were in Bevis Marks.  I've found a couple of documents about them on Google.  I guess the next stop is Companies House.  :roll:

...but would an exporter/merchant register a design?  I suppose it they had a team of designers?
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 10, 2006, 09:11:32 PM
Jules Lang registered a lot of glass designs and they were importers
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on July 11, 2006, 03:35:59 AM
Max — Congratulations.

It seems to me that you have two routes to finding the mouldmaking glassworks, the set of punches used for the reg. no., and the base stars, both of which can be as individual as fingerprints.

Also, the glass itself may help identify the manufacturing glassworks.

... and your continuing research in the archives may reveal something else registered to the same firm made by a known glassworks.

If you bring it to Cambridge, I will have a close look and see if I can help further.   Have you tried taking a photograph of the number, or of an aluminium foil impression of it?

Christine — Jules Lang were factors, or, in the old sense, manufacturers, i.e. they would take a requirement and get it made, wherever they could get the best deal, not necessarily overseas.    Conversely, take care never to assume without other supporting evidence that a company which described itself as a manufacturer actually made anything.   Burtles Tate would have quite legitimately described themselves as manufacturers of the Percival Vickers cut glass decanters shown in their trade catalogues, as they obtained their manufacture.    All very confusing for the historian!

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on July 11, 2006, 07:23:32 AM
Thanks Sid!  :)  :wink:

Bernard, I never considered that that Rd number style could be a deciding factor in attribution.  That's something new for me and really interesting, thank you.  

If I go to Cambridge, I'll bring the (infamous now - lol!) gondola and show you.  :)  Not quite sure how to progress this any further today, i'll have to get my thinking cap on.  8)

Christine, thanks for your thoughts.  This is all a new area for me and it's good to get discussion going. xx
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 11, 2006, 11:20:28 AM
Thanks Bernard, I assumed that because I've seen them described as importers that they were just agents rather than commissioners as well
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Frank on July 11, 2006, 12:37:13 PM
Lazarus and Rosenfeld as Export Merchants operated in reverse to Jules Lang. There is no reason why they too would commission pieces for their overseas clients.
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on July 16, 2006, 03:22:49 PM
Max — See topic A Mystery Art Deco Blackpool Teapot Stand (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1787.0.html) for another example of the importance of knowing your punched lettering fonts.

... and remembering them  :oops:

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on July 16, 2006, 03:27:33 PM
:lol: Crumbs Bernard, surely no-one can identify things by the punched font can they?!  That's really going the extra mile...or is there a book published about them?

Well, perhaps that's a job for someone...listing all the punched letter fonts - wouldn't fancy that job myself though...  :shock:
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on July 16, 2006, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: "Max"
... Crumbs Bernard, surely no-one can identify things by the punched font can they?!  That's really going the extra mile...or is there a book published about them? ...

Exactly Chris Stewart's initial reaction to the ridiculous notion that a Fostoria American cube sugar / preserve could have been made by Davidson.   Now, it's in his book, and on his website!

A set of 36+ hardened tool steel punches is or was a considerable investment.   You just get to know them, particularly if you study plinths and reg. numbers.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on July 16, 2006, 04:43:06 PM
Not sure I'd ever have enough pressed glass to be able to make a comparison Bernard  :shock:  :wink:  Interesting point though...perhaps I'll start looking a bit harder in future.

I've taken a really good photo of the Reg No. on the gondola - could you have a look?   :)

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2583
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on July 16, 2006, 04:52:39 PM
Max — Great photo.   Can't be sure from memory, but it looks rather like Burtles Tate.   There will be plenty of opportunity for resolving this for certain at the Cambridge fair.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on July 16, 2006, 05:08:14 PM
Thanks Bernard, I rather hope it is Burtles Tate.  Hopefully I'll see you at Cambridge on 24th September.  :wink:  :D  :D
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on July 17, 2006, 05:55:20 AM
Max — another recent example of this punch font identification technique is at topic Russian vaseline dessert coupe / goblet / tea glass c1850 (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6130.0.html)

If you compare the unusual open-topped 4 on the base of mine with the 4 in the full factory mark shown in the PK article, you will see that they are from the same punch, proving that my dessert coupe is an original Russian factory variant (probably for the export market — without the Russian Cyrillic factory name) and not a French or American version.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on July 17, 2006, 08:35:24 AM
Oh yes, I see.  That was a great piece of combined detective work, and certainly helpful that the 4 was in an unusual style.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention...I missed it the first time round!   :x  :D
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Bernard C on September 21, 2006, 06:17:21 AM
Quote from: "Max"
Crumbs Bernard, surely no-one can identify things by the punched font can they?!  That's really going the extra mile...or is there a book published about them? ...

Max — With Cambridge on Sunday, I thought I would read this thread again, just to refresh my memory ... and I found this.

Please don't place too much reliance on books, occasionally of rather variable quality.   My little collection of books, journals, catalogues and pamphlets is fairly well sprinkled with pencilled marginal notes and question marks.

And don't forget that police forces worldwide have been using punched fonts as evidence since Victorian times, only in this case more usually through a typewriter ribbon onto paper.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Vaseline Gondola 12.5"
Post by: Max on September 27, 2006, 08:12:34 PM
Big thanks to Bernard Cavalot for taking the time to examine this gondola at the Cambridge Glass Fair.   :D  :D

Due to the style of registration font, the mouldmaking and production values, Bernard felt it was reasonably safe to assume the gondola was manufactured by Greener.  For myself, checking the registration font with another Greener piece owned by Philip Housden was interesting (never thought of checking fonts before!) and lead me to concur with Bernard thoughts.

There's always room for discussion though, and any other information would be interesting.  

Many thanks to all who have taken part in the Great Gondola Hunt, it's been an informative and educational journey for me.   :D  :D