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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 11:18:21 AM

Title: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 11:18:21 AM
I need some help please.
This is not my collecting thing, but I thought it was very unusual when I saw it. 
Either it's a rare piece of Davidson dating to 1933 or it's something else?

I think the bowl/vase is a 6" 283 but measures 5 3/4".  The cloud  is blue with purple streaks - gorgeous colour - I will try and take some better pictures as the blue is stunning.  It is completely matt inside and out - I think the combination of the blue and the all matt, if it's Davidson, makes it a fairly rare piece.

The block is blue cloud glass with purple swirls and all matt.
The block has an rd number on it which I believe is 783 ----- , not a number on the registered Davidson design numbers that I can find and dates to 1933, but the mould has obliterated parts of the number.  It's also a shape that I cannot find either.
Again all matt and I suppose must be rare.

The inserted metal epergne also has an Pat App no on it of 26246 or 26245 which dates I think to 1885 so was inserted and riveted into the centre of the block as a marriage.

Any help very much appreciated. 
many thanks
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: David E on January 17, 2013, 11:20:34 AM
Best I can offer is that a matt outside is quite uncommon, and blue is quite collectable. How about that for an impartial, non-committal response!  ;D
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 11:22:48 AM
 ;D
I try hard to be impartial...but you know how it is  ;D
I'm going to add some better pictures of the colour as it's glorious.  And try and get a clearer picture of the rd number on the block.  I love that someone has added the epergne into the middle and that dates to 1885. 
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: David E on January 17, 2013, 12:15:38 PM
I should have mentioned Chris' site, of course: www.cloudglass.com who does pop in often to give advice. The site is pretty much complete for identification purposes though. The flower support with central epergne holder (if that's standard) is certainly a little odd I think. But I think the 'date' is 1910, which signifies it derives from the 1910 suite:
http://www.cloudglass.com/S1910.htm

Cloud glass collectors also tend to look for pieces where the 'cloud' of colours is evenly distributed, but not where the cloud is too thin or far too dark. Personally I like the ones where it's gone a little wrong, where the base is sometimes almost clear, or the cloud is very thick.
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 12:22:11 PM
thanks David :)
I had scoured the site looking for clues to any of it but even on the 1910 there was no reference to this flower block or the rd number.  I'd not recognised that the 1910 might be a completely separate id at the end of the rd number but there were no numbers that Davidson registered that vaguely match the start of the rd number on the block, that I can find ?  I scoured the site as I say and couldn't find the block shape anywhere.
It gets better though...the epergne is solid silver I think :)  it is a marriage I'm sure as the pat no on that dates to 1885 but the block has a large hole as the centre which is what the flute holder sits in and is riveted at the bottom where the hole emerges.

I'll take some better pictures of the glass colour and cloud once my battery is charged. It was failing as I took those couple of shots so it's not a good representation.
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 17, 2013, 12:29:30 PM
It's a standard 6-in. 283 with  No. 3 flower block. The Stewarts say on the website
Quote
On the base of the frog can be found the size, the words 'Made in England' and the phrase 'Patent 7830/1910' all in raised letters.

The Blue Cloud is a standard colour, though as David says all matte is less common. Blue Cloud was made from 1925 to 1934
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: David E on January 17, 2013, 12:35:02 PM
Yes, blue cloud is a standard colour, but it is less common than amber, purple or green hence quite collectable.

New camera? You need a Panasonic Lumix (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51006.0.html)  ;D
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
I can't find this shape though? or one like mine that just has one row of large holes with a central hole.  It doesn't look like any of the blocks in the pictures  ???
There is a small one here in the link and it's not the same shape as mine. 
http://www.cloudglass.com/Frogs.htm

But if it is some form of the 3 it must be the 3H as:
Source Cloudglass site -quote
'Davidson also made the dome in two styles, Pattern no 3H which had the holes pierced through the base and no 3 which was not pierced.
Mine has the holes pierced through the base.
No new camera needed :) but need to keep the batteries charged properly.
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 17, 2013, 12:48:44 PM
There may have been hole variations; the patent is only the method of manufacture. The basic shape is standard though.
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 01:28:01 PM
ok, thanks I'll keep looking for a match to the shape.
But I have a query over it as I've not found another in that shape so far.  And now I am wondering if the epergne holder is a marriage or not.

The marks are very worn on it.  However the lion outline shape of the cartouche matches marks for 1916-1933. 
The mark next to it is completely worn off but the cartouche outline shape is there and that may have been for the date letter which  matches the shapes used for 1896-1933 London it seems. Need to check other cities.
So it is possible the 'pat applied for' no was first registered in 1885, however this actual piece may date to a period from 1916-1933 i.e. possibly during the time the bowl was made but they still put on the patent no app for mark.

Rather unfortunately the makers mark has the first letter worn almost completely away although the second letter E and the Ltd mark are still there very clearly.  I'll do some digging and come back if I find a maker :)

Edited to add later:  The second cartouche shape could be either the date letter for London 1916-1933 or the cartouche for the leopard mark for London which was for the same period.
The shape of it does not match date marks for any other city dates for 1885 or for any other period that would match post 1885 as far as I can see.
Presumably one or other of the marks has worn away as there should be a lion mark, a city mark and a date mark as well as the makers mark.  Or it's an import made to look like a silver mark.  I can't find the makers mark at the moment.
Thanks for all your help both :)
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 04:00:24 PM
this is a match for the part of the makers mark that is left on there - for J.E. Ltd  London
The link shows no name reference unfortunately, but they had a candlestick  hallmarked dated 1927
You need to scroll down and it's second one from bottom :)
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-JC-JF.html#JE
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2013, 10:31:04 PM
With regard the rarity of the vase, I've managed to find the information I'd found originally on the Cloud Glass site

‘Normally one surface of the completed piece was treated to give it a matt appearance.  The majority of examples found today are like this.  It is rare to find cloud glass which is polished or matt on all surfaces.  Such pieces are sought after for their rarity.’ 
This is in combination with it having the block that is also matt.  I don't believe the block is a marriage, as it would be too difficult to find a) one that fitted and b) one that was matt as well.  So I think it originally came with the vase as a two piece.
ooh I've just thought, I've got some black plinths somewhere upstairs. It might look great on one of those. (it doesn't, the black drains the turquoise)

I'm no further forward in finding a matching 'drawn up ' block rather than a domed block.  I had thought that maybe the mushroom posy vases might require a block like this as it occurred to me their sides are straight and narrow so getting a domed block out of one of them might be difficult?  but I've not managed to find one yet.

The silver epergne centre has to have been deliberately put in as it is riveted in on the bottom, although whether it was made specifically for the vase, or adapted from a previous item I don't know.  But it does seem the dates match in era.
I've attached two more pics that are slightly better lighting, but this is a nightmare to photograph.  The matt surface does not allow the deep turquoise colour to show well at all  ::) 
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 18, 2013, 12:26:13 AM
checking the dates, the mushroom type posy bowls were introduced after they had stopped producing blue cloud glass as far as I can tell. So that theory doesn't work  ???
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: exislegirl on January 18, 2013, 01:38:36 AM
I have a few of these number 3 frogs in amber and green cloud glass, (not matte), but the same shape. The only matte frog I have is amber and is a size 4, and has an extra ring of holes. I also have the same shape bowl, but it is an 8 inch version. And although the vases are completely different shapes, they are all matte inside and out, and in two different blue cloud colours, and one amethyst.

Unfortunately, I still can't post images on this board, so have put them in my 'Show & Tell' album in Picasa:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103416468472622115928/ShowTell2?authkey=Gv1sRgCOvir_2iz7Pj-QE#

Regards, Natalie     
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: David E on January 18, 2013, 09:41:20 AM
You need to resize the images to less than 800 pixels in the longest dimension. And when saving the file it should be under 125KB to be accepted. I appreciate this is quite confusing to the beginner: unfortunately I can't seem to find the original post to enable this. However, one of my sites does show this with images (http://glassyeye.com/glasstopics/photos-edit.html). Probably a little dated now, and thumbnails are not a requirement as this board creates them for you.

Quote
I'm no further forward in finding a matching 'drawn up ' block rather than a domed block.

I'm sure the photo on cloudglass.com for the 283 shows the same style flower block. Although this is the 4-in version. I don't think there's any mystery there, M
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 18, 2013, 09:49:54 AM
David I'm sure you're right. Thank you  :)
Natalie, lovely pieces - I think the swirl and the colour of the cloud on mine looks remarkably similar to your matt blue vase on the far right of your picture.
I've found one other matt frog in green.  No vase seemingly.
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: bfg on January 18, 2013, 12:00:45 PM
following this thread with interest m, did you see my all matte 3 piece last year?

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47820.msg269163.html#msg269163

cheers, Mel
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 18, 2013, 01:12:46 PM
yes :)
it's also quite ribbony isn't it?
There are very few of these about at all so your set must be very rare.  I think there is one on the cloud glass site and I think there is one blue vase like Natalie's on there as well iirc.

The curious thing is, without wishing to 'diss' anyone's pictures  :) I'm finding it incredibly hard to take a good representative photo of my vase... it really is a gorgeous satin sheeny finish and  colour, but I've not been able to represent that and it seems neither have others  :)  the pics make the matt finish look flat instead of glorious which it is in the flesh.
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: David E on January 19, 2013, 10:48:41 AM
Very interesting Mel. I have a few matte pieces in Topaz-Briar (my favourite cloud colour, and scarcer than blue), which I will be hanging onto. While I'm selling off the bulk of my cloud glass collection, the problem is knowing what to keep!

M. You could try experimenting with the lighting to show off the matte to best effect, although I have to admit it is tricky (you haven't done that badly, though). Using daylight as the only light source you could try angling the camera so that half is in shadow. That way something might show.
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: Anne on January 19, 2013, 01:26:59 PM
Pages 58 and 61 of the Davidson Glass book by Chris & Val Stewart have photos showing what appears to be the same design frog, M....  the pics aren't, so far as I can find, on the website. Worth checking the book if you have it.
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 19, 2013, 01:44:44 PM
Thank you Anne, no sorry I don't have the book.  But I knew I couldn't find the frog on the website though.   
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 19, 2013, 03:33:06 PM
Natalie are the frogs you show in your link the no 3 that you refer to as being the same shape as mine please, as I don't think they are the same shape  :-\
that might be because they are a different size I suppose or just the angle of the shots, but they still look domed rather than having the drawn up centre to them?
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 26, 2013, 10:10:21 AM
Raising the issue of the frog again - the 3" 3H may be stated as standard production but I've done much searching and not only can I not find another 3" 3H flower frog but I cannot find any 3" flower frog, or a flower frog that is the same shape as mine...none are.
  Mine is triangular in shape.  Mine is triangular in shape because it has only one row of 8 stretched oval holes and one large central hole that is larger by comparison to the oval holes and certainly is larger than any I've looked at on other frogs.  However much I angle it to view it I cannot make it look anything like any of the photographs or represent a fat curved domed shape.  It doesn't.  The pictures below are the most 'fat curved domed' I can make it look and it's not like any of those that I can find.

I found this
http://www.bullworks.net/ffg/engpg/pgrod/pgrod.html
which shows a picture from the Davidson 1912 catalogue demonstrating their domed frogs which came in sizes  from 2 1/2" to 10".
The picture appears to show two 2 1/2" frogs as the small ones - I think
And I think Natalie's picture possibly shows those type of frogs.
There is no picture of a slightly larger one which would have been the 3" .

I think it is possible that my frog is not standard production. Is it possible it was actually made to contain these silver epergnes perhaps or, with the larger hole is it possible it was made to contain something that was peg-based, like a figurine of some sort or a cloud glass epergne flute that had a peg base?

I've attached more pictures of my frog for comparison :)
m


Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 27, 2013, 12:59:41 AM
I've found one!
In this listing that's finished if you scroll down to the additional pictures below the listing, there is a display of a group of blocks.  One on the left hand side looks as though it is a 3" frog and has the large central hole and the 8 round it .
It gives a good view of the size of the central hole compared to other larger blocks as well.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SOWERBY-SMALL-YELLOW-GLASS-FLOWER-FROG-2-ART-DECO-/160676133071

It isn't matt and doesn't have an epergne in it though :)
m
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: David E on January 27, 2013, 01:40:46 AM
I feel sure the central epergne support was added on later. But take comfort that being matte it is uncommon.
Title: Re: Rare? matt Davidson blue cloud bowl,rare block with rd no on?1885 epergne Rd no
Post by: flying free on January 27, 2013, 10:12:16 AM
 ;D thank you.
m