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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on September 18, 2012, 10:39:06 PM

Title: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on September 18, 2012, 10:39:06 PM
3 5/8" wide and 5/8" high, rim thickness 3mm.  My thoughts were it might be new but I cannot find any references at all. It's well done, not flashed, a solid layer of red glass which can be seen in the cut edges, acid etched textured background which is quite grey.  Very well finished, no rough bits, sharp edges etc.  For a small piece it's very sweet and the decoration of one colour on clear has been utilised well in the design.
So I can't find any references for new and wondered if there was any possibility it might be older than I think?
thanks for looking and any leads  or links if there is newer stuff around :)
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on September 20, 2012, 12:30:13 PM
any thoughts on whether or not this could be Bohemian or Czechosovakian maybe?  I'm just thinking the colours are typical and the design also maybe? 
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 20, 2012, 12:33:54 PM
 ;D
The close-up does not look like a close-up of contemporary Chinese Cameo... but that's all I can think of.
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on November 19, 2012, 11:49:25 PM
gentle bump :)
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on December 10, 2012, 09:00:14 AM
On page 351 of Cappa Le Genie Verrier d'L'Europe there is a vase by Cristallerie de Nancy, that seems to use this dark red very flat glossy cameo on an acid etched cameo vase.  The design detail is also stylised like the pin dish although a different decoration. The difference is that the vase is very thick and deep cut, but could that be put down to a difference in size of the piece? 
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: Ivo on December 10, 2012, 11:13:28 AM
To me it whispers "Belgium".
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on December 10, 2012, 11:17:29 AM
Thanks Ivo, I'll have a look round.
p.s. Belgium old or more contemporary please?  any thoughts? I think it's old but there's not a lot to go on to be honest.
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: Ivo on December 10, 2012, 11:37:52 AM
Twenties, thirties and specific VSL. But not a shred of evidence, of course.
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on December 10, 2012, 12:22:21 PM
no  ;D of course not..but then it wouldn't be fun if there were.
thanks for the lead/ideas
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on March 13, 2013, 08:09:20 PM
Scailmont or Catteau maybe?  though it isn't marked and the design is more 'natural' than the geometric designs I've come across.
Any thoughts much appreciated as always :)
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 12, 2013, 04:07:55 PM
I suspect this might be related - and Cubby has solved it!

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52615.msg298692.html#msg298692
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on May 12, 2013, 04:46:48 PM
 :-* :-* thanks so much for remembering Sue.
and Cubby, thank you for posting.  I've searched on and off for ages for this, it's great to finally see others in the 'set' as well.  Wonderful :)
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: chopin-liszt on May 12, 2013, 04:53:43 PM


I'm not remotely as good or as efficient as you are, flying-free, but just sometimes, I do manage something. ;)

Cubby did all the finding.  8)
I just did a wee connection.
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on May 12, 2013, 07:43:48 PM
Sue I'm so happy you connected these otherwise I'd have missed it  :)
nd it's fab to get an id on them.  I'm a bit curious as to who the maker is or where from as I can't find much online on Touchard.  I did find a couple of cameo vases though with their name in cameo on them, so some further investigating needed now I think  :)  It's a great little range.
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: cubby01 on May 12, 2013, 08:56:50 PM
I couldn't find much online either but I did run across one Touchard piece in red cameo here.   All these shallow ones seem to be about the same size.   The yellow vase in this picture below is only 3.5" so that gives an idea of the size of the Touchard cameo dish.
http://www.theriaults.com/default/index.cfm?LinkServID=F1F6B52C-BDB9-3413-D6B0A7098C7BF120&cid=186&r=339&aid=47117
Title: !
Post by: flying free on May 12, 2013, 09:25:02 PM
oh thanks so much!  that red looks to be the same as mine and also the way the cameo design is done. And I like the ormolu type stand with it, Lovely,  Thank you!
One of the vases I found is signed in cameo Touchard whereas these little bowls aren't signed in cameo.  I'm very curious as to what Touchard was?  whether a retailer or a maker.  There are examples of French houses making for retailers and signing their pieces with the retailer name, so I was wondering if this might be an example of that perhaps?  I'm also wondering whether it might be a Belgian source as Ivo had suggested previously.  Of course it may just be a relatively unknown maker so far.  Very interesting...I love having something new to research.
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on May 12, 2013, 10:36:12 PM
this cup and saucer are attributed at 19th century signed in gilt on the base F. Touchard, Rue de la Michaudiere No 12.
http://www.bigwoodauctioneers.com/index.php/photo/show/516/322/
I'm not sure the set has anything to do with these glass pieces, but just in case...added for reference.
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on May 13, 2013, 10:17:13 PM
this cameo vase is signed in cameo 'Touchard'.
 It had reminded me of something and finally I remembered what - It reminds me of some De Vez pieces I've seen (see the link to the one on Glaskilian)
http://placedelours.superforum.fr/t10806-pate-de-verre-touchard
the subject matter is a bit odd for a French vase I thought,  in that it's a stag? I think?? :-[

This  one  on Glaskilian is id'd as De Vez -Cristallie de Pantin
http://www.glaswolf.de/Kleine-Vase-Camille.1460+B6YmFja1BJRD0xNDYwJnByb2R1Y3RJRD04MzQyJnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTE0NjAmZGV0YWlsPQ__.0.html

In fact having now looked at quite a few De Vez vases again,it does remind me a lot of them.  I also found one with a stag on it although different to the linked Touchard one.

 I'm just adding this for reference in case I forget - I wonder if there is any connection.  Perhaps De Ves made this vase for Touchard whoever they were?
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on May 13, 2013, 11:22:07 PM
see above post
This vase, bottom right on the link (unfortunately when you click on it their link goes to the vase next to it so it's not possible to view it in large format), is apparently a De Vez vase and it looks to be the same shape as the Touchard cameo vase I linked to above - http://www.antiques-belgium.com/index.php/Verrerie/Art-Nouveau-1885-1920/de-Vez-Pantin/Voir-tous-les-produits.html

See also this vase, which is two layer cameo only burgundy cut to a pink background and also signed Touchard in cameo.
It looks quite different to the vase I posted above but has some similarities with the De Vez vase I've linked to below it -
http://www.antiquesimagearchive.com/items/124725.html#

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5158131

Touvier was a partner in Cristallerie de Pantin  (Source - The Art of French Glass page 16 Janine Bloch-Dermant) - I wonder if the 'Tou' part of the name is anything to do with the 'Tou' in 'Touchard' - just musing out loud here :)
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: Ivo on May 14, 2013, 10:11:47 AM
not sure this helps - a lot....
http://placedelours.superforum.fr/t10806-pate-de-verre-touchard
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on May 14, 2013, 10:56:10 AM
Hi Ivo
that was the vase I linked to, two posts above.  I think it's very reminiscent of De Vez vases, which is why I was wondering if there was a possible connection between De Vez (Cristallerie Pantin) and the Touchard of that vase and our little bowls :)
m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or any poss of older?
Post by: flying free on August 25, 2013, 04:11:26 PM
there's another for sale here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200910364672?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
quite a strange depiction - does anyone recognise what it might be? 
thanks
m
edited to add link to other thread with touchard dragonfly bowl and more information

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,44168.msg245947.html#msg245947

and this thread also
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52615.msg298669.html#msg298669
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on September 02, 2021, 09:20:00 PM
A lilac cut to white cameo glass vase with a scenic depiction of ... err Venice ... is it  ???  signed in cameo 'Touchard' . 27cm high with cameo leaves cut around the neck and outer rim.

Lovely vase, lovely cameo, described as School of Nancy

https://www.proantic.com/en/display.php?mode=obj&id=821160

I've seen but unable to link (dead link) a set of 5 of these little bowls, all with different depictions in cameo.  Very pretty.

m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on December 05, 2022, 08:23:29 AM
This reminds me very much of a Kralik shape I have in cameo:
https://www.prices4antiques.com/Cameo-Glass-Vase-Touchard-Burgundy-Rose-Castle-in-Mountainscape-B124725.html

see shape here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51275.msg290709.html#msg290709



I wonder if Touchard was a retailer of some sort? I was thinking something along the lines of Robj Paris - see explanation of Robj here:
https://www.divine-style-french-antiques.com/robj-paris-true-taste-of-art-deco-french-ceramics/

However, see this item mentioning Ruffier, Pauly et Touchard being clockmakers

https://www.daelmans.be/miscellaneous/perpetual-mobile-machine-signed-touchard-paris-ca-1860-2461679

'T Touchard worked for A.L. Breguet as doreur metalworker.
The clockmakers firm Ruffier, Pauly et Touchard were active in Paris in the Rue Charlot ca. 1880.'


See also this cameo glass lamp signed Touchard
https://www.bidsquare.com/online-auctions/morton-subastas/lamp-early-20th-century-cameo-glass-signed-touchard-1657088

There is also this porcelain cup and saucer signed F?  Touchard, rue de la Michaudiere:
http://www.bigwoodauctioneers.com/photo/show/516/322-1/

And a full set of china here signed again on the base F Touchard rue de la Michaudiere:
https://www.schulerauktionen.ch/de/items/153-6-paris?category=glas-fayencen-porzellan

Also this table , signed F Touchard 12 Rue de la Michaudiere - so we have their address:
https://www.rouillac.com/en/lot-423-118713-table_toilette_forme_rectangulaire

They may have stocked various items made for them hence some being signed in cameo and others being signed in what looks like an inked stamp of some sort?

Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on December 11, 2022, 10:51:04 PM
this cameo vase is signed in cameo 'Touchard'.
 It had reminded me of something and finally I remembered what - It reminds me of some De Vez pieces I've seen (see the link to the one on Glaskilian)
http://placedelours.superforum.fr/t10806-pate-de-verre-touchard
the subject matter is a bit odd for a French vase I thought,  in that it's a stag? I think?? :-[

This  one  on Glaskilian is id'd as De Vez -Cristallie de Pantin
http://www.glaswolf.de/Kleine-Vase-Camille.1460+B6YmFja1BJRD0xNDYwJnByb2R1Y3RJRD04MzQyJnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTE0NjAmZGV0YWlsPQ__.0.html

In fact having now looked at quite a few De Vez vases again,it does remind me a lot of them.  I also found one with a stag on it although different to the linked Touchard one.

 I'm just adding this for reference in case I forget - I wonder if there is any connection.  Perhaps De Ves made this vase for Touchard whoever they were?
m



This is a different looking kind of cameo from DeVez - a bell in red overlay on mottled white cameo, but the appearance of the shiny surface on frosted base glass is a more similar look to the little bowls:
https://www.fontainesauction.com/auction-lot/devez-cameo-glass-bell_BF0408BB4C

Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on December 11, 2022, 11:19:21 PM

See also this cameo glass lamp signed Touchard
https://www.bidsquare.com/online-auctions/morton-subastas/lamp-early-20th-century-cameo-glass-signed-touchard-1657088




Actually just to correct this, I think this lamp shade and base are enamelled not cameo. 
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on December 13, 2022, 11:48:53 AM
link to picture showing the little cameo bowl signed Touchard in a brass frame.  The frame is on three curly legs and the cameo bowl has an ornate brass frame mount around it's rim holding it in place on the brass stand.
https://www.theriaults.com/sites/default/files/lot_images/cat-1109_331_0.jpg
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: Ekimp on December 14, 2022, 08:59:59 AM
Noticed this unsigned one that sold the other day: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ART-DECO-OPAQUE-FROSTED-ETCHED-COBALT-BLUE-DESIGN-GLASS-DISH-MAKER-UNKNOWN-/125647149036?hash=item1d412757ec%3Ag%3A%7EEUAAOSwzYljjM7L&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsBRGmAGVO2cGPda9jLwbBC%2Be6gJ8TQ8o2a56pU4%2F4zecWyYqpaVMPeZdb%2Fl68kQe2IiKlp10dALF45IcLoCVYkT2l8h1xqjGmlCI9Hxy5yHlE7KyWutaViQSt0UReKa9o0rOFovLoAZQB%2Brec%2F5V96AdU856WF%2FjN49Qhk9QaEw5Sq8ICRB6O1tvwbF6njs%2F1SEHNalX7V8%2BoIrAiHhYgJEaEgZv518qcqKkMXErRLGf%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-qBzfyhYQ&nma=true&si=P%252BgS6OfD%252BZGu4YAT18zE%252B%252BVJlrE%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on December 14, 2022, 09:22:09 AM
I bought that one Ekimp :)  just in case it's a link to a place. 


De Vez cameo vases here which don't look like the same production as the one I linked to earlier (pink and burgundy - I'll link it again here) however two of these in this link  have a strong pink background base glass:
https://fineart.ha.com/itm/glass/three-devez-cameo-glass-vasescirca-1900-molded-devezht-8-in-total-3-items-/a/5406-79187.s

Pink and burgundy cameo vase here signed Touchard (I have also compared side by side to my Kralik cameo and whilst it looks like it could be Kralik production to me(?), the shape is not the same as my red over clear Kralik cameo unfortunately):
http://www.antiquesimagearchive.com/items/124725.html#

The two are very different in terms of final design but the pink background has some similarities perhaps?

Another De Vez pink vase here - good close up of the cameo decoration on the neck which is stylistically similar to the designs on the small bowl I thought?:
https://www.bradfordsauction.com/auction-lot/devez-art-nouveau-cameo-glass-gondola-boats-sce_E784684ACF


Going back to Ivo's suggestion of looking at Val St Lambert, I can't find anything to connect them apart from the colours at the moment.  Think the bowls so far seen are only in an almost opaque burgundy and blue etched to clear and that vase in burgundy over pink.  VSL seems to be less opaque in their overlays, the glass looks more transparent, although I've only seen a very small selection of their output I guess.


m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on December 14, 2022, 10:30:39 AM
Another enamelled signed vase here - base glass orange and yellow  :-X not my cup of tea in any way at all:

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/france-manufacture-double-glass-vase-in-orange-to-25-c-5f44139b64


So there seems to be a wide variation in design on all these pieces signed Touchard. Different periods, different makers?

just for reference, Degue may also be a contender for the cameo vase and the orange and yellow decor but not sure how that ties in with the enamelling stuff or the little bowls really. Nothing I could see that links the bowls in some way.
This is sort of a similar execution to the burgundy over pink vase perhaps?
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/620/19-verrerie-d-art-degue-a-cameo-glass-vase-france-1920-30-s

m
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: Ekimp on December 14, 2022, 06:39:50 PM
I bought that one Ekimp :)  just in case it's a link to a place.

I thought it was probably quite cheap and nearly provided some competition….but trying to cut back :)
Title: Re: small shallow cameo glass pin dish - new Chinese? or older? ID = Touchard
Post by: flying free on December 14, 2022, 07:17:59 PM
Me too :)  It's been quite a while since I bought anything.
However they are lovely pieces of cameo and I'm really curious to know who was making them for them.  I don't honestly think the picture is  going to give any clue, but so far I've seen animals (birds, dragonflies, butterflies, cicada),  one design of graphic floral piece and this is the first one I can recall seeing with a scenic picture.  I think all so far in blue or dark burgundy red.  So perhaps they were designed in sets.

m