Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: stew2u2 on November 07, 2012, 02:22:51 AM
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tried to age this decanter myself any help would be greatful. i think it might by victorian about 1880 ish. stands about 18cm high
think it might be a water jug as it wouldnt hold much wine or spirit. i think the crest on the front might be an Earl or a Barrons crest. it has a ground pontil. could it be from a household and not the main glass used think it would be more decorated if used by an earl.
im probably totally wrong
thanks
stew
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In view of handle I'd suggest technically not a decanter (although you can get decanters with handles) - there doesn't appear to be any evidence of abrasion that occurs within the neck where a stopper would sit, so most likely a water jug or wine carafe. I think this style of crest is called 'demi-rampant' - this one looks a little like a griffin, possibly? - something similar, but with lions, forms the mark for Greener and Davidson pressed glass. This one is wheel engraved and looks as though it's rising from a coronet maybe - looks good quality, and quite adequate for nobility ;) I'm not sure about who is entitled to wear what - is it a Baronet that may wear a coronet?
It may well be c. 1880 - difficult to say looking only at the screen - you don't give any indication of wear, which of often a good indicator.
Either side of the main frosted band, and the central crest, there is a continuous chain of wheel engraved small ovals - a style of decoration which goes back to the late C18, but am sure was also used during the Regency and early Victorian periods - so much was copied - and the handle looks more late Victorian than earlier. No motto either, so no help there, but would look good on the table and might impress guests ;D
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Neither coronet or griffin are particularly English. More French/Spanish. Fairly well executed so the crest should be traceable... Note tail, fore-claws, beak etc. On coronet decoration close to the that for Marquess or Marquis in Spanish/Italian style.
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Hi ,
This form of coronet is frequently found on continental European wheel engraved glasses from Holland ,Germany, Bohemia and Scandinavia , many can be seen in the Rijksmuseum catalogues, yes Paul another publication for you but a wonderful 2 volume set, unfortunately pretty costly.
cheers,
Peter
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since I now try to restrict my collecting to British only, I think I can sleep at night Peter even if I don't have the Rijksmuseum catalogues ;D - only the one book this week, so far, that I didn't have and need. ;)
This looks quality wheel engraving, of which I'm a big fan, so perhaps I too would have succumbed and bought this piece.
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Intriguing I eliminated all of those countries except Scandinavia on the coronet Peter, but eliminated Scandinavia on the griffin... sounds like useful books though.
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" since I now try to restrict my collecting to British only, I think I can sleep at night Peter even if I don't have the Rijksmuseum catalogues "
They are crammed full of wonderful British glasses too !!
cheers,
Peter.
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Thanks everyone for looking and for all the info
i have been trying to find the crest all day i have found it on a few web sites but they say it is unidentified.http://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/stamps/ZZZ113_s1 (http://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/stamps/ZZZ113_s1)
photos of the base (what i should have done in the first place being a regular visitor) has quite a few age marks on the base
one thing i have noticed is the handle looks hollow whether that matters for ageing it. is it true that the ground base makes this made after 1800
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I can't help with your decanter but the base doesn't look like a 'ground base' to me. It looks as though it has a polished pontil mark?
m
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I can't help with your decanter but the base doesn't look like a 'ground base' to me. It looks as though it has a polished pontil mark?
m
thanks for looking. i dont really know what the difference as my glass experience is limited. i thought the pontil was ground down leaving a concave dip in the glass like people say with whitefriars glass to my untrained eye i dont know the difference, and can that change the date of a piece.
thanks
stew
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perhaps it's the word 'depression' that's missing - just to differentiate between a flat ground base (which this is not), and the roughly circular concave effect that is created when the remains of the pontil attachment is ground/polished out. Quality glass is often finished by breaking the attachment to the pontil rod, giving rise for the need to remove the scar by grinding and thus creating a 'depression'. Much C18 glass, however, had a kick in the base (substantial indent) which hid the pontil scar (which remained permanently).
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All glass that is 'finished' would be ground first - this leaves a matt/satin finish. Polishing can restore it to full transparency and happens after grinding.
Firepolishing also restores to transparency but the surface remains irregular (with certain exceptions)
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yes,sorry, I know that, however to me when someone calls a base a ground base, I think of matt ground flat bases such as occurs on e.g. some older Chinese glass vases or some studio glass. I would have described that base as 'has a ground and polished pontil mark I suppose'.
m
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Yeah, but be aware to grind a base 'flat' is usually done on a large horizontal abrasive disk, while a cheap solution for a large co, not so for a small operation where the grinder is likely to be vertical and smaller so that it can be used for more tasks.
Don know why I mention this... just popped into my head. Original comment aimed at Stew not M ;)
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thanks again for all the info
i love this site but the more i look at glass making the more i seem to get confused. timelines are my biggest headache to me this jug could be anywhere from 1800 to 1880 made in Europe ???
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look at as much glass and from as many periods as you can Stew - and don't forget to keep reading the books - assume you have both the Hajdamach volumes. :)
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look at as much glass and from as many periods as you can Stew - and don't forget to keep reading the books - assume you have both the Hajdamach volumes. :)
i have a few books but not those they are now on the top of my xmas list thanks
stew
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Just don't try reading them in the bath, far too heavy - both should have been issued as 2 volume works.
I've just thought...........if you hit a bloke from the nobility, does that make him a belted earl. ;)
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just ordered the 1800 one from amazon £15 think thats cheap 40+ on ebay
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Hi,
Had a root around and found this 1 of mine. A Light Baluster wine glass , Dutch engraved in the quality and manner of Jacob Sang Amsterdam c 1760 , A very similar coronet I think.
Cheers ,
Peter.
thought I would add the whole glass for those interested . :)
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thanks peter
really nice glass the quality of the engraving down to the talons amazes me
thanks again for all the help
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Not so sure I would call that very similar Peter. Those balls on the intermediate tips are quite common but missing on Stews - with the small number of elements to combine for various purposes any big differences like that are important. Also the jewelled bands differ but not as significantly perhaps.
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Hi ,
Yep ,correct, to quick with the word very,here is another group, again with similar variations , http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-dutch-engraved-goblet-depicting-the-first-5350115-details.aspx?pos=236&intObjectID=5350115&sid=
( previous blurb here deleted because it was rubbish lol , the OPs is obviously a ducal coronet as previously indicated , should have looked back before engaging the keyboard.)
I did find this though which again suggests that this coronet was used by more than 1 country , scroll down to KIngston Upon Hull ,
http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/yorkshire.html
cheers ,
Peter.
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Methinks we have it ,
http://www.myfamilysilver.com/pages/crest-information.aspx?id=79670
cheers ,
Peter.
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also found this same kind of crown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crown_of_a_Marquis_of_France_(variant).svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crown_of_a_Marquis_of_France_(variant).svg)
thanks
stew